Who doesn't want You to have Guns? Frightened Cowards and "The Man", page 1

I was encouraged seeing this on the local news:

Virginia House Pass Bills to Relax State Gun Laws

Virginia House lawmakers have pushed through a series of bills making it easier to buy and carry guns.

According to the Richmond Times-Dispatch, the 20 gun-related bills include lifting the ban on buying more than one gun a month, allow guns to be taken into bars, emergency shelters and locked in cars. In addition, new legislation would allow the names of applicants for concealed handgun permits to remain undisclosed to the public unless the applicant gives written consent for disclosure of the application.

blogs.findlaw.com...


It seems that in response to fascists' (like Obama's advisor Sunstein) increasing assertions that individuals do not actually have the right to possess firearms, a blatant attack on the Bill of Rights as every single one of us has been raised to understand it, coupled with all the other attacks on common sense and liberty we have seen from the Federal Government in recent years, more down-to-Earth and cool-headed politicians are prevailing in protecting some of our rights after all.


Who doesn't want us to have access to firearms?

Cowards that are frightened of firearms, probably because they have no experience around them and don't know how to use them.

And of course, fascist federal leaders.


In Britain not only are you not allowed to possess hand guns, you can't even carry certain knives that are longer than 6 inches.

And what has Britain got to show for all of this Brave New World legislation?

The most violent country in Europe: Britain is also worse than South Africa and U.S.

Britain's violent crime record is worse than any other country in the European union, it has been revealed.

Official crime figures show the UK also has a worse rate for all types of violence than the U.S. and even South Africa - widely considered one of the world's most dangerous countries.

The figures comes on the day new Home Secretary Alan Johnson makes his first major speech on crime, promising to be tough on loutish behaviour.

www.dailymail.co.uk...

Handgun crime 'up' despite ban

A new study suggests the use of handguns in crime rose by 40% in the two years after the weapons were banned.

The research, commissioned by the Countryside Alliance's Campaign for Shooting, has concluded that existing laws are targeting legitimate users of firearms rather than criminals.

news.bbc.co.uk...



And THIS is what we see when gun laws are laxed:

Marta crime rate falls in wake of gun law

Violent crime lower following law permitting legalized carry of firearms on mass transit.
Today the Atlanta Gun Rights Examiner brings you a story you are not going to see anywhere else.

The Georgia General Assembly passed HB 89 in 2008, which made criminal prohibitions on carrying firearms on public transportation, in restaurants that serve alcohol, in state parks, and in wildlife management areas inapplicable to Georgians possessing a firearms license. HB 89 took effect on July 1, 2008, and many predicted mass bloodshed as a result. Nowhere was the controversy so acute as the city of Atlanta and its public transportation system.

www.examiner.com...

Gun Ownership Mandatory In Kennesaw, Georgia --- Crime Rate Plummets

The New American magazine reminds us that March 25th marked the 16th anniversary of Kennesaw, Georgia's ordinance requiring heads of households (with certain exceptions) to keep at least one firearm in their homes.

The city's population grew from around 5,000 in 1980 to 13,000 by 1996 (latest available estimate). Yet there have been only three murders: two with knives (1984 and 1987) and one with a firearm (1997). After the law went into effect in 1982, crime against persons plummeted 74 percent compared to 1981, and fell another 45 percent in 1983 compared to 1982.

And it has stayed impressively low. In addition to nearly non-existent homicide (murders have averaged a mere 0.19 per year), the annual number of armed robberies, residential burglaries, commercial burglaries, and rapes have averaged, respectively, 1.69, 31.63, 19.75, and 2.00 through 1998.

www.freerepublic.com...



So in light of this kind of information, and I am telling you people, guns DETER crime, and knowing your would-be victim is packing definitely DETERS violence and crime, who are the people arguing the contrary?

Refer to the thread title.

I suggest you take a look at this graph

www.nationmaster.com...

It seems that the USA has 9355 more murders by firearms than what the UK does. No where near South Africa (where firearms are legal and have much easier to get to), but a huge number compared to most developing countries

Also

In the United States in 2001, firearms were used in 63 percent of murders, according to the Bureau of Justice Statistics National Crime Victimization Survey.The FBI reported that there were 15,980 murders and non-negligent homicides in the United States that year, so about 10,000 people were murdered with guns.

So, countries where guns are legal seem to have a much higher murder rate by firearm than other countries.

Not against your point, but considering the statistics on firearms your argument is pretty weak

Originally posted by Everton
That's because our founding fathers didn't have morals that we share today. They acted on basic insticts

I don't think many people, especially people who know their history, are going to agree with you that our founding fathers did not have morals. You are talking about people like Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, Patrick Henry.

can you imagine a future in which our children have to walk the streets knowing the majority of people around them are armed?

Yeah, I can imagine it, and it would be wonderful. Look man, are you going to give me a bunch of "I'm scared of guns" emotional tripe or are you actually going to look at the stats that PROVE firearms deter violent crime? You seem to fall right into the "frightened coward" category of my post. You're just proving my point.

It'll just inflict fear and worry in most citizens, at the end of the day i cant imagine any other reason to carry a gun other than to cause harm.

You need to go out to a shooting range some time and actually figure out how to use a gun and get over your own fear of it. Like millions of Americans, I was raised around them and there is no fear in them for me. Just because you own a gun, do you think you would suddenly become a murderer? Do you think you would suddenly be tempted to shoot innocent people? Is that what kind of person YOU are? If not, then why do you seem to assume everyone else WOULD do this? If you even live in the US, do you not realize that you are probably around people who are carrying concealed weapons in public on a daily basis? Are you afraid of the POLICE who carry around guns? Why don't they just go around shooting people for the hell of it? You need some common sense about this. Not a lot of fearful emotional tripe. Like I said, you only serve to prove my point perfectly. You are AFRAID of guns. Criminals aren't. And THEY don't have a problem using them against people like you, when it comes down to it.

cow·ard

a person who lacks courage in facing danger, difficulty, opposition, pain, etc.; a timid or easily intimidated person.

dictionary.reference.com...


Read the 4 news articles I posted above.

Being a coward in the face of crime, does not prevent crime from happening.

If you don't step up to the plate to protect yourself, the police still have to, and you can bet your ass they're going to be carrying firearms. They would be stupid not to. And by refusing to take the same responsibility for yourself you are not only failing to exercise a crucial constitutional right, you are handing over your personal responsibility to your Nanny State like a frightened child.

Originally posted by OzWeatherman
So, countries where guns are legal seem to have a much higher murder rate by firearm than other countries.

Not against your point, but considering the statistics on firearms your argument is pretty weak

The numbers you cited in your post, for one thing, were not adjusted for the US's greater population. Also the stats for that website were collected from 1998-2000.

Read this from the BBC:

But the report suggests that despite the restrictions on ownership the use of handguns in crime is rising.

The Centre for Defence Studies at Kings College in London, which carried out the research, said the number of crimes in which a handgun was reported increased from 2,648 in 1997/98 to 3,685 in 1999/2000.

It also said there was no link between high levels of gun crime and areas where there were still high levels of lawful gun possession.

Of the 20 police areas with the lowest number of legally held firearms, 10 had an above average level of gun crime.

And of the 20 police areas with the highest levels of legally held guns only two had armed crime levels above the average.

news.bbc.co.uk...


Now read that, think it over, and tell me where your argument is that LEGAL gun possession contributes to increases in "gun crime."

It specifically says, in the case of the UK, "there was no link between high levels of gun crime and areas where there were still high levels of lawful gun possession."

reply to post by Everton

---

There are more guns than people, people are going to get guns, if you set up anti-gun laws, only law abiding citizens will be defenseless, criminals don't usually buy guns from stores anyways, its all black market and underground trading. So criminals can do whatever they want knowing average joe wont be able to do anything (See every chart and link above)

Seriously... the evidence is all there.

reply to post by OzWeatherman

---

So 10,000 gun deaths out of 300 million privately owned guns. Not too bad. 42,116 deaths from car wrecks in 2001 out of 226 million cars.

And the UK is a land mass smaller than the state of Florida.

Statistics are fun.

reply to post by Everton

---

It's too late for the US, unfortunately. The number of guns on American streets is far too high to be removed. Most European countries, where the fixation on guns and the sense of insecurity is far lower, don't suffer from this rampant desire to arm themselves. Also the level of policing in Europe is far better than in the US, with European officers paid more and expected more of, where people can expect to be protected from any intruders (who are far less likely to exist, due to the decent level of social protection people can expect, and if they do exist, are far less likely to have a gun).

The US is a lost cause as far as it comes to guns - give 'em to everyone. It won't make it a safer place to live, but it won't make it any more dangerous. It's already more dangerous than any other developed country, with far more people in prison. Throwing guns into the mix won't help, but it sure won't hurt. It seems the second amendment was a self-fulfilling prophecy, where the very act of codifying it ensured it would always be needed. Countries where such a right was never ensured haven't suffered from the purported dangers the 2nd amendment serves to protect against, but don't have the ridiculous level of firearm-related murder the US experiences.

reply to post by OzWeatherman

---

You are leaving out some important statistical information there Oz. What is the Per/Capita.

OP, you did miss one possibility, criminals.

Thanks to the other poster using literal license I came up with that one.

Also, anyone using statistics for models must either have a control group or use the same model. Such as the OP did comparing before and after in the UK.

You CANNOT use different models to do comparisons.

Otherwise you bring the whole AGW techniques into play.

reply to post by Sean48

---

Sean, you REALLY have to take Roland the Gunslinger off as your avatar if you keep getting in these threads.

edit to add-

Here you go Sean, I made Roland more synonymous with your beliefs.

[edit on 3/2/2010 by endisnighe]

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