Are we Von Neumann Probes?

The following is a speculative discussion, and I am not claiming that we are Von Neuman Probes.

I recently read this thread which is a short story, the moral of which is that biological intelligence may be a minorty in the universe. The author of the story imagines ET intelligences which are not biologically based. This is not an outrageous notion to me.

There exists the notion of a theoretical technology known as a Von Neumann Probe:

Von Neumann probes

A von Neumann probe is a self-replicating spacecraft designed to investigate its target system and transmit information about it back to its system of origin.[6] The concept is named after Hungarian American mathematician and physicist John von Neumann, who rigorously studied the concept of self-replicating machines that he called "Universal Assemblers" and which are often referred to as "von Neumann machines". While von Neumann never applied his work to the idea of spacecraft, theoreticians since then have done so.

If a self-replicating probe finds evidence of primitive life (or a primitive, low level culture) it might be programmed to lie dormant, silently observe, attempt to make contact (this variant is known as a Bracewell probe), or even interfere with or guide the evolution of life in some way.

Physicist Paul Davies of Arizona State University has even raised the possibility of a probe resting on our own Moon, having arrived at some point in Earth's ancient prehistory and remained to monitor Earth (see Bracewell probe).

An interesting variant idea on the interstellar von Neumann probe idea is that of the "Astrochicken", proposed by Freeman Dyson. While it has the common traits of self-replication, exploration, and communication with its "home base", Dyson conceived the Astrochicken to explore and operate within our own planetary system, and not explore interstellar space.

Oxford-based philosopher Nick Bostrom discusses the idea that future powerful superintelligences will create efficient cost-effective space travel and interstellar Von Neumann probes.[7]

...

The monoliths in Arthur C. Clarke's book and Stanley Kubrick's film 2001: A Space Odyssey were intended to be self-replicating probes, though the artifacts in "The Sentinel", Clarke's original short story upon which 2001 was based, were not. The film was to begin with a series of scientists explaining how probes like these would be the most efficient method of exploring outer space. Kubrick cut the opening segment from his film at the last minute, however, and these monoliths became almost mystical entities in both the film and Clarke's novel.

In The Third Millennium: A History of the World AD 2000–3000 by Brian Stableford and David Langford (published by Alfred A. Knopf, Inc. 1985) humanity sends cycle-limited Von Neumann probes out to the nearest stars to do open-ended exploration and to announce humanity's existence to whoever might encounter them.

In Von Neumann's War by John Ringo and Travis S. Taylor (published by Baen Books 2007) Von Neumann probes arrive in the solar system, moving in from the outer planets, converting all metals into gigantic structures. Eventually, they arrive on Earth, wiping out much of the population before they are fought to a standstill. Interestingly, the Von Neumann probes in this book are not inherently malevolent, they are utterly indifferent to human efforts to resist them, concentrating solely on the metal of our civilization.

In Spin by Robert Charles Wilson, earth is veiled by a temporal field. Humanity tries to understand and escape this field by using Von Neumann probes. It is later revealed that the field itself was generated by Von Neumann probes from another civilization, and that a competition for resources had taken place between earth's and aliens probes.

Larry Niven frequently refers to Von Neumann probes in many of his works. In his 1997 book Destiny's Road, Von Neumann machines are scattered throughout the human colony world Destiny and its moon Quicksilver in order to build and maintain technology and to make up for the lack of the resident humans' technical knowledge; the Von Neumann machines primarily construct a stretchable fabric cloth capable of acting as a solar collector which serves as the humans' primary energy source. The Von Neumann machines also engage in ecological maintenance and other exploratory work.

See also Alexander Kluge, The Devil's Blind Spot (New Directions; 2004.)

Source

It seems to me that these probes have the following attributes:
1) They are self replicating.
2) They exploit local resources in order to self replicate.
3) They travel between stellar bodies.
4) They explore stellar bodies, and the universe.
5) They are intelligent.
6) They are artificial; the creation of some other intelligence.

It seems to me that DNA based life on earth has all of these attributes in common with Von Neumann Probes except number 6. But, it may have number 6, we don't know. Panspermia - the idea that life arrived on earth from somewhere else, as opposed to spontaneously generating on earth - is an acceptable scientific theory. This would be consistent with the hypothesis that DNA based life is in fact a Von Neumann Probe.

I am not aware of any accepted scientific observations which are inconsistant with this hypothesis.

Are we - and all DNA based lifeforms - Von Neumann Probes? Do we indeed share all of their attributes?

There's no evidence to support the idea that 'we' are Von Neumann probes. Our DNA and genome share many of the markers of any other lifeform on Earth.

In my speculative opinion...some of the reported behaviours of UFOs could be interpreted as theoretical probes.

Well maybe not we humans.....no

Now cockroaches on the other hand fit nicely into that model

reply to post by Kandinsky


reply to post by DaddyBare


I propose that the whole system of DNA based life on earth could be Von Neumann Probes. With DNA itself being the central feature of the probe. Obviously creating a Von Neumann Probe presents a tremendous technical challenge. It seems to me that DNA solves all of the technical problems. Life on earth acts just like a Von Neumann Probe.

Kandinsky, all of life on earth is part of the probe. Evolution is one of the features of the probe that help is accomplish its objective. Evolution is consistant with this hypothesis, as are real observed genetic data.

DaddyBare, cockroaches and humas are part of the same system: dna based life. Intelligent life like us is needed to accomplish the Von Neumann Probe objective of exploring the universe and travelling to other stellar bodies. Cockroaches are a useful technical feature of the probe because they have high survivability.

reply to post by OnceReturned


Why I say it doesn't work for humans is we destroy almost all we encounter... take the European settlement in the new world... before white-men arrived here it was written a squirrel could travel from the eastern seaboard to the mighty Mississippi from tree top to tree top and never touch the ground... look at it today... no a successful probe would study without altering the environment it was sent to study

reply to post by DaddyBare


I'm not sure that is right. A key feature of the Von Neumann Probes is that they are able to self-replicate. It is inconceivable that self replication could occer for very many generations without exploiting local resources. The material has to come from somewhere. We exploit local resources to facilitate our self replication, among other things. I believe it would be impossible for such a probe to observe without altering if it was also instructed to self replicate.

If you go by this model all living things everywhere von Neumann Probes as long as they take something from their environment and you believe in some kind of divine or alien creation... evolution really doesn't fit.

If we where some kind of probe what would be the point of sending so many types to the same planet?

If every thing on earth shares some part of the genome (jelly fish share about 90%+) then they are all from the same Creator. To me that would kind of rule out alien just because of the number of different creatures in this world it seem kind of hard and a bit of an over kill.

Unless in this model when the probes self replicate is there a chance of mutation or evolution? can the probe adapt to the environment that the take their resources from?


Peace

reply to post by DisIllusioned PatRiot


I would say that the original single celled organisms that started life on earth was the probe that was sent here. Then everything else evolved. I don't think every life form was sent here individually. I think that only the very first primordial ooze that was the first thing with DNA and the first thing that you could call life on earth was sent here. It was small and fairly simple, and all the complex life to ever arise started from that. This idea goes a long way towards solving the technical challenge facing the Von Neumann Probe of being able to self replicate in novel environments.

Maybe biological evolution is the best way to solve the technical challenges facing a Van Neumann Probe. So far life as we know it has demonstrated many desirable characteristics for such a probe. It has persisted through mega-disasters like meteor impacts. It is able to self replicate and find energy in a wide range of environments. And, it eventually resulted in substantial intelligence(us) and we are exploring the universe and sending stuff out there.

Try to imagine a machine being able to satisfy the objectives a Von Neumann Probe. It seems like a tall order for conventional devices. DNA based life as a whole on the other hand seems to have all of the necessary qualities; suggesting that perhaps we(and all life on earth) is part of some alien intelligence's Von Neumann Probe.

Originally posted by OnceReturned
reply to post by Kandinsky

 

reply to post by DaddyBare

 

I propose that the whole system of DNA based life on earth could be Von Neumann Probes. With DNA itself being the central feature of the probe. Obviously creating a Von Neumann Probe presents a tremendous technical challenge. It seems to me that DNA solves all of the technical problems. Life on earth acts just like a Von Neumann Probe.

Kandinsky, all of life on earth is part of the probe. Evolution is one of the features of the probe that help is accomplish its objective. Evolution is consistant with this hypothesis, as are real observed genetic data.

DaddyBare, cockroaches and humas are part of the same system: dna based life. Intelligent life like us is needed to accomplish the Von Neumann Probe objective of exploring the universe and travelling to other stellar bodies. Cockroaches are a useful technical feature of the probe because they have high survivability.

So the better probes would be the people who enjoy learning and exploring("probing" for new knowledge)? Interesting theory.

Wouldn't DNA be a poor choice for the encoding of Von Neumann machine instructions? Random mutations would destroy the encoded directive for its long term objectives.

The genetic trait which carries with it the directive to engage in inter-planetary exploration wouldn't be favored by natural selection because it would have no bearing on organisms' chances for survival or reproduction... during the epochs when those organisms are incapable of space travel.


Just for fun, I'm going to throw out this alternative speculation: What if we evolved from Von Neumann machines which were not organic? Perhaps over the course of billions of years, our ancestors changed from having a mechanical embodiment (metal, bolts, wires), to an organic, cellular one, as manufacturing techniques slowly evolved.


[edit on 4-3-2010 by Tearman]

[edit on 4-3-2010 by Tearman]

What about the animals that don't share the same DNA as us like an octopus? the don't even have iron based blood they use copper based and they are thought to be the most intelligent of all sea animals and they don't even have a spine... Horse shoe crabs also have copper based blood and have been around almost completely unchanged for almost 500 million years.

maybe we are the original DNA group or family and creatures like these are the probes?

Peace

Philosphocally it is a really cool analogy to say we are Von Neumann probes. As a metaphor it really helps you invision the sort of idea that we are segments of consciousness branching off a central source like a branch from a tree and are operating physical bodies to extract information from this physical world to send back to that central source.

This is the basis to many spiritual ideas and although I don't really accept it fully, I do think it is a part of the puzzle. Litterally speaking though, to say we are intelligent robots is an intriguing idea, but as a litteral concept lacks logical analysis and evidence.

But it's a great idea none the less.

[edit on 4-3-2010 by Crapsghetti]

reply to post by OnceReturned


That's silly because it's not like we have transmitted information about this planet out into the galax........

Oh wait, you might just have a very interesting point!

I don't think this hypothesis could actually be proven wrong. I love it!

a reply to: OnceReturned

I like it; i was thinking the same thing. In real life, sending small objects through space makes more sense than large ones and genetic material has an enormous capacity to store data. In Sci-Fi however, star wars is great example, there are these huge even planet sized spacecraft. That trend seems to run coutner to the way technology seems to make things smaller and smaller. Add to that the problems inherent in the theory of relativity; as the mass of an object increases the amount of energy required to accelerate it increases and as the velocity approaches C the energy approaches infinite. below is a link to a youtube video about how organic life functions at a molecular level. I studied a bit of microbiology and the way molecular proteins function looks like amazingly complex machines.

youtu.be...