Legion, self hating jews are not a new concept, in fact they are no more unheard of than a black man who talks badly about other black people, or a christian who hates the church etc. All groups have encountered such things.

Anyways I must mention in reply to you, Legion, that no one is calling the Protocols a fake book entirely. They are a real book. Someone wrote them, we just disagree on who.

As ECK said, is not a matter of who wrote them but what has been written has come to pass. The Protocols do have some truth in them, but it's not the jews who are to blame for it or freemasons. This could well be the work of the illuminati, a typical cult that wants to rule the world. So illuminati wrote this, why blame it on the jews? simple, to turn the attention away from the real people behind the conspiracy.

[edit on 20-6-2004 by infinite]

well im jewish and im not conquering the world... yet
but seriously, the protocals are the biggest load of #.

Originally posted by infinite
Off the topic, this thread wasn't created so we can insult jews and freemasons. The protocols have created anti-semitism and anti-masonic views throughout Europe and the world, anymore of racist views on this thread, i will have it closed.

Please don't ruin a good thread

Racism is nowadays equated with hatred for other races e.g. "animosity towards other races: prejudice or animosity against people who belong to other races
Encarta® World English Dictionary © & (P) 1999 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved. Developed for Microsoft by Bloomsbury Publishing Plc.
However the definition of "racism" that one finds in older dictionaries is the same as "racialism" - belief in the inequality of races, and in any unequal situation one thing is preferred over another. This is true throughout the natural world.
From their writings and expressed opinion of many of their political and religious leaders the Jews seem to fit snuggly in this definition. I am not referring to individuals but to the race in general.

If you read what I wrote, properly, you will see that I'm not guilty of racism or racist remarks.

Just on a point of order: Truth, per se, is NOT subjective. Truth is made subjective by people for their own personal agendas. It then no longer qualifies as Truth.

So don't close the thread on your erroneous belief that anything said about the Jews that do not fit with the present accepted norms automatically must be perceived and labelled as "racist" or "anti-semetic". That is censorship of the highest form. But if you choose to do so try not to use, in the future, high moral sentiments such as "freedom of expression" and "the right to be critical" which only pay lip service to accepted beliefs but are not followed by concrete actions.

I have jewish blood from my mother and my father is israelian arab. Hole my life I have been tryin' to find me, who I am, if I can't be a jewish arabchristian (is it even possible???) so I have chosen the most loving and emphatic personality and trying to follow the bible, believing in the Word and having "sapatti" in finnish, jewish holiday uknow...

The protocols of the zions....
Who wrote it?? It doesn't matter like you have proven..

Is it true??? well if you know personally a lot of jewish people who are trying to take over the world, it might have some base, but I doubt it.
Why don't we discuss, how the germans and austrian are trying to take the world because of Hitler.. Or French people because of napoleon, or spaniards and eglishmen.. they defenately had something going on in the 16th century..
But still... because some people who don't even have the support of the jewish people you know and no prove that jews are trying control us and might not have even been jewish, you are saying, that jewish ARE trying to be the head of the world, make every gentile to come poor etc.

You are just trying to blame someone.. If there's no conspiracy, humans "create" one, if there's no God, we create one, if there's no jewish doing Satan's work, you guys create one..

Originally posted by Djarums
As usual people on here prove that they are incapable of debating anything of this sort without throwing in their personal anti-(insert group here) views.

I'm saying this one last time. If you can't discuss these kinds of topics without throwing in your personal private views of hating other people then please keep your mouths shut and stay off this site.

This thread was an analysis of a literary work and perhaps an inquiry into who actually wrote it. Instead you have turned it into you attacking and me defending the Jewish religion and its principles. I'm not interested in debating this with you here and sidetracking the topic. As I said before and as you ignored before: If you wish to debate this you may u2u me and I will share the actual meaning of such things with you. You lack any knowledge of the Jewish religion other than hate sites that people like you consider "authorities". I'm showing myself as willing to help you with your inadequacy but instead you're insistent on using other sites to disprove my firsthand translations. That's fine. I'm not ruining this thread to fight your ignorance. Honestly, if your belief is that followers of Judaism believe that they are free from all sins then you probably aren't worth debating with anyways.

Think of it this way: if this magic prayer you refer to frees them from all sins in the next year too, well then why do they have to say it every year? Shouldn't they be covered from last year's prayer? Oh I forgot, there wasn't any factual basis in what you said to begin with.

[edit on 6-20-2004 by Djarums]

In the first place the views I express are not "private" nor do they express "hate" towards "other people" (you actually mean Jewish people).
You say this thread was an analysis of a literary work, which you have already labelled as a "forgery" and you then have the gall to say >You lack any knowledge of the Jewish religion other than hate sites that people like you consider "authorities".< That is a good one. If one uses other sources from those approved by you they are just showing ignorance, even if those sources come straight from the (kosher) horse's mouth. And, to you, they are all "Hate" sites. That, I supoose, is not bigotry on your part.
You must indeed carry a big chip on your shoulders. Is it a guilty one?
There is one redeeming feature in your post - you can be as sarcastic as I and I appreciate that.

[edit on 20-6-2004 by avflf]

Originally posted by Fennomaniac
I have jewish blood from my mother and my father is israelian arab. Hole my life I have been tryin' to find me, who I am, if I can't be a jewish arabchristian (is it even possible???) so I have chosen the most loving and emphatic personality and trying to follow the bible, believing in the Word and having "sapatti" in finnish, jewish holiday uknow...

The protocols of the zions....
Who wrote it?? It doesn't matter like you have proven..

Is it true??? well if you know personally a lot of jewish people who are trying to take over the world, it might have some base, but I doubt it.
Why don't we discuss, how the germans and austrian are trying to take the world because of Hitler.. Or French people because of napoleon, or spaniards and eglishmen.. they defenately had something going on in the 16th century..
But still... because some people who don't even have the support of the jewish people you know and no prove that jews are trying control us and might not have even been jewish, you are saying, that jewish ARE trying to be the head of the world, make every gentile to come poor etc.

You are just trying to blame someone.. If there's no conspiracy, humans "create" one, if there's no God, we create one, if there's no jewish doing Satan's work, you guys create one..

Throught history people have tried to subjugate other people or, more to the point, leaders of one people tried to conquer the leader and the peoples of another country or race. The lust for power seems to be a human charecteristic. The reasons behind not allowing each group to "live and let live" are numerous, one of which is the belief that average people do not know what is good for them and need to be dictated to by those who feel themselves qualified to rule the masses. Given that and the supposedly inhability of the human races to live peaceably among themselves this tendency will not disapear in the foreseeable future.
But that, per se, is not evil. If a race can assert itself above all others and control them evil is perceived by the conquered not by the conquerors. To them the triumph is all-empowering and righteous. "Different strokes for different folks" so to speak. And if one nation imposes its will on another good for the former. I have no quarrel with it. So, if the Jews are indeed trying to conquer the world, good for them, I admire them for their efforts. But it is up to the other nations to resist if they want to keep their autonomy, culture and ideology. Simple as that. If they do not resist that is their decision and they deserve whatever is coming to them.

You people are all so damn sensitive and conditioned to linguistics it's FREAKING ME OUT!!!

WAKE UP!!!

We've all been asleep for such a long time, but now we must shake off the dust bunnies and wipe crud from our eyes and start getting a focus on REALITY once again. Or perhaps for the first time ever, or whatever, you get what I'm saying.

All you people who are getting pissed about remarks being made against this Race or that Race, do yourselves a favor. Drop the emotional baggage! It's just making life harder for you. It is also giving more recognition to 'the finger pointers' than they deserve.

As for all you 'Pointing Fingers' at This Race or That Race or Club So and So or Such 'n Such Organization, etc. do yourselves a favor. Point that finger up your 'Wazzoo' for a change, cause that will be the closest you've ever been in 'Fingering the Cause of All Your Problems'.

Now, the both of you take a deep breath and just listen to me for one second, please. I thank you for your time!

First, let's deal with the 'Language Conditioning Problem'. We all need to remember that these are just words or better yet, communication packets used to 'Represent' Ideas or Actual Things. They are not 'Real' on their own and require Your Will to Give them Meaning. That goes for both 'Giving' and 'Receiving' ends Individually. Always remember, You Control Them, Not the other way around!! So if you are feeling threatened, that means you are 'Will-ingly' being the Victim.

Now, if you notice yourself being the Victimizer, it's time for you to wise up, cause you're gonna be all alone soon, abusing yourself by default at that point, until you finally learn. Since there is no point in all that, just 'get it' over with now and save yourself the trouble. What I am trying to say is that all those 'Bogey Men', 'Races', 'Stereotypical Labels' and so forth. All fake. All Illusions. Mental Classifications who's Meaning is a Concept in your own mind so that it can try and limit and control something(s) which have 'Will' of there own. Think about it. If you're lost in the dark woods and hear some hungry howls coming your way, do you blame 'The Wolves', or should you worry about that Actual Pack coming to eat you? Mental Concepts are invisible and you'll never beat what isn't real. Keep your focus on 'The Ball' not 'The Pitch'.

That's it. Now shake hands and get outta here ya crazy kids!!

As for the Protocols of Zion. Are they being used? Well, if I'm reading the same thing all you guys are, I'd say it's either that or one hell of coincidence!!

Who's behind it all then? Hmmmmm......Well, since the entire thing is about how to f*ck over the entire world using mind control, manipulation and always being at least 5 steps ahead of everyone else. Plus it seems to work REALLY WELL TOO, just by looking around at things now. I'm guessing that I shouldn't assume anything or trust that it will actually lead me to the bad guys either. I guess the only thing to do is check all you Sneaky Bastards One by One to know for sure. Until then each and every one of you will be on my 'Watch List' until I separate 'Asses' from the 'Masses'!!

mOjOm, three words...what the f@ck?
You have completely lost me on this one

That is when I M F U Q T and grab 7 & 7 or a B-52, 86 the whole idea, and say TTFN!

That is when 'I am F*cked" and grab a '7 & 7 or a B-52' (Which are both mixed drinks), 'Forget' the whole idea and say "Ta Ta For Now'! Just some Single Digit Humor kind of thing ya know..... Yah, I'm a nerd, so what?

My point was that your post about it being the 'Jews' behind the protocols. Which Group of Jews are you speaking about. There are Zionist Jews and Jews against Zionists. Then there are Zionists who may not even be Jews, but supporters of Zionism. Also Jews who are only Religious Jews and not of the Jewish Bloodline.

Make sense now?

Ah i see,
My theory on the whole protocol is that it was not written by jews, my guess is the illuminati. The Protocols were probably wrote to make the whole Zionist movement, which was going on at the time, seem like a plot to take over the world. The real people behind the protocol are the group that want to take over the world, the jews are just being used as a scapegoat.

Now when we speak of the so called "jews", we are simply refering to people that claim to be jews, but in fact, they have nothing to do with jews,zionism,etc. Does that clear everything up?

That is possible. The Illuminati is even more 'Non-Revealing' than 'The Jews' though. They could be Really Sneaky and be

Illuminated Jewish Hindu's, who Renounced their Heritage and became Nazi Pagan Transsexuals to shake things up before Revealing to the World that they kept their fingers crossed when Renouncing their Heritage, therefore making them Once Again & Still Jewish, yet changing The Illuminati Term into just The Ill, thereby really making the Protocols coming from what is now known as 'The Jewills'. Very clever indeed since they are often known to be into Jewels too!!

Damn their cleverness!!!

Personally, I think we should be extra careful in selecting the potential enemies as we don't want to miss one of these slippery bastards or it may result in Eon's of suffering again. Let's just round up everyone on the Bilderburg List, and start lancing them one at a time, ass-first onto 30 foot wooden poles. After the first few, someone will start talking and naming names!!

AVF, you make many valid points in your post and i'd like to address them. I'll do so without any "attitude" so mojom doesn't have a fit.

Firstly, my reference to the Protocols as a literary forgery is referring to the usage of this Book as an excuse for people to reason that the Jews have this long secret plan that they all are involved in to take over the world. That, my friend, is the fraud. It has been proven by many intellectuals that this is simply not the case. As I stated above, I am not arguing the existence of this book. It was circulated LONG before my birth and I am in no position to say it does not exist. What I dispute however is the above mentioned theories of how it shows a conspiracy of jews vs. the world.

As for my comments on you lacking knowledge of the Jewish religion, well I stand by that comment. You showed me that you didn't understand the prayer you quoted, at all. I didn't quote it initially, you did. Again that is of no fault of your own personally. I don't believe that by using my firsthand knowledge to criticize thirdhand analyses of this religion I am being close minded or bigoted. If you were a chemist and I was a layman in that field, I would have to admit that you know more because you have firsthand experience in it. For you to use an incorrect translation of a language I speak fluently to prove a point to me and refute my firsthand translation as ignorance makes me wonder what point you actually were trying to make.

Now about any "guilty" chip on my shoulder in all of this... I'm not sure what you mean by this. Perhaps the fact that I am of a Jewish background and am actually able to discuss these things from a primary perspective instead of secondary and tertiary articles and research is something you haven't encountered before. That's ok. As I said I'd like to be here to help people gain knowledge of something they don't quite understand. Guilt? Well, maybe you think that I'm part of the conspiracy to take over the world... I dunno... if so I don't think I've been doing a great job of it regardless of what the fans of the Protocols seem to think.

Originally posted by Djarums
AVF, you make many valid points in your post and i'd like to address them. I'll do so without any "attitude" so mojom doesn't have a fit.

While I appreciate your concern for me Djarums, you need not bother holding back on 'attitude' for my sake. I guess you read my post in reverse or something cause you obviously got the opposite message from it.

I wasn't offended by anything at all in this post. However, there were others who seemed to be and in their complaining and explaining of who did or did not make a Racist post, it was seriously de-railing this thread from being about The Protocols and into a debate on Anti-Semitics. So I was trying get others to get back to the topic at hand instead of playing 'Victim & Victimizer' all damn day over some words on a screen.

So, by all means, let the attitude fly if you like. Just try and gear it toward The Protocols instead of Racism, as it tends to stray off topic and flood the thread with a battle of Morality.

Originally posted by Djarums


As for my comments on you lacking knowledge of the Jewish religion, well I stand by that comment. You showed me that you didn't understand the prayer you quoted, at all. I didn't quote it initially, you did. Again that is of no fault of your own personally. I don't believe that by using my firsthand knowledge to criticize thirdhand analyses of this religion I am being close minded or bigoted. If you were a chemist and I was a layman in that field, I would have to admit that you know more because you have firsthand experience in it. For you to use an incorrect translation of a language I speak fluently to prove a point to me and refute my firsthand translation as ignorance makes me wonder what point you actually were trying to make.

The Kol Nidre I quoted came from an approved Jewish prayerbook with a parallel english translation. The prayerbook dates from the 1970's so it is possible that it is out of date and you have a more recent copy. As I'm interested in religious beliefs in general I would appreciate if you could give me your rendition. Thank you.

Originally posted by avflf

The Kol Nidre I quoted

Far from any “license to lie,” Kol Nidrei constitutes only a declaration in advance that any voluntary religious obligations a Jew may take upon himself (while inspired by a sermon, for example), should not be binding if it subsequently becomes clear that those additional obligations were unrealistic or unnecessary.

The Code of Jewish Law (Shulhan Arukh), considered authoritative by all traditional Jews, makes clear that the Kol Nidrei prayer’s potency is limited to personal vows of religious obligation

(Y.D. 211:4):

ïéà åîöòì øãðå òáùðù øãð åà äòåáùá àìà íéøåîà åììä íéøáã , ìáà
åòéáùäù éî åøéãä åà åøéáç , íåìë åì ìéòåî äæ ìåèéá ïéà .

This [prayer] refers to a vow or oath promised to one’s self; if the oath
was sworn at the behest of someone else, however, the [Kol Nidrei]
nullification does not work at all.

Thus an innocuous prayer that frees Jews from ill-conceived personal religious vows is distorted by haters into a fiendish component of some Jewish conspiracy to deceive others or that Judaism allows Jews to lie at will.