DNA PROOF Jews NOT Semites!!!

reply to post by SeenMyShare
On that line of thought.....

For Creationists:

Aren't we all just Adam(and Eve!)-ites?

For Evolutionists:


Aren't we all just Lucy-ites?

For Rodney King fans:

Can't we all just get along?

Originally posted by Yissachar1
reply to post by warpcrafter

 

Just exposing lies that get touted on this site.. Im not afraid... It would be fun to shut a few people up..

Just wondering can you or anyone else for that matter prove him wrong?

Peace.

I know somebody already said it, but why are we stirring the pot. Every culture has brutality that has infected its roots. EVERY culture. The wise among us move past, forgive, and try to achieve a higher level peaceful coexistence, recognizing and reconciling both the individual and the collective. In my view, we need to quit chasing rabbits and realize that we are the rabbit. And it is a malleable and evolving essence. I am what I am.

I claim planet earth for all of humanity. We all descended from a common ancestor. So any land claim based on birthright is ridiculous.

en.wikipedia.org...


All your base belong to us!

[edit on 4-3-2010 by davec0021]

Originally posted by Yissachar1
If any of you wish to test mine an my families DNA to disprove my Semite ancestry then go ahead.... I dare you...

Uh oh - you just made a lot of enemies. Now there will be threads exposing how you're part of The Conspiracy.



At least this particular thread is honest about its anti-Semitism...people aren't even bothering to use the code word "Zionist."

Originally posted by orwellianunenlightenment
I know somebody already said it, but why are we stirring the pot. Every culture has brutality that has infected its roots. EVERY culture. The wise among us move past, forgive, and try to achieve a higher level peaceful coexistence, recognizing and reconciling both the individual and the collective. In my view, we need to quit chasing rabbits and realize that we are the rabbit. And it is a malleable and evolving essence. I am what I am.

STONE HIM!!!

Originally posted by cjcord
are you saying here that there is a reason the Israelis should change their viewpoints on their valid claims to the land? In what way would this make sense?

Perhaps the Palestinians should change THEIR minds, considering they are the aggressors in the conflict!

I knew getting involved in this discussion was a mistake.

If I point out the fact that according to Jewish history and tradition they belong in Israel then I will sound hateful to those disagree. If I instead agree that they do not then I sound hateful to the Jews.

This is a conflict that is not going to be solved on an Internet forum. All I know is that according to Jewish history God promised the land to to the patriarch Abraham, the Jewish people settled and developed the land, the international community granted political sovereignty in Palestine to the Jewish people, and the territory was captured in defensive wars.

So... who belongs there? Right now the Palestinians because, if I am not mistaken, the land was won in war. It is a legally established Palestinian country. This does not mean things will always be this way. The Jews could very well gain back the land.

Of course nothing I say is going to be perceived as correct because the subject is so sensitive on both sides of the argument. I think I'm going to simply make this my last post in this thread. Everything I say will be wrong; I know it.

Originally posted by aletheia

Originally posted by cjcord
are you saying here that there is a reason the Israelis should change their viewpoints on their valid claims to the land? In what way would this make sense?

Perhaps the Palestinians should change THEIR minds, considering they are the aggressors in the conflict!

I knew getting involved in this discussion was a mistake.

If I point out the fact that according to Jewish history and tradition they belong in Israel then I will sound hateful to those disagree. If I instead agree that they do not then I sound hateful to the Jews.

This is a conflict that is not going to be solved on an Internet forum. All I know is that according to Jewish history God promised the land to to the patriarch Abraham, the Jewish people settled and developed the land, the international community granted political sovereignty in Palestine to the Jewish people, and the territory was captured in defensive wars.

So... who belongs there? Right now the Palestinians because, if I am not mistaken, the land was won in war. It is a legally established Palestinian country. This does not mean things will always be this way. The Jews could very well gain back the land.

Of course nothing I say is going to be perceived as correct because the subject is so sensitive on both sides of the argument. I think I'm going to simply make this my last post in this thread. Everything I say will be wrong; I know it.

You are mistaken.
Go educate yourself on teh lead up to and the decalration of the independent state of Israel.

Gaza, the west bank and the sinai were captured during the 6 day war in which the arab nations surrounding Israel attacked it...and lost.

Sinai was returned in negotiations with egypt. Gaza is a refugee center for egyptians, syrians, jordanians, etc etc.

west bank is still being decided upon.

The greater portion of land that makes up Israel was purchased, by jewish people for teh sole purpose of basically buying their country. Following teh end of WW2, David Ben Gurion and others declared the independent state of Israel.

they didn't steal or take anything. And besides, why be hypocritical about any of it. I don't think Americans in particular have any place in a discussion about occupied lands and theft of resources from war.

the Israelis have a much cleaner slate when it comes to that.

Ugh! The chosen people are the Hebrews. Moses was Hebrew. The promised land was promised to the Hebrews. The 12 tribes were Hebrews, not "Jews" - they practiced what is now known as Judaism as their religion.

Being Jewish refers to those that practice Judaism - a RELIGION, not a race. The waters have become so muddied (I suspect it is purposeful) that one cannot even discuss the issues anymore. Consensus on the terms must be prerequisite.

One need not be a "Semite" or Hebrew to practice Judaism or be a "Jewish" - just as many Semitic people practice Islam, Christianity or Buddhism.

So with that in mind, what exactly is your point? That many people that practice a religion are not of Semitic origin? Well, Duh!

reply to post by Smack


So Did you read the article in the OP??? It actually is quite clear. Did you read the summaries thatI and other people have put up? Th ebiological markers say otherwise. THis does not justify whatever is happening in Palestine

Originally posted by Shalzie
reply to post by Auntie Matter

 

If you have really and truly read everything here with understanding, it would become clear that this situation cannot be resolved peacefully.........

.......It is literally life and death. Please do believe that i say this to you in a gentle spirit because youve asked (I'm paraphrasing) why does everyone have to fight about this? Can't we all just get along? In this case unfortunately the answer is no. As you study more eventually things will begin to clear up for you and you too will stand with one side or the other. Don't feel like you aren't smart if it takes you awhile. Many of these particular arguments have been going on for thousands literally thousands of years. Does this help at all?

First thank you @ Letthereaderunderstand, I thank you very much for the welcome. Sage advice. I will heed it and keep a tight rein on emotion: to think before typing, as it were!

@ Shalzie, I thank you for your response to me as well. It does help. Something you said struck me and that is this: “When one's own head is on the block one suddenly becomes extremely forceful in their "opinion".” I realised something that hadn’t occurred to me before, it’s easy for me to sit in the ‘cheap seats’ from the other side of the world and wonder why people can’t just get along. I have had the good fortune of never being close to a war, and for this I am truly grateful. No one is above emotional outbursts when confronted about something they believe in passionately. Before now I’ve never considered myself a lukewarm individual where my opinions or feelings are concerned. It made me realize there will come a day where after serious reflection and consideration, I will stand up behind my formed beliefs and although, I‘m sad to say it, I will forced to pick a side about this. Simple as that. Call me naïve, but I still wish it didn’t have to be like that. A bitter dispute handed down over the ages is not going to be fixed with the mere musings of one individual hoping for peace and resolution while looking on from the fence. I feel ill-equipped. I will form my own cogent argument, and until I have done that I will continue to absorb the facts as I see them before I can contribute to threads like these.

There are some interesting links in here which I haven’t had the time to thoroughly read, but it’s a good start for me. If I’ve learned anything here, opposing opinions are the hardest to listen to and beliefs are the hardest to change.

by this standard, there are at least a dozens of them rebuilt in my city alone! Several churches, all the sandstone schools, the old court house......

Gosh, who knew?

Originally posted by letthereaderunderstand

Originally posted by Shalzie
reply to post by godless

 

Next, I'm not sure what "christian cults" you are referring to but just a note - the "Christian" bible does not teach that the temple has to be rebuilt for the "end times to roll" What it does teach is something that I'm sure will be FAR FAR more offensive to you that is that "Christians" being "grafted in" to the promise of God by the crucifixion of The Man called Jesus will result in a mass collection of GENTILES unto the Father in Heaven WHILE THE END TIMES ROLL haha if youre going to be offended you should at least know what Christianity actually teaches. Then to the point of the new improved Jew "whiter than white" i ask sincerely were all those stories I heard about jews returning to the homeland from ethiopia, china places like that... were those lies? If so then there arent any jews in Israel at all and all of the palestinians are being "OPRESSED" by no one. Sorry but you just can't help someone who is being oppressed by no one.

The temple is rebuilt already.
Old Temple
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/d0b79e1b08b2.jpg[/atsimg]
New Temple
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/bbe8053169e7.jpg[/atsimg]

Federal means Faithful as you know. The bull is on Wall street and it just got sacrificed, so now we just wait for the burning.

Peace

reply to post by SeenMyShare


Ok, let us take our argument from there. Let us start with the fact that the old and new testaments have, if I'm not mistaken, 24 different listings of the "12 tribes of Israel." Some tribes assimilated, that is shown in the bible, but there are listings were certain tribes were ommited, others were added, and no reason (biblically, scholarly, etc) has shown why.

Originally posted by EMPIRE
Some tribes assimilated, that is shown in the bible, but there are listings were certain tribes were ommited, others were added, and no reason (biblically, scholarly, etc) has shown why.

I would bet that it was politics that decided which tribes were included in the 'Whos who'.

Just like the 'accepted' books of the Bible and the Apochrypha.

The thesis of this original post, and the article it references is mistaken in a number of ways.

First, you do not have to be Semitic to be Jewish. Being Jewish is a matter of religious practice and personal identity, not a matter of race or genetic heritage.

Second, DNA testing of both Ashkenazi and Sephardic present day populations DO show the presence of DNA haplotypes common to ancient and present day middle eastern populations, so the quoted article is simply wrong. See the book "Abraham's Children" the Amazon link is;

www.amazon.com...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1267727978&sr=8-1

Third, I am so sick and tired of hearing this C@#$%^ over and over again, its just an attempt to de-legitimize claims by present day Jews to a homeland in the middle east. This is the kind of C$%^&* Jeff Rense pollutes the airwaves with endlessly.

The question of whether race, DNA, history can establish a claim to physical territory is impossible to settle in a forum like this, but for for the modern state of Israel, the question has been settled by International law and the actual in fact establishment of the modern state of Israel.

But I want to contribute something further to the discussion.

In fact Abram, the father of those who became Hebrews, was not a Semite. If you read John Sassoon's book; "From Sumer to Jerusalem: The Forbidden Hypothesis" - again the Amazon link;

www.amazon.com...=sr_1_fkmr0_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1267728526&sr=1-1-fkmr0

you will learn that the founders of the high civilization of Sumer were not Semites, and that Abram was in all likelihood not a Semite.

The founders of Sumer were from the east, and excavations of this population showed they were in part Caucasian and in part Australoid, a mixture of those ethnicities. Its possible they were refugees from the earlier Harapian civilization of the west coast of India, prior to its demise with the rise in sea level at the end of the last Ice age, very approximately 10,000 years ago.

While, the fertile crescent and the off spring civilizations of Assyria and Babylonia were predominantly Semitic, the Semitic people came to the area later and from the Arabian peninsula, as it became a desert.

As other people have written in this thread, when Jews were dispersed to Europe, their exact genetic makeup changed again, but the book I referred you to demonstrates scientifically that the modern populations do have haplotypes in common with Semitic people of the middle east and with ancient (circa 3000 years ago) middle eastern populations.

Therefore being Semitic in no way is a pre-requisite for "being Jewish" or for laying a claim to citizenship in the modern or ancient state of Israel, Judea, etc.





[edit on 4-3-2010 by leschwartz]

reply to post by leschwartz


There are several things in your post that are up for debate, so I'm going to pick one and focus on that. When you make the claim of Sumerians founding Sumer, do you imply they were the first ones in the area? If so, why does historical and archaelogical evidence place the Ubaidians in the area before Sumerians?

www.fsmitha.com...

reply to post by butcherguy


Which means that it's all up to debate and anyone claiming they are part of a 12 tribe, or that their people are a "chosen" group hasn't even started at square one. Again, if the list has been changed over time, and we have a history of books, scriptures and texts being ommited or changed for whatever reason, it is virtually impossible to solve the problem or attempt to make claims/justifications by using those books.

I did not say the founders of the high civilization of Sumer were the first in the area.

I do not know anyone to make that claim, the area was sparsely populated prior to the development of Sumer.

And you may be looking for a far ranging debate, but your question is really off the topic as far as I am concerned.

The topic is "DNA PROOF Jews are NOT Semites!!!".




[edit on 4-3-2010 by leschwartz]

reply to post by EMPIRE




Absolutely!

reply to post by leschwartz


You say, “In fact Abram, the father of those who became Hebrews, was not a Semite.” Yet if you look at the biblical text, which all of this madness is based on, you’ll see that he is a Semite in the sense that he is descended from Shem. This is where your post starts to fall apart, because you’re making the claim that “founders of the high civilization of Sumer were not Semites, and that Abram was in all likelihood not a Semite.” Keyword: Founders. Who were those founders? Well according to you “The founders of Sumer were from the east, and excavations of this population showed they were in part Caucasian and in part Australoid, a mixture of those ethnicities. Its possible they were refugees from the earlier Harapian civilization of the west coast of India...” The problem is, the Ubaidians were not from the west coast of India but from the eastern parts of Arabia, so are you implying the founders are the Ubaidians, and that the “east” you refer to is the eastern parts of Arabia? If not, can you provide me with any evidence they were refugees from the west coast of India? Finally, when you say "Semite" are you refering to philology?

Now let us look at what you just said:

I did not say the founders of the high civilization of Sumer were the first in the area.

When it is stated that someone or a group of people “found” something it is sometimes interpreted as they moved there and built a civilization that, previously, had no civilization at all. I’m specifically talking about the region and those who were there before the Sumerians. I’m not talking about “Sumerians” and people who built the “civilization of Sumer” (even though the people before the Sumerians already had a civilization complete with pottery, homes, etc.)

I do not know anyone to make that claim, the area was sparsely populated prior to the development of Sumer.

And you may be looking for a far ranging debate, but your question is really off the topic as far as I am concerned.

No, the question is highly relevant to the topic as we’re talking about "DNA PROOF Jews are NOT Semites!!!”, yet you’re making the claim that the patriarch of the Jews, Abraham, was not a Semite. If you’re going to make that claim, and link us to books that put forth a hypothesis that he was not a Semite, it only makes sense that we look at things objectively and look at all those who inhabited the region before those in question.


[edit on 4-3-2010 by EMPIRE]

[edit on 4-3-2010 by EMPIRE]