US Congress panel accuses Turkey of Armenian 'genocide'

Finally.

People who are just saying that this is damaging to the Middle East, have no understanding the important of recognition of genocide.

The whole U.S. involvement in the Middle East, is backed by the idea that theya re spreading democracy, and freedom for the people, all the good sweet stuff. The recognizance of the Armenian genocide, is a must. For the United States of America, to be in good relations with a country who kills, who torches, rapes, and destroys a whole nation, is psychotic.

Originally posted by MrPresident
Finally.

For the United States of America, to be in good relations with a country who kills, who torches, rapes, and destroys a whole nation, is psychotic.

You mean , like in similar magnetic poles rejecting each other , type of context ?

reply to post by Drexl


Haha, nice.

I can't see why it's a must, dear MrPresident. It will not restore faith in the US good intentions. It's strictly an Armenia/Turkey issue, the ME won't care.

It's damaging because Turkey is the only reliable interlocutor for both sides. Armenia and Turkey made a big step forward a few months ago to hopefully relieve the tensions. The West can help by creating good conditions for a dialog. It will benefit Armenia, Turkey and all the Caucasus.

Turkey, Armenia to sign historic accord

It happened 100 years ago, why choose now for such a statement ? Why delaying it until now ?... The timing is poor. Of course, it's not an official diplomatic stance from the USA (or at least, it does not look one, still debatable) and I think Turkey will react with reason and moderation but the statement is unnecessarily poisonous. Actually, one could think it is an attempt to undermine the reconciliation or to capitalise on the warming relations to send a cheap "sitting on the fence" satisfactory statement to the Armenians by a half-heartedly recognition without compromising in a clear, undisputable recognition of the genocide. I don't understand it as a good signal. It's confusing.

From a humanist standpoint, I am happy for the Armenians and I understand how important it is to them.
I looked and commented at the potential diplomatic failure as I thought I was more relevant. I don't think there any morals here, only interests.

My Dad's side of the family fled the Armenian Genocide, so i am pleased to hear that it might actually and finally be officially recognized world wide.

reply to post by Manouche


You are argugineg because it happened 100 years ago, it is not worth recognizing. If we used that arguement, the Holocasut would not be recognized, slavery would not even be looked at, let alone anything else involving the murder of millions of people. How can you sit there and say that...
God forbid, but imagine your family gets killed, how would you feel if I told you "it was a 100 years ago, who cares".

The signing of the little peace thing is just because Armenia is going to die out because there is no flow of goods there. Opening with Turkey was the only way to provide the Armenian people with necessity, such as food. It was a choice that HAD to be made, not because they were now ok that 1.5 million Armenians were killed.

Please, do a little more research, and try to understand what is really going on.

Recently, Turkey has made some false moves in terms of Iran. U.S. is just firing back, and I don't really think this is going to pass anywhere. Look it up if you do not know what I am talking about.

Either way, to sit there and say just because it is a 100 years ago is ignorant, lazy, and inhumane.

I can understand the view point of some people who say it is just not the time, but than again, there is no good time for this. This is as good as any time.

With the 50 or so generals being arrested last month, which was probably a CIA planned coup, and the stauch islamist government maintaining power, the US now accuess Turkey of genocide..

The government didnt go in the failed coup, so now Washington will probably pick a fight, dont forget...if your not with us...LETS ROLL..etc tc etc
Who knows maybe they´ll invade to protect the Armenians.

You know...as an after thought, there must be a few of the remaining native Americans laughing themselves to death...for th US government to accuse Turkey of genocide when they wont even admit they did the same with the native Americans.

[edit on 5-3-2010 by andy1972]

reply to post by MrPresident


No, not at all. I am not arguing that because it happened 100 years ago, it is not worth.
I am saying that because it was 100 years ago, the US have the luxury to choose a moment that is not awfully untimely. There is no rush now. The US have accommodated not recognising the genocide for a century.
Besides, you may pretend it is an official recognition of the genocide by the US, it is not. It does no good, it's only harmful.

Armenia and Turkey have just restarted diplomatic relations. It can possibly harm the restarting relations and the article says the White House thinks just that. You may be satisfied for yourself, feel better or more dignified but it will possibly harm Armenians in Armenia. Can you have another pespective ?

Look please : U.S. House of Representatives Joint Resolution 247 - Sept 12, 1984

This new US Congress Committee resolution is not a move forward. You should consider its aim is only to try to upset Turkey and not trying to do any good to Armenians.
It's concerning a Congress Committee is undermining the White House diplomatic efforts. It raises a lot of questions.

I may want to look at your knowledge and understanding of the situation, friend, if you are willing to understand my posts.
Because you don't understand my points, you assume I don't know the history of the region or the current situation. With respect and a friendly tone, that is a poor method of educating oneself.

I just wanted to point out something to those that claim (or believe) that Armenia and Turkey having been improving relations with the latest agreement they have pledged to enact:

1. The agreement has to be ratified in both countries parliamentary system before it goes into effect. The bill has been getting serious opposition in both countries (See point 2).

2. Within the agreement two subsections include the following:

- (In essence) Armenia must agree to let go of its pursuit of the Armenian Genocide Recognition

- Armenia must settle with Azerbaijan in the Nagro-Karabak conflict

These two points alone are deal breaking on the Armenian side. There is no way the country that has suffered so much will just let go of the past for the sake of open borders. Furthermore, after years of conflict and tension with Azerbaijan Armenia has been able to retake a good chunk of land that (historically) belongs to them. There is no way they will make concessions to forfeit what they have reconquered.

Add to this the hardliners from Turkey who are in a constant no-go position as far as dealing with Armenia goes and you will realize that no real progress has been made.

reply to post by vegno


No one said it will be solved in a couple of months, it will be a difficult path. The point of diplomacy, negociations, talks is to reconcile irreconcilable political positions.
What do you suggest ? That they shut the brand new embassies and resolve it with a war ?

The relations are improving, they have begun to talk to each other, you need a first step

What is the US stance ? Help a settlement or prevent it ? It engages the whole Caucasus stability in some way. All the rampant Caucasus conflicts seem insoluble and yet there is only one alternative to negociations.

[edit on 5-3-2010 by Manouche]

reply to post by Manouche


I am simply stating that at least one major point in the agreement conditions is not negotiable. Asking a country that has suffer so much to just forgive and forget is not really something to debate about.

What would Israel say if Germany told them to just forget the recognition of the holocaust in exchange of large trade opportunities? Not a chance.


Note to add: The reality is actually worse than my example since Turkey won't even admit they did it.

reply to post by Manouche


I understand your point, and I am glad that we can talk respectively. I my self, am Armenian. I my self, understand the feeling experienced, knowing that your nation was destroyed, and the people are denying it.

I do understand the politics behind it, where Turkey is not with America, America is busting on them. I do understand that, but you saying that this will cause harm to Armenians, is wrong. The Armenian people, and I be Armenian may speak as one of them, do want the U.S. to recognize it. There is no way you can say it is harmful. We would like nothing but recognition, for if it does happen, Turkey would not dare touch Armenian.

"Armenia and Turkey have just restarted diplomatic relations", once again, this is a necessity and in now way, do our people support this. This is the heads of the government, who are more corrupt than the word corrupt it self. The people of Armenian hate this, they are enraged by this. People here in America who are Armenian are enraged. I know I am,I know my Armenian friends are, and so are my family members.

This "diplomatic relations" is nothing for anybody. If Turkey continues to claim that they have not committed genocide, killing 1.5 million people, they will never be real diplomatic relations. How can you befriend someone who attempted to wipe you off the face of the earth? You can't.

Diplomatic relations can only be a possibility after the genocide is recognized by the U.S. therefore putting that pressure on Turkey to pay up.

I know that this idea of it passing in the Committee is nothing but a mere attempt of America to push Turkey to following its orders for compliance in the Middle Easy, but it is still a sign of hope for my people, and to all who support our cause.

Thank you for your personal point of view MrPresident

I will explain mine further.

Turkey will never admit the genocide if they are in bad terms with Armenia. They didn't until now, they'd have no reason to from their perspective. The Turkish people would never accept it from its government. And no superpower has enough influence or lobby means to compel them to.
Armenia will never abandon its demand of genocide recognition. The Armenian people would never accept it from its governement.

Turkey knows that of course. They can't be foolish enough to believe Armenia would simply forget it.
Nevertheless, they agreed on opening diplomatic relations. It's huge. Give them credit for this. If they go on that path of relations normalisation, they know that at some point in the future, they will have to officially recognise the genocide, in 10, 20, 30 years. You never know, it can come really fast. History does tricks like that. I am not overly confident about it for now but there was a pre-requisite for any advance on the topic. And it happened, gratefully. You wouldn't have expected this only 5 years ago, right ?

The Turkish government stance is difficult domestically because of the opposition of the people. Turks are raised in an environment opposing to Armenians, same as Armenians towards Turks, sorry for my bad english expression. It can only be overcome with time, trade and exchange of all sorts. It maybe won't happen overnight. But it was a good show when both presidents appeared at the football game.
Have faith in the youth, when Hrant Dink was assassinated, many Turkish Turks expressed their united feelings at the funerals against excessive nationalism.
So it is not the right time to tease Turkish pride over that unless you want to make things more difficult for the Turkish government in front of its public opinion. Let the tensions decrease a bit, one step at a time.

To me, it's harmful to Armenia and Armenians if it delays a proper genocide recognition from Turkey.
The US must have played a part in the agreement between Turkey and Armenia as Obama and Mrs Clinton were attending the meeting. A few months after what Turkey feel is a big concession, they are vilified by American congressmen. Does it help ? Will they be inclined to more concessions later ? They may feel a bit betrayed now. If what they get is an awkward domestic situation to handle, any governement would go backwards.

Go step by step, don't be enraged, reckon that from a Turkish perspective, they have conceeded a lot by retying relations with Armenia because of what will necessarily follow. It's actually a sensible leadership from both sides to me.

To vegno : of course, negociations doesn't mean that Armenia has to forget it. Who would dare imply that ? It's obviously Turkey that will have the biggest efforts to make. Turkey can't simply recognise the genocide before holding talks about the reparation fees. Agree ?

It is a good thing that Turkey be held accountable for this atrocity. But Turkey is no stranger to such things. There is another atrocity the world has forgotten. The one I speak of is a genocide that took place in Turkey at the start of the 20th Century and chronicled in the book titled “THE BLIGHT OF ASIA”. It is an account of the systematic extermination of Christian Populations and of the Culpability of Certain Great Powers. As well as an account of the burning of Smyrna, a city of Christians that lived in Turkey since the fall of Byzantine Empire. The book was written by “GEORGE HORTON” who was for thirty years Consul and Consul-General of the United States in the Near East. It is based on his eye witness accounts and others. The book was published by “THE BOBBS-MERRILL COMPANY, INDIANAPOLIS COPYRIGRT 1926” so I am sure it is out of print but I found it on the internet at:

www.hri.org...