DNA PROOF Jews NOT Semites!!!

Here we are again, questioning the right of Israel to exist. My point is that murky as the history of Zionism is, from terrorism to land purchases under questionable pressure, it has happened a long time ago, it was in our granfather's generation. They also made World War 2, which doubtlessly brought at its end the result of the West's sudden support of an Israeli homeland which they opposed to the tooth before. That is the geopolitical problem of those non-Jewish people already living there, that they suddenly had to take a spillover from the second world war, from Europe mainly, so in terms of their existence, an alien country was placed in their midst overnight.
Then it grew in size an power because of countries led by America - keeping check on the Middle East was important for the new economy was based on oil, you could not just hold the supply price and distribution even without a captain country to keep Arab regimes in check. Then the same captain country was made a bastion of weaponry against the Soviets possible incurring in the same region - which they did - patronizing Iraq, Egypt, as well as the PLO - two countries and one guerilla organization that came to armed conflicts with Israel. Israel was fighting proxy wars against the Soviets on behalf of the American Empire. No wonder the US backed Israel consitently in the UN resolutions, despite every human evidence.

Israel' establishment could have been much less traumatic and legalistic had the Western powers decided to grant Israel's right to foundation BEFORE the war. MAny rightful pruchases could have been granted. Plus, it was done in a haste, it is very difficult to found a decent country in a couple of years time. But the Zionists wanted a clean country ready for all the world's persecuted Jewry.

Anyway, there were several generations already living there, rebuilding and creating a true nation with its language, science, education, military etc. I guess most Israelis would be happy to live on in their chosen land. And since some hold the "God-given" argument, they will never want to surrender.

In its internal poitics and public discussion, Israel is - although a democracy, - very Middle Eastern. It is difficult to understand that dialog for a Norwegian, where democracy means a demand of honesty upon everyone. Just like Palestinians and other Arabs find it sometimes natural to have sensational exaggerations and even outright lies in political speech, there is a tendency for Israeli politics to adopt the same tone. You can simply start to perceive this by counting how many times they keep on inserting phrases like "this is the truth" , "but it's the truth", when in reality many times those "truths" are exaggerated events demonizing enemies etc. If you are saying the truth all the time, there is no need to state it as the truth...

There needs to be a gradual reform in that culture so that this typicaly middle eastern political behavior pattern would be subsumed by a world where people are basically honest to each other, and we start counting the exceptions, not the reverse.

Israel should come out in the open and declare their atomic warheads. They never signed a treaty forbidding them anyway. Promises should be kept and let neutral. The people should be educated against wild nationalist nonsense and bad mass psychology - like the often quoted adage "the Arab will only understand the language of force". Or keep on repeating that self-desctructing mantram until it becomes reality. Low-position, bitter people and outcasts have a socilogical tendency to take on the bad stereotypes projected on them everywhere - see Griffin's study of American Black.

The God-given land promise Is in the Bible but Islam interprets these differently, and so do secular Western states. We should just live with it that this is a lot of Israeli's conviction. Any judgment from an outside forum should disregard that politely, except international religious congresses.

The warhead status which is waiting to be fired on this ancient land comes from geopolitical pressure of the rich part of the world on the poorer parts with material resources to be plundered. Disinvest in oil and the religious problem will be minimized. There is no such guerilla war against Hongkong or the tourist districts of Mexico, again enclaves of the rich West (or North) on poorer countries. Israel would be a tourist attraction, a business centre, not he formidable war force antagonizing all its neighbours unnecessarily, if it were not for the economic and geopolitical pressure. That is why they are trying to exercise some amount of control by all means over the United States. And, 911 - take your guess. Cui bono?

These things would have to be gradually righted if the goal to make Israel live a peaceful existence with its naighbours. That may be the goal of many Israelis, while it is not the goal of the superpowers.

It is not smart to argue their internal arguments externally. Who cares if they believe Sand Hill is the source of divine revelation?

Coming to esoteric beliefs, a seer once told me that the Holy Land (including Palestine) can never be owned. The Earth will resist any such attempt. But it is possible for Jews, Arabs and Christians to live in peace alongside as long as they want co-operation. The more force they will flaunt and the more they will be attacked, and the less understanding they display towards their neighbours' mentalities (such as the above mentioned distrust clause which would come across as racist and generalizing in modern societies), the more peace they could enjoy - in the land of who they believe to be their ancestors. We should not question tat belief, it is simply found in many nationalistic ideologies with prophecies by ancient Kings.

Time to time recently these tenets are rejected in Israel favouring a paranoid mentality in the majority. Many Israelis flee who dislike ardent nationalism. The liberal Jewish communities abroad with a lot of funds towards Israel did not support the Atlantic Block's latest two wars, and will support an Iran war even less. I agree with Chomsky - it is the West that keeps Israel being a permanent war zone, with clever propaganda. As for non-Zionist Jews, let this argument be settled among the Jewry of the world. If there is no war threat, this argument would become irrelevant until non-Zionist Jews would set out to dismantle Israel. But most people having grown up there would automatically disagree.

Originally posted by Josephus23
Being Jewish means that one is practicing a religion. It has absolutely nada, nothing, zipp to do with belonging to a race.
.......
This presents us with quite a conundrum. Judaism is a religion and to qualify for the label of "Jewish", which is necessary in order to be considered a practicing Jew, one must INHERIT this from their mother or grandmother. The qualifications needed to be a member of this religion are based on inheritance; however, other very few exceptions are made. (see above entry on the law of return)

You may want to read what I wrote on the self-determination of the Jewish people on an earlier page. Jewishness is not equated with Judaism. The founders of Israel wanted a haven for all Jews, even for Communist Jews. Inheritance comes into question with non-converts: they have had ancestors that clearly practiced some aspects of Judaism. That is all.

Plus, you cannot turn back time's wheel. What you can do now is tr to live peacefully under the circumstances, and respect Jewry to have a sane way of self-determination. Ever since Hebrew took the place of Yiddish, Israelis tend to look at themselves as a nation on an ethnic basis. This was inevitable.

The article completely contradicts the posters premise. Another failed attempt to attack the jews and Israel. In fact DNA evidence says the exact opposite of the posters claims.

Way to twist the facts.

Hi,

you are about 50% right on the Jews having no dna evidence linking them to being Semites. The problem is that Sephardic jews are indeed of Semite origin, Except for the Ashkenazi Jews.

The ashkenazi jews are basically people who converted to Judaism for politically motivated reasons. There is no dna link, or family tree that you could to prove that they are of jewish origin.

Why do you suppose that there is such a big discrepancy, in which Ashkenazi Jews look Russian and the Sephardic Jews have more of a Mediterranean and/or some Semitic features.

The sephardic jews are the only "real" jews primarily because they were able to co-exist with other ethnic groups. Another problem that you have is that since the Sephardic are the only jews who could trace their lineage back to Israel, then this causes a lot of envy from the Ashkenazi jews who basically dislike and put down the Sephardic jews becuase they are directly linked to being Jewish. Secondly, there is absolutely no Jewish DNA. The idea of the Jewish DNA, was put forth mostly by Ashkenazi Jews because they are basically grasping for straws that don't exist.

Another fact to consider is the prevalance of genetic disease among the Ashkenazi Jewish population. This is caused by inbreeding. You see this with the Ashkenazi's because since their conversion was politically motivated, they wanted to keep "power" among themselves and married only very close friends, distant family members. You don't see this with the Sephardic Jews because since the Sephardic jews are the real Jews, then the Sephardic Jews don't have to: (1) inbreed in order to solidify their political power, or conver from a different ethnic group, since they were already Jewish.

The sephardic jews were able to get along with most other ethnic groups and even went as far as to be established in science, medicine, government and in charity for the public good. They cared for the world in general. The problem is that most of the stereotypes that you here agaisnt the Jews, are those that would most likely fit with the Ashkenazi's. They keep to themselves, only marry other Askhenazi's with even more money than they have.

When you deal with both of these groups, the Ashkenazi's would basically act like if you are invading their territory when even trying to initiate conversation and the Sephardic's are more open and people oriented.

reply to post by Kokatsi


I understand the self-determination of the Israelis, and to be honest with you I, nor anyone that I speak with on a regular basis, nor the United Nations has any problem with the Jews having a state.

I am in NO WAY racist and I have several very good Jewish Friends who agree with me 110% concerning the actions and the behavior of the current individuals who have occupied the state of Israel.

Hamas does disgusting things. The Arabs suicide bomb and kill innocents.
That is without a single doubt, and they should be punished severely for doing so, but what Israel is doing is simply DISGUSTING.

They are using weapons that are classified, but the results are horrendous.

They have no problem literally beating a people into servitude, but, honestly, the only thing that I want to see are the millions of GOOD people who happen to practice Judaism to stand up against their state.

Just as we here in the states need to do the exact same thing.

Shalom.

You are absolutely right, Josephus.
The depleted uranium, the phosphorus etc. are just icing on the cake. The indoctrination acted out by most IDF soldiers comes close to a type of Nazism at worst, and South African style segregation at the best. To some fo these people, "Arabs" are less than human, and they do not give self-determination to them - they deny that such a creature as a Plaestinian exists.
Luckily for national karma, there are a lot of Israelis who do not embrace this ideology, try to work for peace, even at the cost of their personal fame and fortune and safety.

I think collective shadows should have been exorcised with patient psychological work. One good example is Hellinger's family therapy - somehow whenever we encountered family stories that tied to the Holocaust, everything became "radioactive."

Psychologists have written a lot on the post-Holocaust syndrome of Jewish families in Europe and America. Even today, we witness psychological diseases such as obsessive-compulsive neurosis that can be tied to that era.

On top of that, there are the stories of survivors accusing Zionists in Israel in delaying the news of death camps towards the Allies in the interest of their founding of the land.

So this is a very difficult foundation indeed. I think this is where the main problem lies, not in the genetic diversity of Jewry. There is a paranoid mentality in many post-Holocaust Israelis in that "no one can question who we are and what we do" - then they go straight from there to violating UN sanctions and applying forbidden, inhuman weapons, and torture. Not a pretty picture.

Yet I know peaceful Israeli hippies who would certainly not bomb Palestinian homes, and do not give a hoot about reenacting historical wrongs.

A Jewish friend of mine from Budapest once wanted to see Israel. He is sort of energy-sensitive. He turned back on his fist day, because, as he put it, the Holocaust is still alive for those people - and some of them are ready to reenact it for the Arabs. I mean, this can be a direct psychological link to some people there - one they do not question.

Just looking at the stone-throwers in the intifada against the high-tech weaponry of the IDF and then reading the stories of bulldosing homes is enough for me. This is an oppressive, racist regime, despite being founded by persecuted people. Or perhaps because of that - their wounds went way to deep to heal in a single generation...

I think the government of Netanyahu is particularly dangerous. I think he is a warlike man, quite intelligent, and he was behind the dismantling of kibbutzim - which used to be a community-building tool.

Actually, it would be helpful to have a revolution both in the US and in Israel against the leaders who obviously work in cahoots. A revolution I hope would be peaceful like Gandhi's - anyway you could not win with sheer force over nuclear weapons etc... I agree with you on that too...

reply to post by Kokatsi What an excellent post. Sadly, I predict you will not be listened to by many. Your points are just not extremist enough, so nobody will hear them. They will be drowned out by the incessant "white noise" (oh how ironic that phrase is in this context) of MSM babble & the self-referencing, self-congratulatory opinions it seeks to spawn.
I starred you. Hopefully, by pointing out how disgusting I find it that you had none until now will prompt others to go back & do the same, if for no other reason than to make me look foolish to later readers.

reply to post by kozmo


indeed, i did not read all 22 pages before posting. but my post is not a mere recapitulation of yours. we both commented on the futility of historical claims to land in the ME.

But:

i also commented on how the palestinians themselves are a dubious 'nation'. I also commented on how other arab states, and england, are at least as much to blame for the palestinian plight as Israel is. I also noted other people's in the land who have been screwed by the imposition of false boundaries.

i also pointed out the futility of even having this conversation, as if MORE imposed relocation were a solution.

We can fairly discuss the wrongdoings of the Israeli government, but why is this always the slant of the discussion, as if the arab states don't also have bloody hands and violent, repressive regimes? Arabs in Israel are WAY better off than Arabs in most 'arab states'.

It's nothing but prejudice to make Israel the focus of the conversation, or the locus of the region's ancient history of conflict.

Discussions of past wrongs in the ME implicate literally everybody. So enough of it. The question is, where to from here?

reply to post by Josephus23


Says right in what you quoted that converts are included.


it does not specify race, or biological determination.


the end.

reply to post by TrueTruth


You just proved my point. Israelis practice a religion but MASQUERADE as a group of people .

Thanks for reinforcing my statement.

reply to post by Kokatsi


Star for that one.

Extremely well thought and succinct.

I must interject my feelings on something here.

And it is the Holocaust.

First... I wasn't there. So, the only thing that I can do is relay anecdotes, and interpretations of stories that I have heard.

A holocaust is a horrible thing who's wrath hath decimated SEVERAL different ethnic groups, the most current being Islamic Arabs.

We must understand that most of the citizens in Israel never lived in a concentration camp. In fact, when Rothschild paid for free passage to Israel for all of the Jews worldwide they came from exactly, WORLD-WIDE (with a good bit from Russia).
Hitler was trying to ships Jews out of the country late into the war. TO THE MIDDLE EAST.

The state of Israel is a product of the empire of england or the square mile, which was essentially taken by Rothschild just after the battle of Waterloo.

I am all for a homeland for any group who cares (the true Torah Jews could stand to wash their little cotton underthing every once in a while)

I understand what you mean about knowing good Jews (because the bad ones are not even Jews, they impersonate Jews), but the holocaust has become like beating a dead horse.

I would bet that 99% of the people who live in Israel never experienced a holocaust.

It is all about propaganda man.

The core group bankers, financiers, and industrialists are attempting to create a hegemony on life itself.

And guess who is leading the pack.

The U$A and I$rael.

They are inherently evil man. I know that this is hard to take, but "the holocaust" is a weapon in the information war used as a demeaning defense tactic by a group of malevolent people who stole Judaism from true Jews.

Funny thing, if every human in Israel, Egypt, Jordan and Syria were vaporized in the next half hour, if not for the news media, 99% of Americans wouldn't know it.

And if it happened and they didn't find out, it would affect them not at all.

reply to post by Josephus23


how is a religion not a group of people?

seems to me you're the one making this claim.

i sense..... dishonesty....hyperbole.....


you know. that stuff.

besides - anyone got a point?

nah. y'all never do.

reply to post by Josephus23


oh boy.

another pointless post about the jews running the world and the over use of the holocaust - never mind there are still survivors today.

ya. those babies need to stop whining about those 6 million slaughtered. wht a bunch of wimps.

pray tell - how is the holocaust being abused, precisely?

and again - what on earth is your point?

can you name and detail this nefarios network of jews?


aw forget it. it's faster and more enlightening if i just beat my head against this desk.

i wish all you knuckleheads would quit scapegoating and just take responsibility for your lot in life.

talk about beating a dead horse.... you've mashed this topic that isn't a topic to a pulp.

what nonsense.

Originally posted by kozmo
Well folks, here it is - Proof the Jews are NOT Semites!

So, now that we can conclusively determine that the Sephardic Jews are Spanish and the Ashkenazim Jews are Central/Eastern European, I am wondering exactly when the Jews are going to return Israel to the Palestinians, the TRUE Semites. Also, will these posers now stop with the "Anti-Semite" crap, please!?!?

Just think of the implications of this. A group of people have laid claim to a land that they have absolutely no connection to whatsoever. And the majority of the world was complicit in displacing the rightful settlers of this land, the Palestinians who have lived there for millenia, in order for a people whose ancestors had NEVER set foot upon the land to live there. Kind of makes you wonder...

HEY duuuuudeeee, since you're so scientific, talking about DNA and stuff, try this experiment, go on, git r done!!!!!

No, really... it's a very simple experiment.

Just find someone to take few "jewish" DNA samples and few "palestinian" DNA samples.

Now try, with all your extraordinary DNA knowledge, to determine who is OR isn't Jew OR Palestinian.

Guess what?
EPIC FAIL awaits you.
And this is a scientific fact, proven many times before.




[edit on 8-3-2010 by ProjectSoporific-Tr-01]

reply to post by Tiger5


For you to say that "judaism is transferred via the female bloodline "is ludicrous. Judaism is a RELIGOUS designation. By your reasoning,is Catholicism also transferable thru a "bloodline" ? Buddhism? Baptist,Methodist,Lutheran? This jewish=semite=jewish thing is the most powerful HOAX that has ever been perpetuated upon mankind.This "anti-semite" is nothing more than a catchphrase to smear one's opposition.GOD'S CHOSEN PEOPLE ? What a wonderful god he must be,showing favoritism to some children while shunning the rest ? The world would be a much safer place if people would wake up and smell the roses. TRUTH is a powerful force and it will prevail,in the end. There will always be those who deny that the world is round and not flat. I have spent a lifetime educating myself and it really perplexes me when the "know-nots" ask me to substantiate my claims in a condensed format,so please don't ask me to educate you to the vast array of truths that you have missed. Religion is as old as man himself. Mankind HAS to believe in something other than himself,otherwise fear of the unknown would drive him mad . This "I am one of god's chosen" is nothing more than an undeserved "key to the city"as it were. But,I must admit,it is undoubtedly the most clever scheme ever concocted in the history of mankind. Now,for those of you who can't wait to "BRAND"me as an "anti-semite"...READ THIS FIRST: I am of the DAVIDIC lineage. Hopefully,I won't have to explain that too? That does not entitle me to more cookies than any of you, in my opinion. That does not grant me the automatic right to set at the front of the bus while I insist that you set at the back.You are every bit as worthy as I am.,no more,no less. So,with that in mind,I find the term very offensive and it is not a flag that I would even wave,but here are those of you that fly it with impunity...I personaly can't think of anything that I abhor more than sheer IGNORANCE.

Originally posted by kozmo
Well folks, here it is - Proof the Jews are NOT Semites!

Just think of the implications of this. A group of people have laid claim to a land that they have absolutely no connection to whatsoever. And the majority of the world was complicit in displacing the rightful settlers of this land, the Palestinians who have lived there for millenia, in order for a people whose ancestors had NEVER set foot upon the land to live there. Kind of makes you wonder...

Who says the land belongs exclusively to Semites? If this is the case you so proudly spit out, then I guess we better give back the entire United States to the original American Indian owners. You have no case. Go out and get a life.

reply to post by TrueTruth


TrueTruth.

I would normally ignore a response like this, but you have engaged in so many classic faulty defense mechanisms, all of which are based on the logical fallacies that one encounters when criticizing the state of Israel.

Please don't take this personally. I want people to see how tricky it can be to debate this with someone who constantly appeals to our most base level, irrational impulses that are all related to survival. I am only going to deconstruct your first sentence. I am not out to embarrass you dude.
BTW...

This idea of manipulating the masses through the control of their irrational impulses forms the foundation for public relations and modern marketing.

Ready? Let's.

another pointless post about the jews running the world and the over use of the holocaust - never mind there are still survivors today.

****another pointless post about the jews running the world and the over use of the holocaust****

This comment contains quite a bit of logical fallacies, so I will have to take them one by one, but I will only discuss 3 although I see 5.

The first is the classic straw man argument. I never said that Jews ran the world. Those are your words and not mine, and...
When you referred to "THE holocaust" you obviously didn't pay close enough attention to my comment.
A holocaust is the systematic destruction of people similar to genocide. "THE holocaust" is reinforced in the media and applied only to Jews.
The word holocaust is not the sole possession of practicing Jews.
This could be seen as the fallacy of equivocation. Something either means one thing or the other. The definition cannot change to fit your needs.

****never mind there are still survivors today.****

And if you were to read my comment, then you would see that I guesstimate that only about 1% of the current Jewish population in Germany, but probably worldwide for that matter, were in a concentration camp.

**A link to the actual number of current survivors would be a kind act, and I would be very grateful for the information**

BTW... The previous fallacy was a non-sequitur, among 2 others (appeal to emotion and appeal to widespread belief), just in case you're counting.

Would you like me to do the same thing with the rest of your comment or is this okay?






[edit on 3/8/2010 by Josephus23]

[edit on 3/8/2010 by Josephus23]

reply to post by Josephus23


o gee. hack logician to go with all the hack engineers and physicists lurking around these boards.

you just don't have a point. you're saying that jews are a religion, not a people - as if those are mutually exclusive. as if Christians, aren't a people. you're using the word 'a people' as a sleight of hand - even though as i said earlier, the statement by israelis about who was invited to return, race or bloodlines and all that crap was not the deciding line - they clearly and explicitly included converts.


hence, you are using the word 'people' to insinuate a racially exclusive definition that they themselves never used - if you're into fallacies, that would be one i like to call 'lying'. or, if you prefer 'not knowing what the hell you're talking about'.

which fallacy is your claim about the media and their use of the holocaust, and about how they make it about only jews? is it the infamous 'talking our of your arse' fallacy?

i don't give a crap what you think. you're just one of a million mindless, pointless, contrarian dillweeds roaming around these boards trying to out snark the next dillweed.

oh - i'm sorry - did you not like my use of an ad hom. fallacy?

ever thought that, if you are a dillweed, and i say you're a dillweed, that's not a fallacy, but a simple observation expressed?

you're not that clever, son. i've seen better, and i am better.

this whole thread has not point at all, and neither do you. just sleight of hand dishonesty and misrepresentation and selective blame casting to no end at all.



just plain fekking stupid.


[edit on 9-3-2010 by TrueTruth]

[edit on 9-3-2010 by TrueTruth]