The Protocols of the Elders of Zion - Fact or Fiction?

the priory of sion of the 33rd degree..

You are starting to get sloppy Stoneskull. The image that you linked to is not connected to any "Secret Society" called the "Priory of Sion/Zion". It is the symbol of the "Scottish Rite of Free & Accepted Masonry" order, which consists of 32 degrees of initiation (the 33rd being Honorary). However you are correct when you said that knowledge in itself is just a Power/Force - it is how you utilize that Power that counts.

[edit on 30-7-2006 by Seraphim_Serpente]

that is the symbol that was stamped as the signature.

maybe the ones who wrote the protocols
used the symbol of the 33rd degree scottish masons,
but weren't really 33rd degree scottish masons.

back then, before the internet and your modern truth seeking infidels,
i'm guessing it wouldn't be very common knowledge
what that symbol was, if they knew of the 33rd degree at all anyway.

Written in 1985 "The life of an American Jew in Racist Marxist Israel".....www.biblebelievers.org.aug... Mel has nothing on this .

The Protocols are a COMPLETE AND UTTER FORGERY.

Here is the history behind this terrible document:

In France 1848, Louis Napoleon named himself Napoleon III, Emperor of France. In 1864, a French writer by the name of Maurice Joly wrote a piece entitled "The Dialogue in Hell between Machiavelli and Montesquieu". It was an attack on Napoleon III, who Joly thought was a terrible leader and dictator. He compared Napoleon III to Machiavelli, with the hope that French society would would see the correlation and begin to turn on Napoleon III. He was persecuted and harassed by the French police and government for the rest of his life because of this document.

Now fast forward to Russia 1894. Tsar Nicholas II finds himself in a great deal of trouble. Revolution is brewing and Nicholas II has no idea what to do about it. Some of his advisors come up with a plan to blame all of Russia's troubles on the Jews. If there is someone to blame for Russia's ills, then perhaps Russians can be convinced to rally together and eliminate the problem. A Russian writer by the name of Mathieu Golovinski is recruited to create a document that proves the Jews are behind all of Russia's problems, and that, in fact, they plan on taking over not only Russia but the world. The document has to be convincing. Tsar Nicholas needs to think it is a genuine document. Golovinski, while in France, stumbles upon Joly's work and copies it practically word for word. The document is presented to Tsar Nicholas II around 1905, and the official persecution of Jews in Russia begins.

Henry Ford and his Dearborn Independent report on this document as a legitimate piece. It is published in many languages throughout Europe, the Middle East, North America, South America, Africa, as fact. Hitler embraces the document. As recently as 2001 American university students who belong to the Christian Defence League were distributing copies of The Protocols on American campuses.

The London Times first proved The Protocols to be a fake as early as 1921. In fact, their story ran on August 17, 1921. Since then countless courts and newspapers have proven this document to be a forgery, yet the document continues to circulate. Many muslim countries think this writing to be completely true and often broadcast The Protocols over the radio.

Everything I have said here is true. Look it up. Also look a fellow by the name of Will Eisner, a legend in the comic book industry. He spent a great deal of his life researching The Protocols. I am not a Jew nor a Mason. I am a practising Catholic. I've read all the responses on this thread. IT DOES matter that The Protocols are a forgery, regardless of what is happening in the world today. Find Joly's original piece, and then find The Protocols. They are identical, save for the fact that the term Jew is substituted in The Protocols. A lie is a lie and the truth is the truth. It is important to know one from the other whenever possible. It is essential that we know when we are being lied to. Jews have suffered immensely because of this terrible lie. There is no Jewish conspiracy any more than there is a Catholic or Buddhist one. If it appears that the Jews are taking over the world it's probably because they've been faced with an immense amount of hatred for more than 2000 years. This kind of adversity breeds a certain work ethic and determination to overcome. The result is success. Hard work and determination usually lead to success, whether it be financial or otherwise. So do your research. I've left out a number of details, but what I've given you is dead-on accurate.

Some of his advisors come up with a plan to blame all of Russia's troubles on the Jews. If there is someone to blame for Russia's ills, then perhaps Russians can be convinced to rally together and eliminate the problem.

Yeah - I could imagine the Nazi's slapping their heads & saying something like "Why didn't we think of this first" - just cross out Russians & replace it with Germans (sorry modern Germans - I don't mean to rag on you - I think that you are mostly cool now). I can Imagine Hitler standing around with a copy of it in his hands & saying "Yes, we are going to run with this - it will be a Party Platform as a matter of fact - this will get us into Power". A very disgusting aspect of human nature indeed!

[edit on 12-8-2006 by Seraphim_Serpente]

Originally posted by crsantin
Now fast forward to Russia 1894. Tsar Nicholas II finds himself in a great deal of trouble. Revolution is brewing and Nicholas II has no idea what to do about it. Some of his advisors come up with a plan to blame all of Russia's troubles on the Jews. If there is someone to blame for Russia's ills, then perhaps Russians can be convinced to rally together and eliminate the problem. A Russian writer by the name of Mathieu Golovinski is recruited to create a document that proves the Jews are behind all of Russia's problems, and that, in fact, they plan on taking over not only Russia but the world. The document has to be convincing. Tsar Nicholas needs to think it is a genuine document. Golovinski, while in France, stumbles upon Joly's work and copies it practically word for word. The document is presented to Tsar Nicholas II around 1905, and the official persecution of Jews in Russia begins.

Tell that to the millions upon millions of Christian Victims of the Jewish Financed Bolshevik movement. Persecution of the Jews in Russia? Yeah right.
One can either choose to believe as you have been told and told and told and told that Jews have been persecuted through all history, expelled from literally every nation in Europe at one time or another out of pure unreasonable and unjustified hatred of their way of life, or one can actually look into it and decide for themselves. When you look into the Bolshevik movement in Russia in particular, there's a hell of alot more to the story isn't there?
The Truth About Communism

As to the Protocols of Zion, as I said before one merely needs to read the Talmud, have a basic understanding of International Finance, and Freemasonry, and real or not, the protocols of Zion become eerily Prophetic. I find it funny though, George Orwell can basicly rewrite the Protocols, throw in some Farm Animals, or give it a catchy title like 1984, and we hail them as classics.

Again, twitchy describes truth.

Jewish Law: Deciphering the Code by Global Process and Analogy [.pdf]

According to jewish law, the judges can make up law as they go along. See Jewish law is all about laws, laws and more laws. It's about the perfection of law through increasing of law. Endlessly. In addition, as the analysis above will show any honest person, the jewish priests are required to "build a fence around" the law, which actually means killing those who present any other law code, and also to actively seek the destruction of all other world courts. Read and you will learn.

Compare this to the simple, easy life which man and woman are born to, on planet Earth. Home, hearth and peacefulness are all any human needs. We call this generally understood law of mankind "common" law.

Directly in opposition to this human truth, the Jew will promote the Torah as the bridle to be placed in all of humanity's mouth. I quote the Talmud here:

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...

R. Jehudah said in the name of Samuel: It reads [Hab. i. 14]: "And (why) makest thou men as the fishes of the sea, as the creeping things, that have no ruler over them?" Why are men compared with fish of the sea? To wit: even as the fish die as soon as they are taken on land, so do men die when they separate themselves from the law of the Torah. Another explanation: as fish die from the strong heat of the sun, so also do men. If you wish it may be said in this world, and this would be in accordance with R. Hanina, who said: "Everything is decreed by heaven, except cold" (see Middle Gate, p. 285). And if you wish it may be said, in the world to come, and this is in accordance with Resh Lakish, who says: There is no Gehenna in the future. But the Holy One, blessed be He, will take out the sun from its sheath. The wicked will be punished with its heat, and the upright be cured by it. As it reads [Malachi, iii. 19]: "For, behold, the day is coming, which shall burn as an oven; and all the presumptuous, yea, and all who practice wickedness shall be stubble: and the day that is coming shall see them on fire, . . . who will not leave them root or bough. (20) But there shall rise unto you that fear my name, the sun of righteousness with healing in his wings." Furthermore, the latter will have pleasure and become fat from it, as the end reads, "And ye will go forth, and grown fat as calves of the stall."

See, controlling the globe will require huge courts and massive prying into every tiny detail of a person's life, as Judaism commends and as all subjects of YHWH must do. Yes, Christians are also subjects of YHWH and will be held to Jewish code, if YHWH succeeds in taking over Earth. Only the their torah can "save humanity". Everyone else (and all other law) must be burned and destroyed. I don't know if the language here is symbolic, but I personally believe not.

Also, did you know that the State of Texas is said to have appealed to the Sanhedrin against the US Federal Government? Read more here: www.nationoftexas.com... ...I found this text to be very interesting if true.

Finally, as Twitchy mentions, why is it that other literary creations which liberally borrow their context from other works, are called classics, whereas some key books are reviled and spectacularly assaulted as forgeries? It is the content which matters, but so far, none of the debunkers in this thread will even touch the text of the Protocols. There is a reason they will not discuss the text.

You seem to be missing the point entirely. There is no point in discussing the content of the Protocols because it is copied and made up using a document that had nothing to do with the Jews. How can you not understand this? The content has absolutely no validity or integrity. There was never any meeting of so-called Jewish leaders. There is no plan in place for world domination by Jews. Have some of you people even bothered reading at least a portion of The Protocols? Wow.

Originally posted by crsantin
You seem to be missing the point entirely. There is no point in discussing the content of the Protocols because it is copied and made up using a document that had nothing to do with the Jews. How can you not understand this? The content has absolutely no validity or integrity. There was never any meeting of so-called Jewish leaders. There is no plan in place for world domination by Jews. Have some of you people even bothered reading at least a portion of The Protocols? Wow.

There is no conspiracy involving israel and zionism? So why does the whole world have to spend so much energy worrying about Jerusalem? It's really a sort of collective global insanity.

How come you didn't mention the Khazars? Considering they essentially hijacked judaism (and took it into a very dark place), I would be highly suspect of anyone calling themselves a "jew" today. What can be observed is that desire to use that religion as a tool to control the world, as described in the Protocols. You are harping on the "phony"-ness of them, but it changes none of the content, which is birthed in genuine intellect. The protocols are not allowed to be discussed in Western society and deserve to be discussed, even if as a "forgery".

Also, are we disallowed from speaking about how jewishness seems to claim some special bloodline but that bloodline cannot be traced back very far at all. In fact most of those bloodlines will probably reach non-semetic lands anyway making the term "anti-semite" utterly meaningless. Should I mention the utter stranglehold there is on society regarding this word? Really the term "anti-semite" has no meaning, if it ever had meaning.

en.wikipedia.org...

"The Thirteenth Tribe: The Khazar Empire and Its Heritage" by Arthur Koestler

Bloodlines

Originally posted by smallpeeps
Also, are we disallowed from speaking about how jewishness seems to claim some special bloodline but that bloodline cannot be traced back very far at all. In fact most of those bloodlines will probably reach non-semetic lands anyway making the term "anti-semite" utterly meaningless.

There are some Jews who can trace their ancestry quite a ways back indeed, despite the ravages of history. Jews are notorious record keepers, after all.

But this whole insinuation of a "Jewish race" (which is what all this Koestler/Khazar/bloodline nonsense is ultimately about -- it's a red herring) overlooks what Jews actually are: a people. I'm pretty sure Sammy Davis, Jr. wasn't a Khazar.

The Jewish people have added converts to their ranks from the beginning. There are no racial restrictions placed on converts. Anyone who meets the religious requirements may become a Jew, including Khazars, and as the article you cited points out, many did.

See: Conversion to Judaism, The Book of Ruth, Jews, Demographics of Israel, Beta Israel.

Some confusion on the issue exists because of matrilineage, different movements in Judaism and traditional admonitions against intermarriage (for religious reasons), but even in the days of the Twelve Tribes, there was no notion or distinction of the people of Judah as a "race", just a tribe, part of the people of Israel.

There is no such thing as a Jewish race.

That's an invention of bigots, not Judaism. Those born to Jewish mothers are Jews by birth, but under those same laws, anyone who wants to can become a Jew.

Hemi-Demi-Semite

Originally posted by smallpeeps
Should I mention the utter stranglehold there is on society regarding this word? Really the term "anti-semite" has no meaning, if it ever had meaning.

It does have meaning, but not in terms of a race. It actually originated as a linguistic term.

Semite

In linguistics and ethnology, Semitic (from the Biblical name "Shem") was first used to refer to a language family of largely Middle Eastern origin, now called the Semitic languages. This family includes the ancient and modern forms of Amharic, Arabic, Aramaic, Assyrian, Akkadian, Hebrew, Maltese, Syriac, Tigrinya, etc.

There is no such thing as a Semitic race, but there are Semitic languages and ethnicities to which the term applies, including Jews and Arabs.

Meanwhile, "anti-Semitic" has come to mean "anti-Jewish", but that doesn't mean all Semites are Jews, nor even necessarily that all Jews are Semites.

The Protocols

I see a lot of material which makes its way around the white supremacist, "Aryan" and Nazi communities (which are actually one community divided into various fiefdoms) rearing its ugly head in this thread and elsewhere in these forums.

I recognize it because I studied these communities some years back, as well as the Protocols, which are a staple that is invariably and ritualistically trotted out as specious proof that Jews run the world. It's practically as much of a Nazi sacred text as Mein Kampf.

Combined with Talmud quotes and a few other classics, they form the dogmatic foundation for those who believe they can elevate themselves by denigrating others.

My advice to those who think they understand the Talmud based on what they read on white supremacist web sites is to avoid falling into the trap of thinking a few choice out-of-context quotes from a massive collection of books tells the whole story.

That's as sensible as extrapolating the plot of Moby Dick based on the words "Call me Ishmael." It's fallacy.

As is so often the case, Wikipedia has a great article on the Talmud: Talmud

There's also a great article on the Protocols, which I highly recommend to anyone interested in the story behind them: The Protocols of the Elders of Zion

It's been referenced often enough in these discussions, but proponents of the validity of the Protocols seem prone to conveniently overlook anything which challenges their own prejudices.

I recommend that anyone who would presume to consider themselves experts on the Jewish people, the Talmud, Zionism or the Protocols do something many seem so determined to avoid doing: research them.

And not just on New World Order conspiracy fronts or websites with swastikas on them. :shk:

Deny Ignorance.

Originally posted by Majic
I recommend that anyone who would presume to consider themselves experts on the Jewish people, the Talmud, Zionism or the Protocols do something many seem so determined to avoid doing: research them.
And not just on New World Order conspiracy fronts or websites with swastikas on them. :shk:
Deny Ignorance.

And there's the punchline smallpeeps, any criticism of any sort, or of any level of truth, historical fact, or intellectuality is inevitably stamped with a swatika, and thereby easily and quietly discredited as some unreasonable hatred or Biggotry.

Which of course nessecitates organizations to insure and perpetuate this dogma which majic has so effectively just illustrated for us...
Let's have a look see at a FEW of them...
Ameinu
America Israel Friendship League
American Friends of Likud
American Federation of Jewish Holocaust Survivors
American Israel Public Affairs Committe
American Jewish Committe
American Jewish Congress
American Jewish Joint Distribution
American ORT INC
American Sephardi Federation
American Zionist Movement
American For Peace Now
AMIT
Anti-Defamation League
Association of Reform Zionists of America/World Union North America
B'nai B'rith International
B'nai Zion
Central Conference Of American Rabbis
Committe For Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America
Development Corporation for Israel/State of Israel Bonds
Emunah Of America
Friends of the Israel Defense Forces
Hadassah, Women's Zionist Organization of America
Hebrew Immigrant Aid Society
Jewish Community Centers Association
Jewish Council for Public Affairs
Jewish Institute For National Security Affairs
Jewish Labor Committe
Jewish National Fund
Jewish Reconstructionist Federation
Jewish War Veterans of the USA
Jewish Women International
Mercaz USA, Zionist Organization of The Conservative Movement
NA'AMAT USA
National Council Of Jewish Women
National Council Of Young Israel
NCSJ: Advocates on Behalf of Jews in Russia, Ukraine, Baltic States and Eurasia
Rabbinical Assembly
Rabbinical Council of America
Religous Zionists of America
Union For Reform Judaism
Union of Orthodox Jewish Congregations of America
United Jewish Communities
United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism
WIZO
Women of Reform Judaism
Women's American ORT
Women's League for Conservative Judaism
Workmen's Circle
World Zionist Executive USA
Zionist Organization of America
These are all Organizations which by their own definitions, not some swastika sight majic, "that seeks to strengthen the US-Israel Alliance". This is just to name a few by the way, that list of course doesn't include Freemasonry, The World Bank, The IMF,
The Federal Reserve Constiuents,

Originally posted by twitchy
www.worldnewsstand.net...
Rothschild Bank of London (Jewish)
Warburg Bank of Hamburg (Jewish)
Rothschild Bank of Berlin (Jewish)
Lehman Brothers of New York (Jewish)
Lazard Brothers of Paris (Jewish)
Kuhn Loeb Bank of New York (Jewish)
Israel Moses Seif Banks of Italy (Jewish)
Goldman, Sachs of New York (Jewish)
Warburg Bank of Amsterdam (Jewish)
Chase Manhattan Bank of New York (Rockefellers Interesting History

The Coporate Media,

Originally posted by twitchy
Paramount, Disney, ICM and CAA New York, Times, Wall Street Journal Washington Post, Boston Globe, Washington Post Barron's, Dow Jones Village Voice Time, U.S. News & World Report Atlantic Monthly, NY Daily News, AOL-Time Warner, CNN News Group (before you say no that's Ted Turner, look up 'Walter Isaacson'), Time Warner's publishing division, Sports Illustrated, People, Fortune, Walt Disney Company, Touchstone, Buena Vista, Hollywood Pictures, Caravan Pictures, Miramax Films, Capital Cities/ABC, Inc., ESPN, Lifetime Television, A & E Television Networks, ABC Radio Network, Viacom, Inc., Paramount Pictures, CBS's Country Music Television Nashville Network Simon & Schuster, Scribner, The
Free Press, Pocket Books. Showtime, MTV, Nickelodeon, Fox Television Network, 20th Century Fox Films, and Fox 2000, New York Post and TV Guide are all owned or controlled by one religous organization.

The Think Tanks, and various if not numerous Zionists and Advisors like AIPAC within our hierarchy including but not at all limited to the likes ofRichard Perle, Paul Wolfowitz, Henry Kissinger, etc. Or the numerous Kosher Scams which profit in the billions and are federally regulated religous oriented taxations of everything from food to steel and plastics, all the known Spy Rings, er I mean Art Students, the list goes on and on all in the name of scarcely 3% of our population which you have so clearly pointed out is not a race. If they aren't a race, then who the hell are we giving literally $3 trillion ($3 million millions in 2002 dollars) of our money to, a Religon?
Why is it if we talk about these things we are stamped with a swastika majic? You in particular are very quick to pull that rabbit out of your hat, thread after thread. Do you want to cast aspersions on my sources? I can provide a variety of them without a single swastika to be found amung them if you like and I have researched the material, you're stereotype of 'avoiding' the research I can assure won't apply to me. And on a final note, it isn't anti-semitism, like I have told you before, if there were a sect of evil hamburglars working behind the scenes for world domination, I would be anti-hamburglar. It isn't Judaism we have a problem with, its zionism. If you can't believe that, that have a look at this link and try to understand true oppostion to zionism and what differentiates Zionism from Torah Judaism.

[edit on 13-8-2006 by twitchy]

Godwin And Me

Originally posted by twitchy
Why is it if we talk about these things we are stamped with a swastika majic? You in particular are very quick to pull that rabbit out of your hat, thread after thread.

Okay, fair enough. I'm sorry about the swastika comments.

You're right: they don't pertain to whether the Protocols are authentic or not, so let's not go down that road.

But, um, "thread after thread"?

I just did a binary search of all my posts for the word "swastika" (2 hits) and, for good measure, a search for "swastikas" (1 hit). Let me know if I missed any.

Three times out of more than 8000 posts (~0.00375%) over the course of two years isn't exactly a habit.

But enough about swastikas. Let's get back to the topic, which is:

The Protocols of the Elders of Zion - Fact or Fiction?

And on this topic, can you point out to me where in your reply you ever actually demonstrated that anything I posted was factually incorrect?

Originally posted by Majic
And on this topic, can you point out to me where in your reply you ever actually demonstrated that anything I posted was factually incorrect?

Your ambiguous statements, stereotypes and generalizations are only subjectively percieved as correct or incorrect, so no, nothing you posted was incorrect, quite the contrary, however nothing you said is disputable because you really said nothing of consequence. It's like saying Kermit the Frog is ok because yellow and blue make green. What's there to illustrate as being incorrect? Wikipedia?
My point and hence the meat of my reply to you is that you seem awful quick to stereotype this topic and those who raise it here as ignorance.
And just so you know, I did a search for all my threads containing the word "the" and got no hits at all. I'm sure a few more search terms would lend more successful results if you're interested.
I remember a few outright...
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by twitchy

Originally posted by Majic
All members are free to discuss this topic candidly, but anyone who seeks to use this thread as a dumping ground for Nazi propaganda...

Thanks for permitting us to discuss this, but Majic if you think you know where some Nazi's are, then I suggest you stop what you're doing and immediately get in touch with the Simon Wiesenthal Center and let them know, here's a link to their homepage.
www.wiesenthal.com...

Remember my Italics around the word 'allowing'/Permitting? I do.


[edit on 13-8-2006 by twitchy]

Generally False

Originally posted by twitchy
Your ambiguous statements, stereotypes and generalizations are only subjectively percieved as correct or incorrect, so no, nothing you posted was incorrect, quite the contrary, however nothing you said is disputable because you really said nothing of consequence. It's like saying Kermit the Frog is ok because yellow and blue make green. What's there to illustrate as being incorrect? Wikipedia?

Fair enough. I'll spell it out.

I'm reasonably convinced that the Protocols are not what they are purported to be, and am concerned that you may be encouraging false assumptions about them when you make statements like this:

Originally posted by twitchy
As to the Protocols of Zion, as I said before one merely needs to read the Talmud, have a basic understanding of International Finance, and Freemasonry, and real or not, the protocols of Zion become eerily Prophetic.

Do tell.

The expression "real or not" jumps out at me. After all, that's what this thread is about, and it's a rather important question.

What evidence can you or anyone else present which actually establishes the authenticity of the Protocols?

To date I have seen none. Not in this thread, not anywhere.

And I've looked. A lot.

Did I miss it? Can you or anyone else point out the proof I have presumably overlooked?

The Paper Chase

Originally posted by twitchy
And just so you know, I did a search for all my threads containing the word "the" and got no hits at all.

I'm sure a few more search terms would lend more successful results if you're interested.

I'm not sure, but I think the search engine filters out common words like that. SO would know.

The binary search can seem a bit dodgy (the saved links don't seem to work, for example), but it does directly query the post database and is very handy once you get used to it.

Alternatively you can Google or -- since it's such a noteworthy pattern -- just work from memory. Or from my post history.

With "thread after thread" to choose from, it shouldn't be a problem.

Propaganda Police

Originally posted by twitchy
I remember a few outright...
www.abovetopsecret.com...

I didn't want that thread to become a dumping ground for Nazi propaganda, and so far it hasn't.

That's what you consider "pulling that rabbit out of [my] hat"?

I invite all members to review that comment in context -- and the whole thread for that matter, because I think it's a pretty cool thread.

I think my intent was quite clear: I did not want the thread to be shut down by Nazi propaganda spamming or cries of "anti-Semitism" either. As I recall, there had been a rash of problems with both at the time, other threads had been shut down that way and members were on edge about it.

I'm quite proud of the way I handled that thread. I had just become a moderator two days earlier, and was still learning the ropes (there's a lot of ropes), but I thought I did pretty well for a newbie mod.

And hey, maybe I did handle it wrong. I'm always open to critiques -- of what I actually do, of course.

Just let me know.

The One Thing

But all this is an ad hominem digression. My post history is irrelevant to the question of whether the Protocols are authentic or not. "Fact or fiction".

On topic, what matters is not what we think about each other, but this:

Are the Protocols real, and if so, what proof is there of this?

Originally posted by Majic
The expression "real or not" jumps out at me. After all, that's what this thread is about, and it's a rather important question.

What evidence can you or anyone else present which actually establishes the authenticity of the Protocols?

"Authentic" means what, exactly? IMO, twitchy's mention of Animal Farm makes the point: Just because an author uses other sources, text and ideas and cobbles them together in a different book, doesn't remove the authenticity of the ideas. I am willing to agree that the Protocols were made up with some borrowed text from other locations, and probably were not written by some super-zionist. BUT, the question becomes this: If it was written by someone else, but the content of the text is based in fact, then one can assume the writer/cobbler of the Prot's has at least as much credibility as George Orwell? I find the protocols to be more insightful than Animal Farm, yet one's a classic and one's not even allowed to be discussed.

To date I have seen none. Not in this thread, not anywhere.

I have quoted the Prot's in this thread and the description fits what's happening and what has been happening in America. America is controlled by the UK's desire to support their Israel state at all costs. This cannot be denied.

But all this is an ad hominem digression. My post history is irrelevant to the question of whether the Protocols are authentic or not. "Fact or fiction".

Both animal Farm and the Prot's are fictional in origin, but if they both contain analogues or actual events which parallel the real world, then it is fair for people to discuss them without this kind of "swastika" talk from persons like yourself. Using the aside toward "nazis and swastikas" isn't going to help anyone. You've typed a lot of words here, but really is there a point? And more importantly, can you make it clearly?

Please show me where someone can trace their Jewish lineage back past 725AD when the Khazars were the controllers of the Eastern border to Asia. Also, can you explain why the UK decided to encourage "Jews" to return to Israel circa 1900? This repopulation of "semites" back to "semitania" seems also to have a rather large strategic side to it, right? Why does the Jewish 2000 year claim (to a land they stole on their god's orders) have so much merit? I don't see any US person advocating moving the Cherokee indians back to their homeland, and surely this sort of project would have more merit. But you see, it wouldn't provide any strategic benefit.

You mention that anyone can become a Jew, but that's just my point. It's the jewish religion which aims to cover the earth in their laws. I don't like needless laws and so I hate that religion. Judaism treats all humans like scum unless they bow to the torah, which has maybe .01% of the divine inspiration of say, The Bagavad Gita. Yes, I do loathe the jewish religion, but I do not hate those people as you say, who accept that religion. At least we can agree that no more than half of them are actually descendants from the middle east, right?

Also, when you were in your "nazi research" days, did you come across anything about how Zionism was the only group allowed to operate in Nazi Germany? Or the last-minute attempts to sell prisoners' freedom from the death camps, with no takers? I ask because I cannot understand how any honest person can look at the facts and not see that Judaism has been hijacked.

The protocols contain descriptions of our current state: Living on a fiat currency as total and complete debtors with no real money to speak of. Then we see Rothchild's name on the Dubai Ports loan and you say we shouldn't pay attention to what's going on? If for nothing else, the Protocols should be read for the methodology which they contain, and which is being applied today. Does that make them "real" or "factual"? Well, no more than the Bible Code books I guess.



[edit on 13-8-2006 by smallpeeps]

Originally posted by Majic
Alternatively you can Google or -- since it's such a noteworthy pattern -- just work from memory. Or from my post history.

With "thread after thread" to choose from, it shouldn't be a problem.

Propaganda Police

It's a not a problem, already you are following a very patterned predictable behavior. You will keep telling us to stay on topic, stay on topic, and even perhaps go so far as to list what angles are acceptable angles for discussion and what links we might use are acceptable until this thread becomes sterilized or stereotyped.
I'll illustrate just a few examples of this Rabbit in Your Hat...
697377 Bobby Fischer is Compared to Hitler.
891661 Here you say Jesus Wasn't the son of God, that you are "unable to reconcile Christianity with any semblance of reason or truth."
939781 "more literal and accurate Hebrew...The "Virgin birth" is straight out of Hellenistic myths..."
979835 "Congratulations! Your post qualifies for a Godwin Award for mentioning Hitler. Additionally, you get a Robert C. Byrd Award for referring to Jews as "owners" of the U.S. At this rate, you are well on your way to winning a Lifetime Achievement Award from the Aryan Nations."
1042801

Originally posted by Majic

Originally posted by Journey
And the Isreali's are God's Chosen people?

Ask God.
As For The Topic
Like so many other stories from this source, it will probably be left uncorroborated and just become one more tale of "the Evil Jews".

1093903 "Quoting Paid Anti-Semitic Provocateurs"
1188678 "Unless you have met every Jew in the world personally, you are telling us you are a bigot and motivated by hatred instead of the truth. In this case, I'll take your word for it. The Jews are not the source of all evil, but the darkness in your own soul which consumes you is."
1202682 "People hate jews and hate Zionism because they fear them."
1385387 "A devout Jew would never suggest that another Jew -- or anyone, for that matter -- so much as simulate drinking blood. That is decidedly non-kosher, as is eating human flesh. Not coincidentally, Jews are very touchy about that because of blood libel. Either Jesus was a devout Jew, as he claimed himself to be, or he wasn't.
1385725 "Jesus was not a liar, but falsely credited with speaking many lies which he never spoke.... our true Creator is not a liar, does not disseminate lies, and does not warn us to avoid using the minds we were born with. Only false gods do that."
1455655 "9/11? Bush did it. (Or Jews, if you prefer)."
1538981 "There are a lot of bogus stories surrounding 9-11, and the claim that no Jews were in the WTC is one of them."
1662481 "Emperor Hadrian named all of Israel “Palestine” as a slap to the Jews"
1730691 "I suppose the same thing one could expect from the "jew run" House of Representatives which passed this bill, and the "jew run" Senate which is also expected to pass it. Of course, both legislative bodies are controlled by the "jew run" Republican Party, and there are unsubstantiated -- and therefore believable -- rumors that President Bush may, in fact, be secretly Jewish. Since Jews already run the world (ask anyone), however, this is just a formality to bring all the slave nations in line with the whims of their Jewish masters.
1874865 "But the fate of the entire world is intimately tied to the fate of Israel"
1887886 "DiSSposability In Action"
2112701

Originally posted by Majic
Now if those pesky Jews don't get her and she can keep from abusing the help, I imagine she'll be free to preach the "alternative agenda" from her bully pulpit for years to come.

951698 "First, I present to you the coveted Godwin Award for so cleverly weaving Nazis into the thread. World class!... I am also proud to announce your worthiness to receive the Robert C. Byrd Award for gratuitously invoking an ethnic stereotype."
959720 "Yet another proud Godwin Award winner."
991637 "Look out America, the next big thing is Nazi Rock!"
1022547 "I say we should welcome the Nazi party into the mainstream, because frankly, it doesn't look so great under the spotlight without makeup."
1131158 "There are plenty of other threads that address the same topic this one does without erroneously dragging Nazis into the discussion and clouding the real issues at hand."
1131772 "Speaking of primitive thinking, here's your Godwin Award."
1154075 "But there are certain types of vain and arrogant fools in this modern age who believe hurling epithets like "Nazi" gives them some sort of moral authority, and resort to it when their limited knowledge fails them in a discussion....I still feel compelled to give it a Godwin Award"
1160414 "He's just whining because his cult isn't bossing people around anymore."
1188766 "adolescent and ignorant misuses of the term that leads to Godwin Awards.
1197975 "you're gunning for a Godwin Award."
1267758 "Oh, and here's your Godwin Award."
1342349 "Has it occurred to you that portraying anyone as a Nazi who isn't one is defamation and a lie?" (For Once We Agree on Something)
1460965 "for those members expressing an unfortunate degree of confusion and ignorance on the matter, here's an article describing what real Nazis actually are that I hope they may find informative and educational."
2014219 "embracing Nazi ideology"
680505 "Godwin's Law has been observed."
704989 "Godwin's Law FAQ"
711999 "Herr Majic Thread Feuhrer; Drama Queen; Uncommon Troll, 3rd Class ?Achtung! Ze Guidelines vill be Observed!? Godwin's Law FAQ"
715779 "And don?t forget, when you?re talking Nazis, you?re talking Godwin's Law!"
951383 "Congratulations! You win the Godwin Award."
982423 "a term frequently used by ATS members who cannot speak intelligently about the actual topic of a thread, see Godwin's Law"
1029917 "I totally have to present a Godwin Award right off the bat."
1131129 "but aside from earning a Godwin Award, all this talk of Nazis and Naziism that has no reasonable connection"
1936522 "I'll gladly present and accept a Godwin Award for comparing these scurrilous and similar tactics."
2413369 "Godwin And Me"

That really is just a few examples majic, it goes on and on, and I would go on but the process is tedious and doubtless fruitless given your stance of glaringly obivous Semitophilia. You keep trying to get us 'back on topic' as usual, but I would remind you preemptively, that the Protocols of Zion are Zionist, to try to filter this discussion to exclude it will be utterly ridiculous. One might in fact be tempted to give you a Godwin Award. As to their validity, I already said plainly that REAL OR NOT they are eerily prophetic, and my previous post illustrates that concept pretty well, and is right on topic. If there were proof of their validity Majic, then the title of this thread would be innapropriate wouldn't it?
How about the validity of any manuscript? The Bible? Just because there are copies of it, can you prove the Bible, indeed the Torah, or even The Epic of Gilgamesh, or Old Yeller, or Ethyl the Aardvark Goes Quantity Surveying are legitimate manuscripts? Let's not kid ourselves here, my point again is that Real Or Not, they describe a very real trend in our international and geopolitical reality.

Obvious Glare

Originally posted by twitchy
That really is just a few examples majic, it goes on and on, and I would go on but the process is tedious and doubtless fruitless given your stance of glaringly obivous Semitophilia.

That's quite an impressive research project, but it's undermined by its own vagueness.

Am I a "Semitophile" because I object to Nazis being dragged into discussions that don't have anything to do with Nazis? Most of the examples you give ("Godwin Awards") are for precisely that. See: Godwin's Law.

Highlighting my disdain for the ignorant, inappropriate and off-topic invocation of Nazis doesn't seem to bear on your point at all. I've already apologized for my own "slip" with the swastikas (in fairness, my copy of the Protocols came from such a site), which also doesn't support your contention.

The other examples, however, do indeed show a pattern of my own personal disgust with bigotry and deceit, for which I will never apologize.

The Unforgivable Crime Of Opposing Bigotry

So fine, I oppose bigotry against Jews. I happen to oppose all forms of bigotry -- a fact which your search criteria doesn't seem to take into account.

For example, in addition to opposing bigotry against Jews, I oppose bigotry against Muslims and Arabs as well, and invite anyone who is interested to review my posts on the issue (here's an example). Arabs are a Semitic people. Does my opposition to bigotry against Arabs also make me a "Semitophile"?

The fact that I oppose bigotry is not a crime, not relevant to this topic and -- as far as I can tell -- doesn't make your point.

And your point, for that matter, is nothing more than an ad hominem argument which seeks to discredit me as a person instead of proving me wrong. This thread wasn't started as a referendum on me and what I've posted in other threads, nor should it become one.

Why are you trying to put me on trial here?

If you don't have a valid argument, why not admit it instead of repeatedly trying to shoot the messenger?

The Cruel Shackles Of Topical Discussion

Originally posted by twitchy
You keep trying to get us 'back on topic' as usual, but I would remind you preemptively, that the Protocols of Zion are Zionist, to try to filter this discussion to exclude it will be utterly ridiculous.

How is focusing on the topic ridiculous? Is staying on topic something you disapprove of? Am I truly wrong to want this discussion to stay on topic?

Along with expressing disdain for the topic, you've made a statement I consider to be inherently false: if the Protocols were written to discredit Zionism, then to claim that "the Protocols of Zion are Zionist" would not only be wrong, but as wrong as wrong can be.

And indeed, you just said "the Protocols of Zion are Zionist". Not only that, but you said that "to filter this discussion to exclude it will be utterly ridiculous" -- reminding me "preemptively", no less.

So not only are the Protocols Zionist, but we'd better believe it!

These are very strong words. I think they're false, and I challenge you to provide the evidence which led you to say otherwise.

Explaining that would at least would bear on the question of whether they're fact or fiction.

Oh My Godwin!

Originally posted by twitchy
One might in fact be tempted to give you a Godwin Award.

The Protocols were used as part of a campaign to exterminate Jews by the Nazis, Nazis clearly had a lot to do with them, adopted philosophies based on them, published them extensively and Nazis continue to promote them to this day.

But I've already agreed that this doesn't relate to whether they're true or not and apologized for the digression, so I see no reason to beat a dead horse.

Proven Without Proof

Originally posted by twitchy
As to their validity, I already said plainly that REAL OR NOT they are eerily prophetic, and my previous post illustrates that concept pretty well, and is right on topic. If there were proof of their validity Majic, then the title of this thread would be innapropriate wouldn't it?

So am I to understand that you think the actual topic of this thread is inappropriate? Are we not supposed to be talking about it for some reason?

More to the point, are you asserting that there is no proof that the Protocols are valid?

A List Of Things Which Don't Have To Do With The Topic

Originally posted by twitchy
How about the validity of any manuscript? The Bible? Just because there are copies of it, can you prove the Bible, indeed the Torah, or even The Epic of Gilgamesh, or Old Yeller, or Ethyl the Aardvark Goes Quantity Surveying are legitimate manuscripts? Let's not kid ourselves here, my point again is that Real Or Not, they describe a very real trend in our international and geopolitical reality.

That's all fine and good, but none of these things have to do with whether the Protocols are authentic or not.

I've agreed to focus on the topic and apologized for my own off-topic lapses.

Why is expecting others to do the same (no apologies required, by the way) expecting too much?

House Of Cards

You've posted long lists of things to this thread, none of which prove anything about the Protocols.

Others have turned this thread into a catch-all flamefest against Zionism, Israel, Jews, etc -- all leveraging the Protocols as an excuse and opportunity for these patently off-topic tirades.

I'm asking that we address the topic, and you're carrying on like that's some sort of imposition.

Why shouldn't we talk about whether the Protocols are fact or fiction?

The Protocols of the Elders of Zion - Fact or Fiction?

We've had a blast talking about me, Jews, Khazars, Bolsheviks, Semitophiles, etc., and both of us are prone to novel-length posts which most people don't bother reading, but seriously, that doesn't answer the question infinite asked over two years ago, and many of the posts I've seen in this thread seem to have little or no connection to that question.

My answer to the question is: Fiction

I'm convinced the Protocols are fake, and there's an overwhelming amount of evidence supporting my opinion, some of which I have referenced above. Meanwhile, there is scant evidence that they are genuine.

But I want to know what you really think, so please tell me.

What is your honest opinion: Fact or Fiction?



[edit on 8/14/2006 by Majic]

I understand your point, but also offer that some of the ideology contained in The Protocols
has been adopted by a select few elitist factions into real world events and practices.

We also have our share of other deeply corrupt individuals who manipulate their chosen religions
for personal gain.

Religion is a tool to those who take every advantage of schmoozing to benefit from it.

I'm fairly certain The PTL and 700 Clubbers have some action plan
that works in their favor too.

We would all be billionaires if we knew all those precious dirty little secrets of how things work
in that arena.

So my argument about The Protocols stands as more a question of practice vs. origin

Many " Holy Scriptures " are a collection of stories and many will argue till the end of time whether their text is fact or fiction.

That did not stop huge masses of people from adopting the principles and manipulating them
to suite their own needs.

In other words, a book of fiction can inspire real events.

Chicken And Egg

Originally posted by FallenFromTheTree
I understand your point, but also offer that some of the ideology contained in The Protocols
has been adopted by a select few elitist factions into real world events and practices.

Lest I be mistaken: just because I think the Protocols are fake doesn't mean I think there aren't powerful elites in the world.

As best I can tell, there are indeed very powerful elites which could be reasonably characterized as "Jewish", "Zionist", etc. No arguments from me about that.

There are definitely Jews and Zionists in high places and in control of massive amounts of wealth and power.

But what I take strenuous exception to is the bigotry which holds that because there are powerful Jews in the world, all Jews are in on it and trying to take over the world.

The Protocols are used to bolster this pernicious and deceitful mindset.

Bigotry: An Open Secret

I see it a lot around here.

It's got to be one of the most embarrassing blotches on the face of modern conspiracy theory.

It's akin to claiming that all Italians are mafiosi, or all Irish are IRA members, or all Americans are members of the KKK.

It's a gross fallacy and one which is self-evident -- yet apparently still beyond the mental grasp of some.

And yes, it stinks of the American Front, Aryan Nations, Aryan Brotherhood, American Nazi Party, British National Party, Canadian Heritage Alliance, Heritage Front, KKK, National Alliance, Posse Comitatus, Volksfront, White Aryan Resistance and oh so many others who have built their petty empires upon such fallacies and promulgate them throughout the world -- and sing the praises of the Protocols, not-so-coincidentally enough.

People usually don't believe these sorts of fallacies unless they're fed to them. I've studied this phenomenon for years. I know it well.

So when I see insinuations that "the Jews are trying to take over the world", I get suspicious, because right then I know that whatever comes next comes from a foundation of fallacy and is therefore probably false or misleading.

I know a lot of Jews. They aren't trying to take over the world, just trying to get by like everyone else.

That doesn't mean that some Jews aren't trying to take over the world, just that it's foolish to assume or falsely assert that they all are.

Yes, there's a difference.

Deadly Incantations

Originally posted by FallenFromTheTree
In other words, a book of fiction can inspire real events.

Indeed, and the Protocols certainly stand as a shining example of that.




P.S. And um, sorry for the rant. Getting back on-topic (for about ten milliseconds ), I think the Protocols are false, and that's why I take such exception to their use as a tool for spreading ignorance and hatred.

I oppose these things, therefore I oppose the murderous slander of the Protocols and those who perpetuate it.

[edit on 8/14/2006 by Majic]

In linguistics and ethnology, Semitic (from the Biblical name "Shem") was first used to refer to a language family of largely Middle Eastern origin, now called the Semitic languages. This family includes the ancient and modern forms of Amharic, Arabic, Aramaic, Assyrian, Akkadian, Hebrew, Maltese, Syriac, Tigrinya, etc.

There is no such thing as a Semitic race, but there are Semitic languages and ethnicities to which the term applies, including Jews and Arabs.

Meanwhile, "anti-Semitic" has come to mean "anti-Jewish", but that doesn't mean all Semites are Jews, nor even necessarily that all Jews are Semites.

Majic - Thank You for Posting that & Dispelling Ignorance. I hear the term "Anti-Semitic" thrown around so much in the Media - in actuality they are using it to mean "Anti-Judaic". I believed that most Americans didn't know what the heck they were talking about when they used that term - thanks for clearing it up for everybody!!!

It's akin to claiming that all Italians are mafiosi, or all Irish are IRA members, or all Americans are members of the KKK.

Also don't forget that all Arabs are part of Al-Qaeda Terrorism. Good call Magic! You get another point for Dispelling Bigotry!!!

Twitchy - OK, Communism - I know it sucks! But you are not blaming the Jews as a whole for the Creation of "Communism" are you? I thought that they were supposed to be these big bad Illuminati Global Bankers (Capitalist obviously). Isn't that a Contradiction?

Oh but I know what you are going to say next - they are sneaky and play both sides of the game. Aren't you just chasing a Phantom here?
Lets just admit that the World is WAY too Complex to pin all of its problems on one group of people.

[edit on 14-8-2006 by Seraphim_Serpente]
[edit on 14-8-2006 by Seraphim_Serpente]

[edit on 14-8-2006 by Seraphim_Serpente]