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Somebody please help?

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posted on Jun, 2 2004 @ 05:48 AM
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Leveller

I am not sure that you mean to say that FreeMason the ATS member posts anti-Masonic posts or disinformation about Freemasonry. That is not his style, and I would defend him on this issue.

His view of the American political system and its future may be different to mine, but he didn't take up his original name to cast aspersions on Freemasonry in general or any night's work in particular, in my experience.




posted on Jun, 2 2004 @ 05:52 AM
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Sorry MA. He's been caught red-handed.
He might not have posted anti-masonic words under the name of Freemason, but he has done plenty using other accounts here on ATS.

The guy is a total and utter fraud.



posted on Jun, 2 2004 @ 05:56 AM
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OK, I bow to your more intimate knowledge of what has happened.

My analysis of FreeMason's various past personas at ATS (Hammerite, 5POF, TheWanderer, RobbieBurns etc etc etc etc etc etc) would never have had me looking at this "Hope4Me" as another alter ego, at all. I am sorry to doubt you but it doesn't appear as the language of the same person; there may be more to it than meets the eye.

* Edit *

* Thanks for the consolidating info. But that would mean that FreeMason is pretending to be the reluctant wife of a Freemason, and an anti-Mason not a Freemason. And... he would have to be a cross dresser! And... and... oh no!!!!! Noooooooooo!!!!!

*

[Edited on 2-6-2004 by MaskedAvatar]



posted on Jun, 2 2004 @ 07:51 AM
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Leveler
For anyone who still thinks that Hope4Me is genuine, I would ask you to read her first post where she states that she is just learning about freemasonry. A couple of posts later we have "her" quoting Mackay and Gnostisism like a pro. This is a typical MrNecros/Freemason troll tactic.


Yes this is a common style of attack. But the point of principle remains the same. I think we all have seen the troll tactics. Typical "Freemasonry watch" stuff.

However if you treat the post in a denigrating way, they have achieved the objective. to make you look bad. The trap is sprung.

Hidden agendas usually find there way to the top eventually.



posted on Jun, 2 2004 @ 10:50 AM
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Well, I am telling you that this is exactly the same story that "she" posted as Patsyjeff at FW... it is all well and fine to treat the post as if it were a real issue, but it is also smart to know when your leg is being pulled.

The issues that "she" presents are false issues. Look at how she twists the obligation... as Bill noted, saying you won't ride your neighbors bike does not mean you can ride any other bicycle...

And you remove all minerals and metals only for the degrees as a candidate, not in lodge after the degrees. The objections, then, seem more that you cannot control him, as he seeks to improve himself.

This post is what bothers me most about the folks opposed to masonry. They are sneaky and underhanded... if they sincerely objected to masonry and had a real reason, they would come out and say it, but they don't, so they resort to subterfuge and defamation.

We respond with reasoned facts, and they respond with more lies. There are two of these O.F.F.ensive "gentlemen", who KNOW better, but continue to post lies and frauds against masons around the internet. It is a sad and pathetic thing to watch, and this poster is just another in the small and (thank god) shrinking cadre of masonic attackers.



posted on Jun, 2 2004 @ 11:05 AM
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Thou shall not covet thy neighbors wife.

But all the rest that live more then a few houses from you are fair game? Ya think thats what the commandments meant?



posted on Jun, 2 2004 @ 11:54 AM
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No. She/he/it knows damn well that this specific oath was written in ancient times and for a different purpose.

As freemasonry accepts men of all faiths, it would have also accepted those with polygamous beliefs - and it still does. Remember, Freemasonry is open to those who may have a different moral belief concerning sex/marriage/relationships from the majority.

I personally know of a freemason who has recently married another freemason's daughter. The oath was merely created to avoid disharmony within the Lodge.

As for the taking off of the wedding ring? A freemason does not specifically take off his ring. It's not singled out. There is no mention of removing a wedding ring anywhere in masonic ritual. Again, the accuser knows full well why the argument is a sham. The motives for removal of metal are entirely pure and to argue with those motives makes she/he/it look like nothing more than a lowlife loser in my personal opinion.

Married to a freemason my butt. Hope4Me is nothing but a devious manipulator. Sure she/he/it can say that I'm not being very masonic - but I am being very human when I state that I don't like liars.

[Edited on 2-6-2004 by Leveller]



posted on Jun, 2 2004 @ 01:51 PM
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Once again, why is it so hard to believe that I am not either that Patty person or now this new guy I'm accused of being? For one thing, it would be pretty easy to prove. The moderators who have access to my personal information can easily verify that I have only one account here. While I would dearly love to spit out my real name here just to prove you to be a liar, I am not willing to do that but I am open to suggestions on how I can actually prove that I'm not this anti mason person you think I am. I will say this, I am a mother of three wonderful kids, am part owner of a construction company, an auxiliary police officer with a rank and 10 years under my belt on the same department as my husband is full time, raise german shepherds and train in protection, and enjoy my life with my husband and children and I believe in being a good honest person. As for quoting like a pro, I'll take that as a compliment but it's not quotes. It doesn't take too much effort to find things on the internet. These are things that I have found on the internet that I questioned and saved to use to ask about. I've also got another saved that I thought was totally ridiculous about how the Masonic symbols are based on private body parts. These are things that I am trying to figure out and understand. I'm not saying I agree with them. I am saying that I am trying to figure out just what I can really believe. As for me trying to take control of my marriage. That simply isn't true. My husband and I are not like that. I'd say we are one of the few lucky couples in this world that have a genuine, abiding love for each other. It is because of my love for him that I am trying to find the answers that will prove my fears to be ridiculous. I have always stood beside my husband no matter that I thought he was right or wrong because he is the head of our home. This is the first time that I have ever found myself to be on the other side of the fence about. Honestly, the more that I am learning here from the posts, aside from those few Masons who obviously don't take their Masonic duties serious about being a person of good morals and good character, the less these feelings seem to bother me. Fear of the unknown maybe? Please, continue convincing me. I desperately want to understand enough to know what is the truth and what isn't.

I don't know what else to do to show that I am very sincere.



posted on Jun, 2 2004 @ 02:00 PM
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Originally posted by Leveller

As freemasonry accepts men of all faiths, it would have also accepted those with polygamous beliefs - and it still does. Remember, Freemasonry is open to those who may have a different moral belief concerning sex/marriage/relationships from the majority.


I have to disagree with the above statement, at least to a degree. Polygamy has never been acceptable in Freemasonry. For example, Joseph Smith, along with several hundred other Mormons, were initiated, passed, and raised in a week long marathon in Illinois. All of them had multiple wives, and all were immediately expelled when this irregularity came to light.


I personally know of a freemason who has recently married another freemason's daughter.


There are many such cases. But of course, conjugal relations within marriage do not constitute a violation of the wife’s chastity. In the York Constitutions of Masonry, which were in effect since at least the 14th century and possibly earlier, there is found the following charge:

“7. No Mason shall debauch, or have carnal knowledge of the wife, daughter, or concubine of his Master or Fellows.”

The Charges of the 1685 Constitutions of the Masons’ Company of London, our Fraternity’s most immediate ancestor, reads in part:

“5. Ye shall not take your Fellow’s wife in villainy, nor deflower his daughter or servant, nor put him to disworship.”

These statements apparently refer to the illicit seduction of the female relatives of a Mason, which was forbidden by the Charges (and since the latter charges were approved by James II, it was also a criminal act). But no Mason is bound by obligation not to marry the relative of a Mason, as marriage union is holy, far from the licentiousness that the Charges are directed against.

Fiat Lvx.



posted on Jun, 2 2004 @ 02:17 PM
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I am saying that I am trying to figure out just what I can really believe......My husband and I are not like that. I'd say we are one of the few lucky couples in this world that have a genuine, abiding love for each other.
Is that why your here finding out about his orginization? Instead of believing in him, and believing him? If thats abiding love, I guess I'm glad I don't have it.


aside from those few Masons who obviously don't take their Masonic duties serious about being a person of good morals and good character
And what Masons would that be? The ones that think your someone that has repeatedly attacked them? Take a step back, look at the situation. This women comes to a generic secret societies webforum, posts a post that even to us non masons seems rediculious. You don't see why people would question 1. why would you come here to fix your marrage, 2. the validity of your claims, since we've seen multi people do this before. 3. you say repeatedly that you don't dislike masons, but almost evey post is riddled with negitive outlooks on them.


I don't know what else to do to show that I am very sincere.
Well you say your a parent, so I use kids as an example, since I have 2 of my own. If you want to find out why you child thinks, or acts a certain way, you wouldn't come out and attack, or go on the offensive would you? No, I hope not, cause all you will get is a wall of defence. How about we ask what they think or feel, and if you do have a situation (alla the ritual verses you don't like) bring that situation up, and ask what it means. Not, you did this one time and it was wrong and I hate it, attack attack attack, but please explain it to me, without getting upset or offended, oh and please don't feel attacked.



posted on Jun, 2 2004 @ 02:19 PM
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Patsyjeff or help4me or whoever you really are...

I am not saying that we shouldn't address the issues you raise. Regardless of the source, a reply is necessary, if for no OTHER reason than the simply possibility that someone may misunderstand what you have written that does not know better.

So far, I think you raised two issues, which we have dealt with for you... first is the accusation that the obligation not to violate the chastity of a master masons wife, daughter, mother, sister or widow is not a command to do thus to any OTHER woman, and the second that the removal of a ring or any other metal object during intiation (ONLY) has a symbolic meaning which has nothing to do with marriage vows.

Further on that note, I have a brother Mason that is an electrician, who removes his jewelry while at work, lest he lose a finger. That does not reflect on his marriage vows. In a likewise manner, we recently initiated a man who did not want to remove his wedding band, so we simply placed tape over the ring and "ignored" the fact that it was still wearing it.

Maonry is about symbols... and practicalities.

If what you are saying it true, and I still have my doubts, what further can we do to answer your challenges?



posted on Jun, 2 2004 @ 02:33 PM
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I also want to bring up a point from your first post, that Masonic Light asked about, and never got a reply. Which I understand where he is going with it.

You stated that you found a "masonry" website that explained the rituals for the first 3 degrees. Masonic Light asked for that link, why? Because he knows what the rituals really are, and he would like to check the validity of that site. Because you might have a horribly wrong impression from that site, that might have just been claiming to be a masonry site, and might/probably is just fueling it's anti-mason agenda.

And secondly, you reading about the rituals of the degrees with no knowledge or teachings of what they are for, and what they mean, would, understandably, misunderstand quite a bit about them. As would I, or anyone else that hasn't been taught about them. I would also venture a guess, that the lodges address and teach new members quite a bit, before the rituals so that the new members understand what will be going on.

And lastly, to your sincerity of your post, it looks bad when people ask for a link to something you quoted, and you don't provide it. Now I'm not saying you did it on purpose, but you must understand how it looks on a site that gets a LOT of mis- information.



posted on Jun, 2 2004 @ 03:04 PM
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Originally posted by Masonic Light

I have to disagree with the above statement, at least to a degree. Polygamy has never been acceptable in Freemasonry. ]



I thought maybe that it would have been deemed acceptable in countries outside of the USA/UK (specifically Muslim countries) and that was therefore why it was there. I also thought it might refer back to the times of serfdom.
If not, I stand corrected and bow to your wisdom.



But now onto our troll:


Originally posted by hope4me
Once again, why is it so hard to believe that I am not either that Patty person or now this new guy I'm accused of being?



You quite simply don't want to be convinced. Giving the "poor little girl" line is a total and utter waste of time.

You showed your true colours with your tirade over the wedding ring. You know full well why it is taken off, yet used it to back your argument. Maybe you didn't think you would get picked up on this, but as a troll you should have known better. I have to mark you down for laziness there.

You see, I have many major problems with you and the way in which you post. You've obviously studied freemasonry far more than you state and you obviously have taken the things that you believe to look good in an anti-masonic argument, twisted them and discarded the truth.
Let's not even go with the "Somebody Please Help" original post. Expressing ignorance at the beginning and then suddenly pulling quotes and stating details a couple of posts later is not the work of someone who has just stumbled across a site looking for help. For somebody who is supposedly married to a freemason, you seem to know and concentrate more about the lies than the truth.



posted on Jun, 2 2004 @ 11:10 PM
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Darktalon, my apologies for not posting the link to the website. I believe it to be www.opposing-religious-views.com. I cannot go and veryify if that is the correct one or not. I do remember that it opened up as a PDF file. If that isn't the link then I know I found it by searching for masonic degree rituals. The whole thing showed up the parts each person played and what each one said.

You know, most all of you are right. I did come in with an attitude, especially about the wedding ring and the oath. I never really thought of it the way you all answered. My apologies for that. I didn't realize it until after I read your responses and went back and looked at what I wrote. I was hostile in what I wrote.

As for my comments about people being of good moral character,my apologies for griping about it when I was coming off sounding like a seedy nut.

Again, I choose not to discuss all of this with my husband. I still feel that he has the right to choose to make himself a better person (notice I didn't say worship here) and I do not have the right to interfere or influence that decision.

Finally, for those that still say I'm this whoever on all these different websites. My first name is Lori, and I live in Illinois. I don't appreciate being called a liar and portrayed as someone I'm not. I can understand your suspicions to a certain degree and I'm sure you get tired of answering questions over and over again but I feel that I have made every attempt to portray myself honestly and I have been met with derision from you Leveller. Should I say that you are an Anti-Mason portraying yourself as a Mason so that you can make hateful comments and show the Mason's in a bad light? That is certainly what you are doing to me.

To those that helped with answering my questions, I do sincerely appreciate your kindness and tolerance towards me. While I wish I could proclaim that I have "seen the light" and no longer fear this. I can't. But, I can say that some of the things that bothered me no longer do. I can see now that a lot of my fears were based on the things that I read and was influenced by. I will try to be a lot more open minded and hopefully will be able to someday be comfortable with my husband being a Mason and even attend some events with him. They had a pancake breakfast this past Saturday for charity.



posted on Jun, 2 2004 @ 11:27 PM
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Originally posted by AlexKennedy
OK, I know I shouldn't do this, but...

DTOM, just to let you know, there's a Big Masonic Secret that the Eastern Star has been hiding for years.

Want to hear it?

OK, it's like this:

Everybody's related to a Mason, somehow.

Remember, the Mason to whom you're related doesn't actually have to be alive.

So, if at any point in the history of Humankind, someone to whom you are related received even their first degree, you can join the Star.


Is that true? I had no idea. My greatgrandfather was a very high degree Mason (can't remember wich) but his picture is on the wall in the lodge in Indiannapolis (so I'm told by my mother) and my greatgrandmother was an Eastern Star. I have been so curious about this for so many years and had no idea that there might be an opportunity for me to join.



posted on Jun, 3 2004 @ 12:01 AM
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Originally posted by badkitty
Is that true? I had no idea. My greatgrandfather was a very high degree Mason (can't remember wich) but his picture is on the wall in the lodge in Indiannapolis (so I'm told by my mother) and my greatgrandmother was an Eastern Star. I have been so curious about this for so many years and had no idea that there might be an opportunity for me to join.


Yes, you may join the eastern star as it looks to go back to great grandkids also........ Here are the requirements below:

If you would like more information,look here.
www.easternstar.org...

Who may join: Only men who are Masons are eligible and only women with specific Masonic affiliation may be members. These affiliations include:

Affiliated Master Masons in good standing,
the wives
daughters
legally adopted daughters
mothers
widows
sisters
half sisters
granddaughters
stepmothers

stepdaughters
stepsisters
daughters-in-law
grandmothers
great granddaughters
nieces
great nieces
mothers-in-law
sisters-in-law



posted on Jun, 3 2004 @ 12:36 AM
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Well, Hope4Me, if you're willing to admit that there's nothing sinister about Masonry (or at least that there's no rational proof out there that there is anything sinister; I know this is because we are a good organisation, but you may not know that), and if you're not going to come back on here and start posting about how we're not compatible with Christianity, and how we're all actually secretly controlled by a bunch of "high-level" Mason Satanists, or how we all actually worship the phallus but don't know it, or how we're responsible for child abductions and are actually lizards, etc., etc., etc.; if you're willing to give that up, then I will bury the hatchet with you, and we can be friends.


As for Leveller, don't be upset with him. He has very good reason to be wary of and testy with people who appears to be anti-Masons just here to upset everyone... take a look at other threads.



posted on Jun, 3 2004 @ 01:51 AM
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That post to me, helped with the sincerity level. Why? Not cause of the link, which we will check for you
. But because you replied without attacking or being of an offensive mind.

I recommend you do attend your husbands masonry functions, I'm sure some of the distrust will still be there, and there will probably be some uneasy times for you. But we sit through that stuff for the ones we love.

I would also suggest, when you are at the functions, you meet some of the senior masons in your husbands lodge. Speak with them about your feelings. I'm sure that you won't be the first wife to not understand what their husband has gotten into
.

Forums are cool, but you can't tell if the person is being upright or truthful with you, atleast not as well as when you talk to someone face to face. Good luck, if you have questions or want my opinion further, cause I have started my journy to join, please U2U me.



posted on Jun, 3 2004 @ 02:49 AM
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I have to admit that I have an article about the whole phallus worship and the parts of it that I am able to follow along with are pretty jumbled up. I'm sorry but I just can't see my husband or any other "manly men" out there on their knees at the "totem" pole.


I went to a discussion board for ex jehovah's witnesses. I posted a question basically that said was raised as a witness as a child got out in my teens. Hubby joined Masons and I flipped out....anyone else have similar experience? I got several responses and everyone brought out the same point and I tend to agree. They all feel that because of the "early programming during the formative years" on all the evils in this world that sometimes you can't help but to have weird reactions to things that other people would just say is harmless and normal.

I did go and look at some of the other posts on this site and I found one from an Ely? I was startled because it started out quite similar to mine. Perhaps that was who I was being Identified as?

Anyway, have a good evening or morning as it's almost 3 a.m here. One of our dogs just delivered 7 pups to us by C-Section and it's been a very long day. Thanks again for all your help.



posted on Jun, 3 2004 @ 05:21 AM
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Originally posted by hope4me
I did go and look at some of the other posts on this site and I found one from an Ely? I was startled because it started out quite similar to mine. Perhaps that was who I was being Identified as?



No. I identified you as a character who calls himself Freemason/Mr Necros/ToBeinHisLight/LightBearer (and a dozen other psuedo-names).
If you look at your 2nd post, you will see that it is identical in content, structure and punctuation to theirs.

I'm afraid that you brought the derision on yourself. The wedding ring comment was totally and utterly uncalled for. I happen to be married and I took an oath to God when I got married - for you to call that into question and trivialise that oath and therefore question my integrity means that you left yourself open to deserved retaliation. To call into question masonry with regards to marriage is just as bad. And to use and twist a piece of the ritual that is probably one of the purest tracts of literature ever written by man to emphasise your argument is disgusting - yes, disgusting.

"Should I say that you are an Anti-Mason portraying yourself as a Mason so that you can make hateful comments and show the Mason's in a bad light?"

I am totally happy with who I am. I don't believe that I put masonry in a bad light. If I did, I am absolutely certain that the brethren here would tell me. And if they did that, I would stop posting here. So I have no problems with your comment other than with something that happened in the past here on ATS.
You see, I'm afraid that this comment means that I still suspect you. It was used against me before by the poster I mentioned when I unmasked him.




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