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Somebody please help?

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posted on May, 31 2004 @ 05:41 PM
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Originally posted by billmcelligott
That is the absolutely correct attitude to have.

Masonry should be questioned and explained.

If it is afraid of questions. then it gives the impression that it has something to hide. Which is where all this mistrust starts.


I can't agree 100% with what you're saying, Bill. If the questions are genuine questions, like "What are the tenants of Masonry?" or "Does Masonry have any opinion on this religious dogma?" Then yes, I'd agree that it would be wrong of Masonry to repudiate those questions per se.

But what if a question like "Can you give me any evidence that Freemasons aren't sun-worshipping baby burners?" Obviously, the question has an ulterior motive, and shouldn't be addressed the same way. Or, the threatening question : "Either tell me what happens in all your rituals, or I'm going to assume that you're doing something sinister." Some good-natured Masons say to themselves, "well, I guess the time has come to reveal everything that happens in the Lodge." I can't agree with this opinion at all. Giving into threats by non-Masons doesn't make one "modern" or "co-operative..." it just makes them unwilling to make tough decisions and stand up for Masonry. Now, as for why we shouldn't disclose what happens in the Lodge, see my other posts.

Additionally, non-Masons can sometimes ask what seems to be an innocent question, but go on asking it if they don't get an answer they feel is incriminating. Frankly, IMHO, it is not Masonry's place to defend herself from people who've taken it upon themselves to insult her. If someone talked about a regular person's home life the way people talk about a Mason's Masonic life, they'd be considered absolute boors and cretins.

Take this as an example: Say that someone at your workplace has worked for Amnesty International, but you didn't know this at first. One day, you find out that this person has worked for A.I., and suddenly you're possessed by chills and horror... every time this person is nearby, you feel evil radiating from him or her. Would you think it was right to present these feelings to everyone, and by implication demand that Amnesty International defend itself from accusations of being evil? No, of course you would not. In everyday, polite society, if we get these kinds of feelings about people, we try our damnest to ignore them, be kind to the person, and figure out why we're having obviously incorrect feelings. At very worst, we ignore the person in question. In this case, it is a husband, so we might discuss the feelings with the person and ask forgiveness for our own foolishness. We would never go to a bunch of strangers, put our feelings on the table, and demand an explanation for them.

But when it comes to Masonry, things are somehow different. Somehow, we're expected to explain everyone's feelings about Masonry, as if they're all somehow valid... I'm sorry, but sometimes they're not. I'm personally terrified of small animals, like hamsters or guinea pigs. My sister owns a chinchilla, and I had to take care of it. Every time I fed that damn thing, I had a terrifying vision of it burrowing under my skin and crawling around underneath. It was a completely absurd feeling, and I discussed it with my family, but I still fed the animal. I never took it upon myself to assume that every single feeling I have is rational, or based on real facts... it was just a phobia, and I did my best to operate as a civilised human being despite it.

When we give phobias or slander or hatred about anything credence in the real world, we tacitly confirm the possibility that those slanders have some basis in fact. What we should do, when we encounter someone with a baseless fear, is tell them, "I'm sorry you have that fear. You and I both know it is baseless, but that doesn't change the nature of the fear. Here are some things you can do to get over it, or cope with it." Masonry has nothing to be ashamed of, she has done nothing wrong, and therefore she has absolutely no obligation to defend herself.




posted on May, 31 2004 @ 06:00 PM
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Originally posted by ELY
But i will follow my instincts here unless the day i found out otherwise no offense to anyone who is a mason( i don't hate them) just keeping my eyes and ears wide open and being carefull.

Is your friend still being followed, from your recent post, advise
Is it the same friend who also has out-of-body experiences?
www.abovetopsecret.com...



posted on May, 31 2004 @ 06:12 PM
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interesting. Well, there goes my theory. Maybe we should all learn from them, as from what you say, there is no possibility for corruption, since there is everywhere else. Thanks for the info!



posted on Jun, 1 2004 @ 01:19 AM
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AK


I can't agree 100% with what you're saying, Bill. If the questions are genuine questions, like "What are the tenants of Masonry?" or "Does Masonry have any opinion on this religious dogma?" Then yes, I'd agree that it would be wrong of Masonry to repudiate those questions per se.


Well lets take this thread as an example then.

1) The original post is totally genuine and in that case, the questioner should be assisted to our utmost ability.

2) It is a scam post which has one object , to show Masons in a bad light firstly from the contents of the post and then from the contents of the replies.

If the Masons on board stamp all over it saying the poster is a stupid woman who has lost her marbles. The objective has been achieved has it not. Masons look like uncarring, selfish, ignorant biggots. Score 20 points to the antis.

Then on the other hand if the poster is totally genuine , look at the damage done to that one individual, that is not what I have been taught in my Lodge.

Genearally though you have a point, to me there are certain words and marks that we should not communicate, other than to another Mason.

It is a little academic though, as with a little dilligence certainly the three main degrees of Freemasonry can be found and downloaded from the internet.

But the concept of non - divulgence, if there is such a word, is I would say a personal one. The fidelity I keep is that which I promise to keep and so long as I do not transmit those few words and signs then I am true to my obligation.

The obligation clearly says not to divulge those SECRETS, it does not actually say not to divulge the ritual ? But that should be another thread of argument.



posted on Jun, 1 2004 @ 04:31 PM
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This is the very same story that was posted at freemasonrywatch.org by a person styling herself Patsyjeff... word for word... we found out over time that Patsyjeff was a bit of a nutjob that posted under three different names with a number of different "horror" stories about Masons, and also posted at e5:11 in the women's section with the same stories.

I wouldn't take her seriously, my friends.



posted on Jun, 1 2004 @ 04:37 PM
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Originally posted by theron dunn
This is the very same story that was posted at freemasonrywatch.org by a person styling herself Patsyjeff... word for word...


Got a link to that?
No Google record of that post or anyone posting under the name "Patsyjeff."

......?

-B.



posted on Jun, 1 2004 @ 04:43 PM
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Unfortunately, no...

A group of us kind of took freemasonrywatch out about six months ago in a "cookout" over one particular posters incessasnt impersonations, illegal use of our images, copyright violations, spamming, virus attacks, trojan attacks, and other illegal acts which we used to have bravenet shut the site down... and the next five like it, which is why freemasonrywatch no longer has a chat area...

Sorry.



posted on Jun, 1 2004 @ 05:59 PM
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Originally posted by billmcelligott
The obligation clearly says not to divulge those SECRETS, it does not actually say not to divulge the ritual ? But that should be another thread of argument.


Well, I won't talk about my obligation in depth, of course, but mine obliged me not to reveal "the secrets or mysteries of ancient Freemasonry." I don't like or agree with the argument that "because someone else already knows it, it's not a secret, so we can divulge it freely." I'm sure you can see why that is silly. The rituals we enact are mysteries, in the sense that that word was used when written.

Besides the issue of obligations, however, I think there are far more important reasons not to disclose our rituals. First of all, I think there's no good reason for us to divulge them... other than people threatening us, saying "I'll think badly of you if you don't tell." That shouldn't be enough to convince any Mason. As for the reasons why a Mason shouldn't divulge anything that goes on in Lodge, there are several: i) the aforementioned obligation ii) The need for new candidates to come in with a "blank slate" re: their initiation and degrees iii) The discipline of silence improves the inner man iv) the silence of the initiate about simple things (about which it is possible not to be silent) is emblematic of the "naturally enforced" silence of the adept, who is unable to communicate those things he or she has learned, because they are by nature ineffable.



posted on Jun, 1 2004 @ 06:06 PM
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Is there a Masonic takeover happening at ATS?

Will William allow it?

Has anyone noticed that the freemasons that post are generally informative, humorous, balanced, free thinking, with a diversity of interests?

(Except maybe FreeMason, but who knows his Masonic ties!
)





posted on Jun, 1 2004 @ 06:14 PM
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Originally posted by MaskedAvatar


(Except maybe FreeMason, but who knows his Masonic ties!
)




Heh. I do.
And I can tell you that he has none whatsoever.



posted on Jun, 1 2004 @ 06:15 PM
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MA, Ive certainly noticed it. YOu gotta admit, they are doing a fine job of dispelling anti-Mason garbage. And the humor
Certainly perked up the Secret Societies section on ATS.
Just what a conspiracy theorist needs after a hard day at the tin-foil-hat factory. Or a few hours in the Mud Pit.

You realaly have to wonder how many of us have been swayed by their good-humor and candor.



posted on Jun, 1 2004 @ 06:36 PM
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Originally posted by MaskedAvatar
Is there a Masonic takeover happening at ATS?

Will William allow it?

Has anyone noticed that the freemasons that post are generally informative, humorous, balanced, free thinking, with a diversity of interests?

(Except maybe FreeMason, but who knows his Masonic ties!
)




Very subtle MA! Oh, BTW, notice your Post Number:566644

Deceiver!!! Forked tongue spouter of Lies!!


Just thought that was an amusing coincidence, ya know! Although, I consider you to be one of the Straightest Shooters there are here at ATS. So that just shows how well that Numerology 'Mark of the Beast' Decryption stuff works, huh?!?!

Also, I still kinda miss FreeMasons Stubborn Devotion to The Truth of which he spoke of. (Which he may have been the only person to arrive at some of that Hidden Knowledge, so to speak, is another topic entirely however.) On a good day, he could actually make a decent conversationalist though, for what little I experienced. He just seemed to have that personality type similar to the Old Grumpy Neighbor who seems to have nothing else on their mind other than telling you how worthless and sad today's culture is compared to his generation. I find that to be a strange yet comforting type of character to interact with now and then.



posted on Jun, 1 2004 @ 11:04 PM
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Thanks to everyone who has given me sound advice and replies. First, the website where I found the most information on actual degree work was www.aasrvalleyofjax.org To the "Mason of Good Moral Character" I'll leave it to you to decide if it's correct or not. As for the smart ass replies? Aren't you supposed to be of good moral character with a belief in "god"? If so, then you must not be of such high morals that you attempt to demean me just because I asked for help. I do believe that your comments show that you must not be living up to your "Masonic" image. Maybe you need to go back and do your degrees again because you obviously haven't become the better person Masonry was supposed to make you.

To answer some questions, my husband and I do attend church together but not regularly. It is a Baptist Church. In all honesty, my attendence there is for the sake of my children and my husband mostly. IMHO, my early years, being dragged to the Kingdom Hall 3 times a week pretty well burned me on religion and sometimes I feel that I'll never figure it all out. The way I describe it to people to give them a basic idea of what I feel is I ask them to think back to their childhood when they were scared the boogieman was under the bed. Most parents would say there is no such thing. I was taught that there was such a thing and I had to pray! I used to sleep with a tape of bibles stories playing under my pillow because I was so scared as a child. Remember the whole DEMON SMURFS? My mom threw away my smurf sleeping bag. KISS RECORDS? Burned! To this day I have a deep aversion to being alone in the dark. When attending a funeral...most have the comfort of the ministers words when he speaks of the deceased being in heaven. I just sit there thinking back to all the 2 hour long discussions stating that only 144,000 go to heaven, the rest return to dust and await the resurrection...but only if you have been a true JW. If you weren't you awaited judgement. Even if I don't believe everything taught by the JWs, it's very hard to rid yourself of the things that were drilled into you from infancy to teens.

No, I'm not a person who is into conspiricies. I've been on the Ephesians website and other places like that and I don't believe in taking partial sentences and words and twisting them into some pretty bizarre meanings.

When I said I had a problem with some of the oaths:

Furthermore: I do promise and swear that I will
not have illicit carnal intercourse with a Master
Masons wife, widow, mother, sister or daughter,
nor suffer it to be done by another if in my power
to prevent.

Furthermore: I do promise and swear that I will
not be present at the initiating, passing, or raising
of an old man in dotage, a young man under
age, an irreligious libertine, an atheist, a person
of unsound mind, or a woman, knowing them to
be such.

. I find that particular Oath to be degrading to every wife out there. I question it because if only men of good moral character are accepted, then why in the heck are they basically saying it's okay to have illicit relations...just don't do it with another Mason's relative or wife? I also have a problem with a man being required to remove his wedding ring for each of the first three degrees. My personal feeling is that if Masonry is based upon allegories, symbolism, and a belief in some form of God....then why are the requiring a man to strip off the ring that symbolizes his faith and love in his wife? I understand a man must present himself as a person having nothing, a young apprentice..etc. etc. Still...if he is allowed to wear a pair of pajama bottoms with one leg rolled up then he should be able to wear his wedding ring. For those who will say just because a man isn't wearing his wedding ring doesn't make him any less married or some other crap like that, it isn't the point. The point is what the ring symolizes. It symbolizes more than just being "unavailable". If before every degree a man is told that there is nothing that will be done that goes against god, family or country, then how can they require a man to take his ring off? That does go against family because you are stripping him of his symbol of marriage and in theory, placing the teachings of Masonry above family. No, I have no desire to sit here and scream EQUALITY...You must let me join... but I do think that the least they can do is respect the sanctity of marriage and show the respect that a woman deserves. Besides, I have no desire to be paraded around barechested by a rope, blindfolded and have swords and compasses pressed to my chest.

As for whether or not Masonry is a form of religion, I can't say that I have fully figured that one out either. I will honestly cut and paste below what some of the things are that I have looked at while searching for an answer to this. I do not have the websites to these, they were articles I saved. Again, I am not trying to start an argument with anyone. I'm trying to understand and overcome my fears. I'm trying to give to those who were kind enough to offer help an idea of where I've searched for answers.

Dictionary Definition of Worship, not sure which one:

To worship is to formally praise, honour, and declare one's devotion to a supernatural being, typically a god or goddess. Typical acts of worship include:
prayer;
sacrifice;
rituals;
meditation;
holidays, festivals;
pilgrimages;
hymns or psalms;
the construction of temples or shrines;
the creation of idols of the deity.


The Thirty-second Degree
"Master of the Royal Secret"
~ Summary ~
This degree teaches many lessons, but the mystery
concealed is that man is a creature of free will and
capable of recreating himself. If he accomplishes
this goal, he will attain a genuine power that can
shake the limits of science, surpass the problems of
this earth, decipher the secrets of space, surpass the
limits of ceremony and catechism, and attain genuine
enlightenment; a gnosis which is the foundation of all
religions. He will also surpass the narrow views of
interest in the area of morals, and will comprehend
a genuine virtue that transcends his own interest.
Thus, it will become his nature to help his fellow men,
and, in so doing, he will discover the divine light
within which brings true freedom of thought,
freedom of conscience, and
freedom of culture.

DUTIES:
A Soldier of the Light seeks truth and knowledge.
A Soldier of Freedom demands for the people free vote
and voice and attains freedom of voice, vote and
opinion for himself.
A Soldier of the True Religion combats spiritual tyranny
with reason and truth.
A Soldier of the People encourages men to be
self-reliant and independent.
A Soldier of Scottish Rite Masonry is zealous and
ardent in the performance of his duties to God, his
country, his family, his brethren and himself.
FOR REFLECTION:
Do you endeavor to achieve the Royal Secret in
your life and within yourself?
IMPORTANT SYMBOLS:
The Camp, Lesser Tetractys, five-pointed star,
Greater Tetractys, seven-pointed star, triple
interlaced triangles, Trimurti (3-faced bust).

Gnosis involves direct "knowledge" and experience of the sacred, rather than relying exclusively on faith, belief or study of sacred texts. The gnostic (Arabic: 'arif) draws upon this inner experience and knowledge to describe the origin and true nature of all things
Gnosis comes from a Greek word meaning 'to know' in the sense of 'to be acquainted'. Gnosis in a more specific religious sense refers to the knowledge of God and the fullness of the true spiritual realms through direct personal experience. Similar terms are jnana (Sanskrit) and ma'rifat (Arabic). A gnostic is someone who has had such an experience or who has been initiated into a tradition which provides access to such personal revelations

In the one below, I did not add any of the references to pages or the names of what the sentences came from. I found it like this.

It is impossible that a Freemason can be 'true and trusty' to his order unless he is a respecter of religion and an observer of religious principle" Mackey's Revised Encyclopedia of Freemasonry, Vol. II, p. 847] "The religion of Freemasonry is not sectarian. It admits men of every creed within its hospitable bosom, rejecting none and approving none for his peculiar faith. It is not Judaism, though there is nothing in it to offend the Jew; it is not Christianity, but there is nothing in it repugnant to the faith of a Christian. Its religion is that general one of nature and primitive revelation handed down to us from some ancient and patriarchal priesthood -- in which all men may agree and in which no men can differ" [Mackey's Revised Encyclopedia of Freemasonry, Vol. II, p. 847-48]. Henry Wilson Coil in his 15,000-word article proving Freemasonry is a religion correctly concludes: Nothing herein is intended to be an argument that Freemasonry ought to be religion. Our purpose is simply to determine what it has become, an is" [Coil's Masonic Encyclopedia, p. 513]

Answering more questions: No, I don't feel this way due to some sort of jealousy because my husband is gone to secret meetings. He is also a member of other clubs, very active with charities and goes out once in awhile with the guys for a few beers. No, I've never been worried about extra marital affairs or anything like that. No, I don't resent it taking time away from home. Time away from home is good. Can't miss it if you never leave it. Yes, I know several of the members and I can't understand how some of them are even allowed to be members considering I can name off a large handfull known for smacking around their wife and kids, cheating on them, drunkards and drug users. Of course, you have that in anything, including church. Hypocrites one and all and they should not be tolerated anywhere.

So, maybe the problem does lie in how I was brought up religiously. All I know is that even as I sit here typing this, I am uneasy and keep feeling like I need to look over my shoulder. My marriage is of the utmost importance to me. I've never asked my husband to give up his desire to be a Mason, I have never questioned him on what activities take place at the lodge. I just want to find some way that I can live with the fact that he is doing something that scares me so badly in such an irrational way.



posted on Jun, 1 2004 @ 11:18 PM
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Sorry to burst your bubble but I'm not Patsy Jeff. Don't know who that person is. If my questions and story is the same then please, direct me to the link or post the whole thing here so I can see it. Again, this question I asked was genuine. I am trying to find a way to convince myself that I am being ridiculous about my fears. Use this for an example. Someone walks up to you, a friend even, and is holding a gun that they SAY is unloaded. Would you 100% believe without question that the gun was unloaded? Would you trust their word enough to allow them to pull the trigger? Could you stand there while the trigger was being pulled and not flinch even a little?

Don't I have the right to question this? To find a way to attempt to ease this? I could of been a horses butt and demanded my husband not do it. I could make his life miserable every time he goes to the lodge. I choose not to.


"The Blue Degrees are but the outer court or portico of the temple. Part of the symbols are displayed there to the Initiate, but he is intentionally misled by false interpretations. It is not intended that he shall understand them; but it is intended that he shall im- agine he understands them. Their true explication is reserved for the Adepts, the Princes of Masonry." (*Morals and Dogma*, p.819)



posted on Jun, 1 2004 @ 11:38 PM
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I just went back and re read my super long post and I apologize if I came off sounding like I was slamming the Masons. That is truly not my intent. I just want to understand what is going on and why I am reacting to all of this. I'll be the first to say that I am acting like a nutball and that just makes me feel even worse. I tried my best to convey my feelings and thoughts and to show the things that I had used to look up some info. What I failed to do was to describe some of that which I thought was positive. I do find their charity work positive. I do believe that the men feel a deep friendship and have a great feeling of acceptance where otherwise one might not. I do hope I haven't offended anyone by posting what I have believed to be actual oaths and rituals and such. This wasn't done with a malicious intent.



posted on Jun, 1 2004 @ 11:59 PM
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Originally posted by hope4me
Use this for an example. Someone walks up to you, a friend even, and is holding a gun that they SAY is unloaded. Would you 100% believe without question that the gun was unloaded? Would you trust their word enough to allow them to pull the trigger? Could you stand there while the trigger was being pulled and not flinch even a little?


Sorry, Hope4Me, but although I have sympathy for your situation (if it is real), I have no sympathy whatsoever for this kind of methapor. Masonry is not a gun, loaded, or unloaded. You see, guns have been shown in the past to do bad things. People have died as the result of a gun firing. People have used guns to commit crimes. None of this is true for Masonry. There is no past evidence of Masonry doing anything wrong on which to base this kind of (frankly) vicious metaphor.

If you are actually afraid of Masonry, I am sorry that you are. But the fear is irrational. There is nothing in Masonry to be afraid of, and you have no evidence that there ever has been. The fact that you pick out the usual slanders against Masonry (Masons swear to respect the chastity of the relitaves of other Masons! That means that they DISRESPECT the chastity of non-relatives of Masons!!!!!!) points out to me that you are not coming here to have your fears allayed, you are coming here to (as you so eloquently put it) "slam" Masonry. While I have sympathy for you as a human being, I have absolutely none for your hateful actions.


"The Blue Degrees are but the outer court or portico of the temple. Part of the symbols are displayed there to the Initiate, but he is intentionally misled by false interpretations. It is not intended that he shall understand them; but it is intended that he shall im- agine he understands them. Their true explication is reserved for the Adepts, the Princes of Masonry." (*Morals and Dogma*, p.819)


Ah, quoting Albert Pike out of context... the sine qua non of Anti-Masonic screeds. I had a little bit of doubt about you before, when you were merely parroting back the lies and hate propoganda found on Ephesians, but I'm shocked and appalled to see that my trust was so poorly founded.

Once again, I have sympathy for you as a human being, even if you are an anti-Mason, and engaged in the spread of slanderous lies. I sincerely hope you will someday see that you are hurting decent people, and a decent institution with your hateful behaviour, and think better of it.



posted on Jun, 2 2004 @ 02:37 AM
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AK


Well, I won't talk about my obligation in depth, of course, but mine obliged me not to reveal "the secrets or mysteries of ancient Freemasonry."

yes I take your point, but its hard to argue without some contact on the ritual.



posted on Jun, 2 2004 @ 02:44 AM
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hope4me




I find that particular Oath to be degrading to every wife out there. I question it because if only men of good moral character are accepted, then why in the heck are they basically saying it's okay to have illicit relations...just don't do it with another Mason's relative or wife?

If I said to you , please do not ride my bike. That does not mean , please go ride every other bike in town, ? your stretching your objection a bit there?





then why are the requiring a man to strip off the ring that symbolizes his faith and love in his wife?

It only happens at the initiation where the candidate is to be presented as you say poor and penniless.




if he is allowed to wear a pair of pajama bottoms with one leg rolled up then he should be able to wear his wedding ring.

Better than no PJs.

To worship is to formally praise, honour, and declare one's devotion to a supernatural being, typically a god or goddess. Typical acts of worship include: Yes , I bowed to The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
prayer; Yes
sacrifice; No
rituals; Yes
meditation; No
holidays, festivals; No
pilgrimages; No
hymns or psalms; No
the construction of temples or shrines; Yes well we meet in a hall.
the creation of idols of the deity. No





Gnosis comes from a Greek word meaning 'to know' in the sense of 'to be acquainted'.
Knowledge. ( and this is wrong?)




Henry Wilson Coil in his 15,000-word article proving Freemasonry is a religion correctly concludes: Nothing herein is intended to be an argument that Freemasonry ought to be religion. Our purpose is simply to determine what it has become, an is" [Coil's Masonic Encyclopedia, p. 513]


It is impossible to trick men into being part of a religion. It matters not what some author has written and how long ago. Like I said before your knew you were a JW, you knew what it meant , you knew you were taking part in a religious gathering. You can not create a religion and keep all the congregation out of the loop.

Freemasons today do not accept that masonry replaces any part of their religious conviction. Pike quite clearly made it abundantly clear Freemasonry is not a religion.



posted on Jun, 2 2004 @ 02:59 AM
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You are fighting over more than one thing here. Your intuition is telling you somethings not right, your also fighting for control over your relationship because you feel it has been taken somehow. Your not crazy, but i feel your marriage may not be a forever thing. Sorry, but i've seen this many times and it's how i'm perceiving and reading into this. Life is full of Mystery, we are given pieces of the puzzle and left to decide what to do with the rest. Everything we decide on is based on our own decisions and the destiny's we've mapped out for our undefined futures.



posted on Jun, 2 2004 @ 05:37 AM
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When will you guys learn!!!!????

Hope4Me is MrNecros/Freemason.


Mojom. You kinda missed him did you? Well you haven't been looking hard enough dude. He's been posting here all the time under other names.


Actually, I can't blame you. He is very sly. But then I've been sparring and exposing him for the better part of a couple of years now. His work stands out by a mile.
For anyone who still thinks that Hope4Me is genuine, I would ask you to read her first post where she states that she is just learning about freemasonry. A couple of posts later we have "her" quoting Mackay and Gnostisism like a pro. This is a typical MrNecros/Freemason troll tactic.

Somebody should ban this guy again. It's not fair on the masons here to have to keep looking over their shoulders and giving replies to questions which have a more devious agenda without knowing that they are replying to the same poster over and over again.

And isn't holding multiple accounts illegal here on ATS?

[Edited on 2-6-2004 by Leveller]



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