If once, just once, a corrupt cop was actually punished for their actions... OR other honest cops would quit covering for the corrupt ones, then maybe the public would be more sympathetic.

I'll quit thinking 'us against them' the day I see a video of a line of well armed and armoured cops, ready to mow down a peaceful protest, stopped by one of their own who has come to the realization they are fighting for the wrong team - the corporations - and instead stand up to the rest of them in order to protect the public, the protesters.

One judges the tree by its fruit. Alone, you represent yourself. Put on the assigned uniform, it's purpose is to represent you, by consensus. Nobody gets an automatic pass. Do bad, get punished, regardless your uniform.
Tell us,does the public pay you or do the politicians pay you? Who do you think you answer to?
Which of the two are you more afraid to disappoint?
Will that ever change?
Under what circumstances?

For a time I was a civilian working with LEO's - and met many during that time.

I can tell you a few were among the finest men and women anyone could ever hope to meet.

I can tell most were just average folks trying to do a tough job the best they could. They were not perfect - but it was pretty darn rare for them to really screw up.

The last few were the "bad apples" - honestly, I'd rather have had most any criminal in the jail show up at my house than one of these guys.


I know I've been critical of LEO"s here before - but I've also supported them before. I do believe most LEO's really do try to do a good job and are professional. But, I'll admit I can be very critical of the bad ones - and I'll go so far as to give you my two reasons.

First, Yes - there are "bad apples" in every profession. But, there are very very few professions were a "bad apple" can ruin a person's life the way a "bad apple" cop can. Less face it, bad apple accountant may steal your money. But, he is unlikely to beat you up, toss you jail, plant evidence, molest you, or kill you in addition to that.

Part of the reason the bad apple cops get so much focus (I think) is because of the sheer amount of power a LEO has compared to other professions.

Second, is (rightly or wrongly) the public's perception of the "blue wall". I'll admit that it does seem that even good officers will protect bad ones. That often times an officer can get away with something or get a week off that a civilian would get a much harsher sentence for. Rightly or wrongly - it gives the perception that no matter what LEO's will protect each other and if a bad one ever does get caught - they will get a much lighter sentence than normal.

Stress - yes, I know it a a very high stress job. This can also come into play. As a short aside let me tell you about my last encounter with a LEO - a game warden.

Anchored in a cove with other boats fishing - he speeds in and pulls his boat up along mine for a check. He stands in his boat, I stand in mine. He asks if I have X, Y & Z. I show him X, Y & Z. All standard safety and regulation stuff no sweat. Though I notice that for everything I show him that I have it seems to make him agitated. Like, "Sure officer, here is my life jacket" "Light -show me your light NOW!"

Finally we run through everything on his list and he's standing in his boat, I'm standing in mine and he's just looking at me. The only thing I can think of he hasn't seen is my catch and I offer, "Do you want to see my fish?"

"No."

At this point I'm trying to lighten the mood a little and say, "Well, I've only caught 2 anyway. They don't seem to be biting. Has anyone caught anything much?"

At this point he screams, "SHUT THE F**** UP!! I'M ASKING THE QUESTIONS HERE!". He drops into a crouch and puts his hand on his pistol in what looks like a draw posistion (fingers around grip, index finger straight along its side..) His face is bright red and he's breathing heavy.

I don't move and hold my arms at my side. In as calm a voice as I can I say, "Officer, I'm not threat to you. I'm unarmed, in the middle of my boat, hands visible and not moving. Why is your hand on your weapon in a draw position? Are you going to shoot me? In front of all these witnesses? (By that time all the other fisherman around and people on the beach were watching) Because I asked you if the fish were biting?"

He kind of gave a head shake like "Wha?".. He looked down at his hand on his pistol and his eyebrows shot up. He took his hand away quickly like he had it on a snake..and he started shaking and his face went from red to pale.

He didn't say another word, just walked to the seat, started his boat and roared away. Across a no-wake lake, nearly swamping mine little boat with his rooster tail and wake when he took off.

He clearly had issues. Drugs? Stress? I dunno. I think I came close to getting shot that day because I asked if the fish were biting. That's the power an officer that isn't right has over the public. I'm not angry at him - I do hope he's gotten help for whatever his issue was. Because if not the next guy that asks him if the fish are biting might not get off as lucky as I was.

Why did all those chiefs resign last month?
2nd line

Originally posted by Everwatcher33
Hmm would you mind listing one of these situations as an example. I am always interested in hearing what makes people have their perceptions.

a handful of times i've ended up meeting cops socially, friend of a friend etc., and they were all dicks. they had this "i'm the man" attitude and they all seemed to have a complete disregard for the people in their company. that's the most damning thing as far as i'm concerned.

if they were just like that when they were out doing their job, if it was some sort of professional personna, that would be one thing, but it's not. cops need to have a certain mentality to want to become a cop and this gets reinforced because they have a weird incestuous culture where they only associate with other cops most of the time.

Dear JWH44,

I thank you for opening this dialog. It will surely improve our mutual understanding.

However, one need only experience a single act of police corruption or brutality to be permanently disgusted!

Two incidents in my immediate family, a good, hard working, educated, upper-middle class family, were almost impossible to believe had I not had to bail my own brother from jail on the most preposterous of traffic related charges -- eventually dropped! -- that ruined his young man's life. Later, it was revealed the State Police arrested that same cop because he had been molesting a pubescent girl in his little town, and for several years at that.

Another incident, similar to so many these days, involved a peaceable "night on the town" outing with US Marines about to deploy overseas to the Afghanistan War. In the college town where they lived, the protesters did their usual thing throwing rocks and bottles. My family member was permanently crippled by the riot police goons who ripped his arm from its socket because he had the nerve to compain that he was not one of hte protesters. When he threatened to sue, their response was "we'll charge you with resisting arrest!". He didn't sue. The 7-hour surgery to put back the pieces of his arm was real though. Again, no charge was made and why would there be? His only crime was to be in the company of Marines in a college town on the eve of the Afghan War.

In both cases, no punishment was made to the criminals in uniform and carrying a gun in the name of the law. Yes, one got karmic payback but that was only dumb luck.

The take away lesson for me is quite simple: a cop has your life in his hands and may maim or even murder with near impunity. There is no way to know beforehand if the "officer" you've sadly encountered is ethical or himself a criminal. So the only effective strategy is one of abject submission, unbecoming a man let alone an American citizen, and "comply" with each thuggish command on pain of (potential) summary execution.

The corollary to this is somewhat frightening, but it explains the gang mentality in our cities: never travel alone, always be in the company of friends. Treat each encounter with "The Man" as a potential death trap and be prepared to defend each other to the extent possible.

When our so-called Law EnFORCEment officers clean up their own acts first (and yes, this is what you seem to try to do, albeit like spitting in the sea), then the rest of us might treat them less as armed thugs and brutes and more like fellow citizens trying to do a worthy job.

In the meantime, forewarned is forearmed. I'll do what I can to avoid direct contact with the Fuzz but flat out, I'm not prepared to spend the rest of my life in fear and suspicion. Something big has got to change.

I have always had respect for the police. The way I see it, I want the least amount of exposure to them as possible, not because I thought they were all corrupt or abusive but rather just for the fact that I thought it was good policy. You know speak when spoken to, be polite and non argumentative, take your fine, and be on your way.

One day I was walking through my small town. I sat down on a park bench off a scenic street. I noticed an elderly man (70's) sitting at the end of the bench. We started chatting about this and that, small congenial talk. I noticed a foot patrol coming down the side walk, thought nothing of it. The police officer came upon us and I said good day officer, he tipped his hat and said good day gentlemen. I thought nice guy wearing a badge. The elderly gentleman however saw it differently. Just as the cop was leaving ear shot, the guy says to me in a loud voice f@#kin' a$$ hole sort of directed his way. The cop kept going which I was thankful for. I found it so out of character as the gentleman seemed polite enough earlier. He looked at me and said "I went to school with his father and brothers, they used to beat me and many other kids up on the playground everyday. He said the whole dirty works of them went into law enforcement." His father was either police chief of some other high ranking officer. His son had followed suit.

I have never had a bad experience with the police. I even have a good friend who is an officer who instructs police ethics at the local academy, he is a great guy who hates power abuses, however I'm left with the impression that the field of law enforcement attracts some, not all, aggressive personality types.

I do however, respect the OP and the patient respectful tone he is taking here in this battlefield of sorts.

Crappy jobs come with lots of baggage. I know I could never enforce, that's why I got into education instead.

chirp chirp

OP i feel for you but honestly i'm offended by this. i don't have a problem with cops only the laws they enforce. when you know your putting someone in jail over a non-crime then you should take a stand and say NO.

about 60% of the laws people are getting tossed in jail over are bogus and you know it yet you still do the job. for that the only answer is to lump all the cops in the same boat.

like i said i'm sad its that way but it is.

when the SHTF and we come face to face if your on my side show me your backside because all those showing me the front side get shot.

take care.

Originally posted by Everwatcher33

Originally posted by SmokeandShadow
Law enforcement is the most visible apparatus that inhibits change. I CANNOT go to a federal building with a group of people and drag out the politicians who are wrecking this country for fear of a violent confrontation with law enforcement. Every person who wants real change knows this but doesn't speak above their breath about it.

A person is not truly free in this world and law enforcement IS the physical arm of tyrants and oppressors that are placed over us.

You are basically describing a lawless environment where those who feel like dishing out their own justice do so? If that is the case then what is stopping anyone who feels you are an obstruction to their goals from just getting you and doing what they want with you?

Though I do understand what you are saying, I would like to get rid of a few politicians as well...

Lawless? No, just effective due process is all. Its cool you see what I mean though ( as far as the perception many have). I wasn't describing an extreme, where there is unorganized anarchy or anything.

If that large consensus that wanted to stop the Iraq war back in 06' and 07' (heat died down after that, now almost forgotten) could have walked into the white house as organized citizens and dragged out the administration, then it wouldn't be conducive to a free-for-all tyranny, but instead a group of citizen's decision based on a strong consensus.

Let me put it this way...the president is still sitting in the white house with abysmal approval ratings, but the public isn't able to remove him(ask him to get up and go home) without having law enforcement tackle, taze or shoot those people....but that is what would happen. That is what I meant by the physical arm of tyranny. Law enforcement is tasked to "keep you from"..it enables those with power, by default (or by legislation, whichever way you want to take it).

In the day of internet polls, we could vote in and out government officials and legislation very easily. No mobs even necessary!

[edit on 4-3-2010 by SmokeandShadow]

Originally posted by pieman

Originally posted by Everwatcher33
Hmm would you mind listing one of these situations as an example. I am always interested in hearing what makes people have their perceptions.

a handful of times i've ended up meeting cops socially, friend of a friend etc., and they were all dicks. they had this "i'm the man" attitude and they all seemed to have a complete disregard for the people in their company. that's the most damning thing as far as i'm concerned.

if they were just like that when they were out doing their job, if it was some sort of professional personna, that would be one thing, but it's not. cops need to have a certain mentality to want to become a cop and this gets reinforced because they have a weird incestuous culture where they only associate with other cops most of the time.

If you want to know the truth that is the general rule that follows most professions. Why? Because those people understand them better and they usually spend a lot of time with those people. That being said some of them can't stand each other.

I have to agree partially on the mentality thing though. You have to be able to put up with the BS that you deal with on the job. But the ones I have seen (with a few exceptions) don't have the I'm better than everyone else attitude.

Of course it could all be because as you can see here most people don't like cops...I would tend to stay away and not associate with those people either...after all why try to change the minds of people who have already made theirs up?

Originally posted by pieman

Originally posted by Everwatcher33
Hmm would you mind listing one of these situations as an example. I am always interested in hearing what makes people have their perceptions.

a handful of times i've ended up meeting cops socially, friend of a friend etc., and they were all dicks. they had this "i'm the man" attitude and they all seemed to have a complete disregard for the people in their company. that's the most damning thing as far as i'm concerned.

if they were just like that when they were out doing their job, if it was some sort of professional personna, that would be one thing, but it's not. cops need to have a certain mentality to want to become a cop and this gets reinforced because they have a weird incestuous culture where they only associate with other cops most of the time.

If one has no integrated principles, one cant fairly be management and labor, jailer and prisoner, independant and gov't issue. Being an leo changes the social dynamic. The lion may indeed lie down with the lamb in the bible, but on this planet it's just a matter of status and privilege and an upgrade to predator status, and the lambs tend to regret and resent it, especially when the predators are there to enforce revenue enhancement rather than functional justice much of the time. Pretty much, leo are looking for a controlling legal authority to give them license to act in their behalf upon the public, and because politicians ultimately view the public as profit centers, the natural tendency of the majority of leos is to mimic their perceived employers' general disdain for the public. To whit, the system tends not to select what's best in public servants, on any level. Corruption breeds further corruption. Few leo have the stones or resources to buck the system, so they submit, obedient little boys and girls.
Most leo know that if they piss off their superiors at best they'll become prey again, and be on the same level as some of their prior professional associations that wouldnt go the same way without the uniform, etc.


[edit on 4-3-2010 by thatredpill]

[edit on 4-3-2010 by thatredpill]