Strange. It says Jesus is 888, but it actually comes out to 444.

How is it that the main foundation the entire site is built upon (per the introduction), is wrong?

God and Jesus are one. Jesus is God. It is clear when you get to the meat of the page that the introduction is not meant to be interpreted in those terms. With all due respect I think you are nitpicking and not focusing on the main idea here.

I am not a believer in numerology, if that is what you mean.

How is it that some words they will use ancient greek (Jesus), and other words, they use modern day alphabets?

Isn't this comparing apples to oranges?

The same word, for example, "Jesus", gives two different results depending on what alphabet you use.

Where exactly did the multiple modern day alpha numberic value by 6 come from? If the Bible (or what ever source) says that it was designed for use in the future, they can't use the Greek alphabet examples which "proves" some of their points. If they say it was designed for the Greek alphabet, then you loose all current translations.

I also find that some of those interpretations are really just wishful thinking. You have inconsistant grammer use, inconsistant spelling, inconsistant plurals.

This is a bunch of random garbage thrown into a number cruncher. I could come up with equilvanet garbage using any "formula" someone makes up.

Both the Hebrew and the Greek alphabet (aleph-bet) can be used to form gemmatria = numerical equivalents for each letter.

In Hebrew letters, the numbers are not necessarily in perfect order:

Aleph - 1
Beth - 2
Gimmel - 3
Daled - 4
He - 5
Vav - 6
Tsayin - 7
Chet - 8
Dtet - 9
Yud - 10
Kaph - 20
Lamed -30
Mem - 40
Nun -50
Samek -60
'Ayin - 70
Phe -80
Tsadeh - 90
Quph - 100
Resh - 200
Shin/Sin - 300
Tav - 400

Then the Finals - (for advanced students in Gemmatria !)

Final Tsayin - 500
Final Kaph - 600
Final Mem - 700
Final Nun - 800
Final Phe -900
Final Tsadeh - 1000

There is no ancient English Gemmatria.

If you want to know the MSS evidence, you can google MSS 666/616 and it will show which MSS use 616 (oldest) and which use 666 (later) for the Number of the Beast Which is the Number of a Man in Apocalypse of Yohanon (= Book of Revelation) chapter 13.

He is called the BEAST and has a number (calculate the Number of the Beast for it is the Number of a Man and his number is 616/666)

Contrary to common belief among 'Christians' the actual term (anti=Christos) = ANTI-CHRIST does NOT appear in the Book of Revelation in the Greek texts itself (there are only 3 main text families of copies of this weird book and some early fragments which do not match the later copies very closely - so the book was re-written alot, despite the warning to add or subtract (shades of Deuteronomy's plague warning) at the end of the book...!!)

The BEAST was probably a veiled (or not so veiled) reference to the Emperor NERO whose reign was marked by excesses of immorality and hatred of Jews and foreigners in general (which included Jewish Messianists aka "Christians" in his day = he made no distinction as later generations did when the 'separation' from Judaiesm became final after the War of 66-70 AD)

616 - N-R-V Q-S-R = Aramaic for Nero Caesar (NRO QSR) - no real vowels, so V (vav) is used for long O

666 - N-R-V-N Q-S-R = Aramaic-Greek transliteration for Neron Caesar (NRON QSR)

Clearly the final editors of the Apocalypse of Yohanon had the 'divine' emperor Nero in mind - he was on the throne when the 1st Failed Jewish War against Rome began (in 66), and much of the book assumes that the Jews still had a chance of winning and that the temple was still standing ('go not into the courts of the goyim in the temple, for the kittim have occupied it') which took place around AD 68 - during the middle of the War.

Students of the Apocalypse often find PRETERIST interpretations the most cogent (from the Latin word: PRAETER - 'already', meaning the prophecies in the book have 'already happened' during the Jewish War against Rome).

Most of the 'prophetic' material in the book of 'revelation' is actually stolen / borrowed i.e. lifted from various Apocalyptic Dead Sea Scrolls and handled 'midrashically' from a levetical PRIESTLY point of view - the writer was evidently a Levitical Priest who worked the sacrificial system in the 2nd Temple of Herod, much like the writer of 'the epistle to the Hebrews' whoever he was -

For LITERARY SOURCES for the Book of Reveleation see e.g. the War Scroll, 1QM) and also have a look at all the direct and indirect quotations from various Old Testament texts (e.g. the Plagues of Egypt in the Book of Exodus, the imagery various Temple 'TAMID' Psalms (1). These psalms, as listed in the Talmud e.g. Tamid 7:4 which are: Ps 24 on Sunday, Ps 48 on Monday, Ps 82 on Tuesday, Ps 94 on Wednesday, Ps. 81 on Thursday, Ps 93 on Friday and Ps 92 for the Sabbath. and those passages in other Psalms having to do with the Messiah or the Suffering Servant of YHWH or Creation Pslams, also see: varioius passages from prophecies about the sun darkening in books such as Joel and in Amos, various passages in Hosea and Daniel (the latter is quoted always in Theodotion's Greek translation, oddly !), and the Testaments of the 12, the Testament of Moses (aka Jubilees), the Scroll of the Book of the Words of Henoch the son of Jared, the prophetic Books of proto and trito Isaiah, Hezekiel and Jeremiah, as well as passages lifted straight out of Obadiah and Zechariah chapter 4 (the 4 horses) and chapters 9-12, almost always from an Aramaic Targum version of these books (e.g. Hezekiel chapter 39 with the Birds feasting on Blood and Flesh, and chapters 40-45 having to do with the measurements of the Temple &tc.)

Try to understand that alot of these texts have Gemmatria built into them, so that there is a link between those words that have the same number in them, etc.

Complex subject, but lots of fun for those who have the various versions of the unpointed (un-vowelled) consonantal texts of the Old Testament and the Dead Sea Scroll versions to play with...

Unfortunately, none of this 'works' as gemmatria in English since it is a modern language - but weird things CAN happen if you play around a little with your own made up kinky modern Gemmatria newfangled systems --even in dear old English:

e.g. you could make an 'English Gemmatrial Game' out of the 'Beast' in Chapter 13 of Revelation I suppose if you grabbed a few evil persons still managing to be alive today, such as Heinz ('call me Henry') Kissinger, to take an extreme example of pure evil - say if you build a system on pure addition of letter combos based on 6's

K + I + S + S + I + N + G +E + R = 666

See the chart below - just for fun of course, since the Hebrew language (and old style bibilical Aramaic) only had 22 letters and no written or 'expressed' vowels except yud for y/i and vav for u or o.



A = 6
B =12
C= 18
D = 24
E = 30
F = 36
G = 42
H= 48
I= 54
J = 60
K= 66
L = 72
M = 78
N = 84
O = 90
P= 96
Q = 102
R = 108
S =114
T= 120
U = 126
V = 132
W = 138
X= 144
Y = 150
Z =156

English? Gamatria?

Do WHAT?

You're simply assigning numbers to any letters in any language as if all languages were formed at the same moment of creation as equals.

To me, that's your first problem right there.
The idea of Gamatria, as I know it, is to get at the root essence of a thing. It's this idea that the creator created things/ideas/ect with emanations that carried a particular value (Not always numerical, but numbers were created as well, and words.) Gamatria, as I know, tries to get to this value, so as to really know any thing, or in the case of magick, to manipulate it. (To find out how to pull strings.)

English is a lot of things, but it has never struck me as being a particular magickal or holy language.

hi Ranger's Dad

You did know, didn't you, that (Gk. iesous) R. Yehoshua bar Yosef the Galilean Nazir is referred to in the Apocalypse of Yohanon the Levite (aka Book of Revelation) chapter 22:16 as:

I Iesous have sent my Malak ('messenger' 'angel) to you:
I am the the Root and Spawn of David
even, Lucifer, the Bright and Morning Star !

which can be seen as a Messianic 'Midrash' (expansion) of the Aramaic Targum of protoIsaiah 14:12?

The Term LUCI-FER is the Latin phrase for 'Bringer of the Light ' (Fero, I bring; Lux, Lucis - light) which is also called the 'Bright Morning Star' which refers astrologically to what we call the Planet VENUS, since it appears in the heavens most brighly IMMEDIATELY BEFORE THE DAWN, so it seems to draw the Sun up into daylight each morning.

The Messiah, (Ho Christos in Greek) was supposed to usher in the Dawn of the New Age of the Kingdom of David (see Aramaic Daniel chapter 7: 13-14), so the Messiah of the Jews was supposed to be the Drawer or Bringer of the Light, in other words Lucifer.

I suppose one could argue that LUCIFER is actually a neutral term that refers to ANY bringer of the light -

And only LATER 'after the FALL' did Lucifer (the bright angel of Hebrew mythology) lose his title - which was then handed over to the Messiah who sort of took his place in the heavenly court as MetaTron ('one who stands BEHIND THE THRONE of YHWH)

Presumably the character of 'Lucifer' in post Exilic Persian Period 2nd Temple Judaism had been completely changed to the darker god Shaitan ('adversary', 'blocker') under the influence of Zorastrian Persian Dualism after Persia conquored Palestine for 200 years (BCE 531 to BCE 331 when the Syrian-Greeks took over the occupation of Palestine under the Seleucids)

See the Dualist Persian period late Hebrew PROSE section of Job i.e. chapters 1,2 which were written long after the POEM section of Job, chapters 3-48) where the figure of Shaitan is sort of an heavenly Accuser in the Heavenly Law Court/Temple. He does not quite seem to be evil - that is for a later period in the development that we see in the Dead Sea Scroll material, where Lucifer becomes Shaitan and later, Belial.

Played with this for a minute, I love gematria or moreso the idea behind it so I don't base a lot on number coincidence.

A few of the ones I found quick are

LUCIFER and JESUS are both 444

LESBIAN and YAHWEH are both 372

And MONEY IS EVIL 888

This stuff can never be taken as proof of the underlying meaning of a word it just shows a words related numerical sinifigance at best.

I entered my name and it calculated it to be 1290......I'm sorry, but this means absolutely nothing. At least Chinese numerology gives you a meaning behind the numbers, and it pins down personality types fairly well. This does nothing!!

[edit on 5-3-2010 by SpeakerofTruth]

Originally posted by Sigismundus
Then the Finals - (for advanced students in Gemmatria !)

Final Tsayin - 500
Final Kaph - 600
Final Mem - 700
Final Nun - 800
Final Phe -900
Final Tsadeh - 1000

Err.. there is no final "Tsayin" in hebrew.
Also, it is Zayin and not Tsayin, no point spelling it like that since it is the equivalent of the english Z.

Originally posted by refuse2lose2nwo
8 is the number of completion and perfection in the Bible. Also a little tidbit that when you make 8 sideways you get infiniti.

8 can mean infinity without being rotated. It is just the modern symbol for infinity, nothing more. MODERN symbol.

[edit on 7-3-2010 by SparKzzz]

Pronunciations of the paleoHebrew (z) sound (e.g. tsayin/zayin) varied over time and place - and is TRANS-LITERATED into Modern English different ways by different scholars.

In sefardi pronunciation ( as you SHOULD know) the Heb letter (z) is pronounced tzayin -or something equivalent to tsa-yeen as in the initial consontant of the Jebusite word for hill-fortress 'ZION" ('tzee-yone').

It is NOT pronounced 'Zye-onnn' the way e.g. modern Americans try to read it. (then again, they pronounce Iraq as 'EYE-rack', go figure...)

We are NOT dealing here with an Enlgish aleph-beth -- but rather a FOREIGN alephbeth of an ancient language (or group of languages) which are no longer spoken (e.g. Ugaritic and paleoHebrew).

It is customer in the US to trans-literate this Heb. letter as ['zayin'] today but it may have had more of the force of a tsadeh in ancient times, hence tsayin.

At any rate, transliterations into modern American English are rough - ther is NO EXACT EQUIVALENT of all the paleoHebrew letters in modern English. The trans-liter-ations are ONLY APPROXIMATE in modern English transcriptions.

(e.g. the gutterals Aleph and 'Ayin - which English speaking persons have difficulty understanding how to pronounce)

This does NOT affect the gemmatrial VALUE of the tsayin/zayin. It remains a consonant with a value of 7.

Many texts (e.g. the Dead Sea Scroll fragments) replace Zayin/tsayin (Heb gemmatrial value of 7) with Tsadeh (Heb gemmatrial value of 18) which shows this to be true. In so doing scribes who have perpetrated the change (and changes of CONSONANT in hundreds of passages in the MT/Vorlga to the LXX, SamPent and many DSS copies) they have affected the gematrial value of the consonant, and therefore any 'hidden correspondences' of one set of texts and creating different ones - sometimes the changes to a 'later' consonant are a 'reversion' back to an older oral stream of tradition - but the difficulty with oral transmission (as you may imagine) especially in paleoHebrew and Aramaic is that letters often sound alike, and in the course of transmission are either deliberately or accidentally changed, when commited to writing.

Notice all the consonantal changes (gemmatrially deliberate?) between final ALEPH (Heb gemmatrial value of 1) and 'AYIN (Heb gemmatrial value of 16) and HE (Heb gemmatrial value of 5) and epecially between between the consonants Daled and Resh (since these letters in paleo and in the post-Ezra square 'aramaic' letters look extremely similar when written by hand) Daled (Heb gemmatrial value of 4) and Resh (Heb gemmatrial value of 20)

The Masoretes in the 10th century in Russia had their own oral traditional pronunciation with the vowels as well all know (that differed alot in hundreds of places in the Torah alone, from say, the Samaritan Torah pointed-vowelled traditions), but the Masoretes ALSO had several hundred different CONSONANTS from the far older consonantal texts e.g. the Sam Pent and the Hebrew consonantal underlay ('Vorlag') to some of the Greek LXX texts (and differernt yet again from the consonantal vorlagen pre-supposed by the writers of Theodotion's LXX or Aquilla's LXX or Symmachus' LXX).

Since EACH consonant preserved its own GEMMATRIAL EQUIVALENT AS A SINGLE NUMBER, any (even slight) changes to the consonantal text of the Hebrew (let alone the pointing) such as we see in all the Dead Sea Scroll fragments (which show at least SIX (6) different Hebrew Consonantal Text families for the Old Testament writings (grouped into MSS text families, some following the protoMT, some following the LXX Vorlag, some following the Theodotion LXX Vorlag, some at times following Aquila, some following the later Aramaic Targums, some following the Sampent consonantal texts)

Long story short - any gemmatrial understanding of the Hebrew Consonantal text for ANY verse of the OT depends on WHAT TEXT FAMILY you are quoting at any one time - you can change the Gemmatrial import or a single word by changing a single letter (see the weird Greek translations of the OT / Apocryphal Hebrew texts and proto Aramaic Targums found littered all through 'the Apocalypse of Yohanon the Levite' akak the 'Book of Revelation' written during the 1st failed Jewish War against Rome c. 69 CE--all of which pre-suppose not only DIFFERENT VOWEL pointing (which does not affect the gemmatria) but ALSO A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT HEBREW CONSONANTAL TEXT UNDERLAY (Vorlag) - which DOES change the Gemmatria.

Your point about how to bring Tsayin/Zayin into transliterated Modern American English is quite moot, however--- a 7 is a 7 is a 7 as long as it is WRITTEN as a symbol meaning 7.

Originally posted by Sigismundus
Pronunciations of the paleoHebrew (z) sound (e.g. tsayin/zayin) varied over time and place - and is TRANS-LITERATED into Modern English different ways by different scholars.

In sefardi pronunciation ( as you SHOULD know) the Heb letter (z) is pronounced tzayin -or something equivalent to tsa-yeen as in the initial consontant of the Jebusite word for hill-fortress 'ZION" ('tzee-yone').

It is NOT pronounced 'Zye-onnn' the way e.g. modern Americans try to read it. (then again, they pronounce Iraq as 'EYE-rack', go figure...)

We are NOT dealing here with an Enlgish aleph-beth -- but rather a FOREIGN alephbeth of an ancient language (or group of languages) which are no longer spoken (e.g. Ugaritic and paleoHebrew).

Buddy, I'm an Israeli jew that speaks fluent hebrew.
What I was trying to imply was a simple fact.. you listed the hebrew 'final' letters, and I was saying there is no such thing as a final Zayin.
Also, the thing you say about Zion is because to Israelies Z can be interpreted both as TS or Z. The letter itself is called Zayin, and it by no means represent the same thing when you try to read it in hebrew.

To make it much simpler, "Zayin", the 7th letter in the hebrew alphabet, has no final 'version' (unlike Mem, Nun, Kaf, Pey or Tsadik), and when used in a word (any word) it acts only as a Z, never TS.

The letter Z CAN be read by some people as 'TS', 'TZ' and so on, but the letter Zaying can only be read as 'Z'.

What you say about Zion is true, but there is no "Zayin" letter in Zion (hebrew), but rather Tsadik.

Tsadik, yud, vav, nun. - that's how you spell Zion in hebrew.
I can understand how you got mixed up.