Who doesn't want You to have Guns? Frightened Cowards and "The Man"

reply to post by stephanies-chase


As someone who has been on this board for a while now and who has debated this topic a lot more thoroughly here many times in the past, one thing I can tell you is that gun control debates are one of the most heated and politically charged topics on the site. People on both sides, myself included, get pretty aggressive while advocating their respective positions and the debates tend to be less than friendly.

Don't let it discourage you. It just comes with the territory.

Originally posted by Rybo666
reply to post by SideWynder

 

haha no offence taken! Thanks for being mature about it! Yes it is a moral thing that such insanely dangerous weapons could even be perceived as a good thing in any sense.

I totally respect other peoples opinions in this matter but personally i cannot not see any logic whatsoever behind it.

Agreed, Guns are "insanely dangerous" They are designed to be so. to expound on this, they are not designed to blow up in your face, thus causing injury to the operator, but modern "guns" are designed to expell a projectile at a very high velocity, with very little effort on the users part.
(kinda like "point and click")

as far as being percieved as a "good thing" that is a "perspective" IE, the hunter, (not so much the "sportsman") but those that depend on actually killing wild game for sustenance, (I know almost unnecessary, but still the exceptions are valid) most likely consider guns a good thing, the animals probably have the opposite perspective..

Those that have had to defend themselves, (for whatever reason, animal attacks included) by using a firearm, most likely consider guns a good thing, (if even for that one split instance that it was "needed") I would imagine the opposite to be true for whomever was on the "wrong end"..

And I would like to commend you for respecting others opinions, for myself, that is all I ask for.. and I do my best to respect others opinions.

As far as the logic behind the opinions, I must say I felt the same as you. (only I was of the opposite opinion), but thanks to alot of the threads on this site, I have been able to see, and come to understand the "logic" behind the differant opinions of this subject.

So inspite of my "preconcieved Ideals",,, interacting, and actually "listening" to posters, such as yourself, I have been able to actually understand, and even on occasion "empathise," ( if not agree ) with your viewpoints..

I do not expect to change your opinion, all I ask is that you try to understand and respect mine.. and if you are able to change mine, or visa versa, well possibly the open exchange of "ideals" is a wonderful thing..

What a misserable world this would be if we all agreed on everything.."progress" would become stagnent... Although I don't mean that we must still use "violence" to make a point.

( I know fantasy utopia ) LOL...

[edit on 3-3-2010 by SideWynder]

Originally posted by bsbray11
reply to post by Southern Guardian

 

I should also through out there that I'm not a partisan person by any means. I thought George Bush and his entire administration were crooks of the lowliest caliber as well. They ALL are. Or else they wouldn't be hand-picked for these positions in the first place.

[edit on 3-3-2010 by bsbray11]

may be they were and maybe they were not... but to get a balanced picture you ought to take a look at some of the dirt bags the annointed one placed in power, that were not vetted nor appointed by congress... and they are called czars..... sound familiar...

reply to post by Pax et Intellectus


One of the big differences in America is our history. The country has grown from east coast colonies to a continent wide nation in less than 500 years. Such rapid growth and expansion. There was a type of rugged individualism that engrained itself on our psyche. Part of that is being prepared to take care of your self and family regardless of the scenario. That is why many people own guns. They are prepared for the worst and praying it never occurs. Kind of like buying long term disability insurance. There is a chance you might need it, but you hope you stay on the right side of the odds.

I have never been afraid to die, but I have had my own life insurance policy since I was 20. I know stuff happens and I want to be prepared so that I don't leave others responsible for my obligations.

America is a fine place to visit. For some reason people believe we run around acting like the old west never died. Truth is America is filled with more kindness and love than most people can imagine.


Edit: I am a horrid typer.


[edit on 3-3-2010 by MikeNice81]

Originally posted by stephanies-chase
reply to post by MikeNice81

 

Good for you. I do find it very responsible of you for having the safe. My whole point is that not everyone is responsible enough to own a gun. I don't necessarily believe they should be illegal but I do think it should be a lot harder to get. maybe there should be a required class on gun safety before you are allowed to purchase one. Maybe there should be background checks on people. I don't know. All I know is that it shouldn't be available to just anyone who wants to carry a gun. there is a difference when "Bob the 36 year old man of 4" wants a gun to protect his family than the 21 year old thug who wants to be cool.

Well before you can get a concealed carry permit (in NC) you have to take a class regarding the laws about storage and use of force. You also have to prove competency of the laws and the ability to shoot with a certain level of competency. In several counties you must have character refrences from non family members signed and submitted with your application for a purchase permit. There is a back ground check for getting a gun permit and when purchasing hand guns legally. All gun purchases require the buyer to have a permit for the gun.

30 other states recognize NC concealed carry permits. The main reasons are because of the strict background checks and classes.

The 21 year old thug that wants to be cool probably isn't purchasing guns legally. In which case there are a number of laws that should be used to prosecute the illegal activity. If the person purchases a gun legally all of the things you say are already in place.

As I said else where, most handgun crimes are committed by criminals in the execution of felonys. Legal gun owners are usually not the cause of crime. Criminals with illegal guns are usually the cause of gun crime. Banning guns will only result in a black market that supplies criminals with guns and fosters corruption among police and other officials.

edit to add a little



[edit on 3-3-2010 by MikeNice81]

Originally posted by stephanies-chase
reply to post by Doc Gator

 

I have pencils...in case I need to write something. I have extra diapers for my baby...in case he takes a poop. Having a gun is not the same thing. It is a dangerous weapon.Spend the money you spent on that gun for a really good alarm system for your house. That my friend is being prepared.

While I understand your examples....I have to highlight and explain my view of the last one.

NO...lol!

Having a really good home alarm, is not being prepared...it, like owning a dog, is an EARLY WARNING SYSTEM. What happens after the alarm rings/Dog barks, warning you of an intruder being in your home, is up to you, UNTIL help arrives. Do not let brinks alarm commercials fool you....
B roadview commercial

you know the one, where the mom/daughter are playing in the backyard, while "Mr. ShoulderPads in a trench coat/hoody" is peering through the fence....the likelyhood that a real criminal will kick in exterior french doors, strike a pose upon hearing the alarm, and sulk away, and not even grab the diaper bag or colored pencil set right in front of him, is very small.

Besides, there's this thing called alarm operator/police RESPONSE TIME?

When seconds count, help is minutes away. Think about it.

But I still respect your views none the less.

[edit on 4-3-2010 by ahmonrarh]

Just my opinion here and nothing else but I have always view the ownership of guns as cowardice.

If we say you can have a gun to protect yourself hen who are you protecting yourself against? A person whop has a gun. Seems simple to me. Nobody has guns nobody needs to guns to shoot people with guns.


Also if guns are somehow the miracle cure to bring peace and protection how come so many people are murdered with guns in America? I think the stats show you gun laws don't work.

I understand that America was built on guns and that is a strong link to how the country became what it is. But like all adults we have to put our toys away when we grow up. It is about time for America to grow up and be an adult now.

reply to post by ahmonrarh


I have been a victim of two home invasions, seperated by 20 years, and 750 miles apart.. the first was when I was at a girlfriends house. and he did have a gun... I got shot, but because of my military training at the time I was able to subdue him with a knife.. ( hand to hand combat training)

the second time (after alifetime in the military, and several combat experiances, and participating in "police actions" "conflicts" and one full blown "war") I had another home invasion, where my Dog (a rotty, chow, shepard mix) was shot, as well as myself.. I was incapcitated, my dog (god love her ) was actually able to literally rip the intruders left testical from his person... thus saving my life...

so as much as I believe in having the right to own and use a firearm to defend yourself, I know from first hand experience that it does not always work out... and yes my dog did survive, but alas she did sucomb to the injuries she recieved, 5 years later....

oh yes I almost forgot, both houses had security alarms.. fat lot of good they did!!!!!!!!!

[edit on 4-3-2010 by SideWynder]

Originally posted by The Teller
Just my opinion here and nothing else but I have always view the ownership of guns as cowardice.

If we say you can have a gun to protect yourself hen who are you protecting yourself against? A person whop has a gun. Seems simple to me. Nobody has guns nobody needs to guns to shoot people with guns.


Also if guns are somehow the miracle cure to bring peace and protection how come so many people are murdered with guns in America? I think the stats show you gun laws don't work.

I understand that America was built on guns and that is a strong link to how the country became what it is. But like all adults we have to put our toys away when we grow up. It is about time for America to grow up and be an adult now.

Americans own gus for many different reasons. One of the big ones is that there is a portion of our population that makes their living by preying on the weak of our society. Those who prey on others often have firearms that were illegally obtained.

I don't know of any magic wand that we can wave to take firearms away from criminals. I know that we can't pass laws that will convince criminals to turn in their firearms. As long as criminals are armed, I will continue to be armed.

I don't want to be in a situation where my only option is to comply with my attacker and hope that the goodness in their heart stops them from killing me.

Firearms in the hands of law abiding citizens levels the playing field. I refuse to be a victim.

Originally posted by The Teller
Also if guns are somehow the miracle cure to bring peace and protection how come so many people are murdered with guns in America? I think the stats show you gun laws don't work.

On the contrary, it is the gun control proponents who seem to believe they have a miracle cure. The problem is that their position is not supported by the data.

Remember, we live in a country where, in a typical year, slightly more than 1/3rd of all US homicides...or 5,000-6,000 per year... do not involve the use of a firearm. What it suggests is that the firearm is merely the most convenient implement available, but that if one is not available, the perpetrator will just use whatever else happens to be available.

So if we ban firearms, we know that the total US homicides will not drop below 5,000, since those never involved firearms to begin with. From there, you have to project how many of the additional 9,000 firearm related homicides will be replaced by another class of weapon. Obviously, at least some of them will, perhaps many of them. We also have to consider the possibility that a firearms ban will embolden criminals and encourage them to be more aggressive, considering that they no longer have the concern of being shot for their effort. That probably leads to another uptick.

The end result is that you would be unlikely to see a dramatic drop in the overall homicide rate if firearms were banned. In the best case scenario, I suspect you might see a quarter of firearm related homicides completely eliminated, which would drop the total number of US homicides from about 14,000 per year to about 12,000. That said, given the unpredictability of such a move and the demonstrated willingness of some perpetrators to use ANY weapon available, I would not be shocked if the total US homicides actually increased after a full firearms ban. The most likely outcome is little to no change.



[edit on 4-3-2010 by vor78]

What I believe the most important thing we need to remember in regards to this debate is freedom. Gun advocates do not want to take the rights of those who want them banned. We just want to be able to practice rights that have been granted to us by the constitution.

On the other side of the coin you have those that want it banned. They want to strip the guns out of the hands of law abiding citizens, that are doing something similar to exercising free speech. You are impeding on our rights.

I say that you want to take the guns out of law abiding citizens, because it is a fact that a law banning firearms will not get them out of the hands of criminals who intend to break the law anyways. If they want to commit a crime and feel a gun will make it easier they will find one, whether it is legal to do so or not.

I for one want to be able to defend my wife and children in the instance of a home invasion, and they do happen, I also want to be able to defend myself from a government that is growing more tyranical everyday.

Thomas Jefferson: The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.

What I believe the most important thing we need to remember in regards to this debate is freedom. Gun advocates do not want to take the rights of those who want them banned. We just want to be able to practice rights that have been granted to us by the constitution.

On the other side of the coin you have those that want it banned. They want to strip the guns out of the hands of law abiding citizens, that are doing something similar to exercising free speech. You are impeding on our rights.

I say that you want to take the guns out of law abiding citizens, because it is a fact that a law banning firearms will not get them out of the hands of criminals who intend to break the law anyways. If they want to commit a crime and feel a gun will make it easier they will find one, whether it is legal to do so or not.

I for one want to be able to defend my wife and children in the instance of a home invasion, and they do happen, I also want to be able to defend myself from a government that is growing more tyranical everyday.

Thomas Jefferson: The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.

reply to post by bsbray11


Bravo! Star and Flag.

I must say that I do enjoy reading the comments from the limp-wristed, wimpy Euro-trash anti-gun ninnys.

We live in a violent and unreasonable world where governments are powerless (or too busy lining the pockets of the bankers) to protect the common man. In such an environment we must realize that there are only two kinds of people in this world. On one hand there are those who are armed and have the skill and resolve to defend themselves and their familys. On the other hand, there are victims.

I truly pity those who have been brainwashed into believing that "guns" are the cause of the problem, for they are doomed to live a life of fear and victimization. The criminals, who by definition ignore the law, can only thrive when their prey is unarmed and afraid. Think about it!

Originally posted by The Teller
Just my opinion here and nothing else but I have always view the ownership of guns as cowardice.

If we say you can have a gun to protect yourself hen who are you protecting yourself against? A person whop has a gun. Seems simple to me. Nobody has guns nobody needs to guns to shoot people with guns.


Also if guns are somehow the miracle cure to bring peace and protection how come so many people are murdered with guns in America? I think the stats show you gun laws don't work.

I understand that America was built on guns and that is a strong link to how the country became what it is. But like all adults we have to put our toys away when we grow up. It is about time for America to grow up and be an adult now.

criminals and their ilk always have guns or ready access to them...that is who we are protecting ourselves from..

you will never get rid of guns... it cannot be uninvented.... period

the same quesion goes to you on this... if doctors and cars are so needed why do so many people die from these two things each year... more than guns do

And guns are clearly not toys.... hopefully you never find yourself in a spot where you need one... I have and since the law enforcement are not required to come bail your butt out... guess what dude? you are literally on your own...

reply to post by lilwolf


Yeah, if the right to bear arms to protect against a tyrannical government isn't necessary, then it isn't necessary to drive to work either. Like you point out, cars kill FAR more people than guns do. And why? Just so it won't take as long to get to work? Come on.

reply to post by projectvxn


Oh please, so your asking emotive beings to quell their
nature because it might offend?
Give me a break sir, part of the nauseating politically correct mantra is an overindulgence in faux offense. Asking people to step outside of their nature in order that discourse attain some sterile elevation, goes beyond the reasonable.
While I do agree that trolling and boorish behavior for the sake of the assinine has no place in a proper dialog, intensity and emotion are not uncalled for.

YouSir

reply to post by YouSir


You can get as emotionally intense as you'd like..
But try to keep it civil. No reason you can't at least make the effort right?

[edit on 4-3-2010 by projectvxn]

I'm with those that believe guns do more harm than good. Quite honestly I never really understood this need that some americans have for their "right to posses firearms". The whole thing looks pretty ridiculous to me as I fail to see why a citizen on the United States would need a gun for protection. Where the hell do you guys live, surely it can't be that bad! This is not "Escape From New York" where you need guns to survive.

I always thought gun control should be restricted to law enforcement and army personal. Actually, I would like to see law enforcement use non lethal weapons only but now I know I'm asking for too much. The paranoid ones believe that the government is trying to take their guns because they are plotting something against when in reality they are merely trying to prevent people from killing each other.

I read the comments of those in defense of firearms and I find them alarming. Some of you people have lost touch with reality if you think guns actually deter crime and would actually make a difference in defending ones life.

Originally posted by Fanatic
I'm with those that believe guns do more harm than good. Quite honestly I never really understood this need that some americans have for their "right to posses firearms".

Just like cars, right? Why does anyone need a car when they have bikes and legs? Do you know how many people die in automobile accidents every year, all over the world? FAR more people than die from civilians carrying weapons for personal protection. Cars are undisputedly a greater threat to Americans than personal firearms.

Walk to work. Get rid of cars. We'll save hundreds of thousands of lives!

Some of you people have lost touch with reality if you think guns actually deter crime and would actually make a difference in defending ones life.

And you think WE have lost touch with reality? You didn't even read the articles in the OP, did you? A town in Georgia passes a law REQUIRING every home to possess a handgun and ammo and breaking and enterings drop to next to nothing, murder almost unheard of. Yeah, I guess they're just making that up.

I don't know where you live but if anything YOU are out of touch with American culture. Ever heard of the NRA? Their slogan is "from my cold dead hands." Americans are serious about their gun ownership. Just like the Swiss. The Nazis didn't even try to invade Switzerland. And imagine if all the Jews in Nazi Germany were packing personal protection. No, that's probably too intense for you to rationalize.


I don't know where you're from but it's a shame so many countries out there have neutered their populations. They can do with you at gunpoint whatever they like, and the only people you'd have to protect you from your own leaders should they turn fascist (assuming you wouldn't just go along with it without a whimper, which may be assuming too much of you), are the criminals packing illegal weapons themselves. Now that's irony. Next you'll probably tell me that governments never turn against their people though, that it's not a legitimate concern, right? Maybe they don't teach you guys history is the real problem.

[edit on 4-3-2010 by bsbray11]

The good thing about people who don't own guns is that you can shoot them without worrying about getting shot back.

I find that the gun control crowd is 1 a psychopath control freak or 2 a person who has never read and understood a shred of human history to understand that the greatest atrocities happen when instated through governments against an unarmed people.

You're life is worth you defending it. Plz don't make the mistakes of the murdered defenseless people who thought self defense was to manly of a cause.

Ending gun ownership only insures that complaint people are easily murdered and abused.

What happens to wild sheep? They are slaughtered for food by coyote and other animals that have offensive capability.

Do you see coyotes attacking grizzlies? I don't think so.

Point is society is just like the circle of life. If you are defenseless you will get yours.

Your are in fact arguing to disarm other human beings because you have lost your instincts to defend and protect yourself.
That is a bit cowardly in my book.
If you don't think your life is worth having protection then don't have it. Don't bust our balls because we have situational awareness .