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Toyota's Stuck Accelerator Problem: The Real Cause

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posted on Mar, 11 2010 @ 05:16 AM
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Originally posted by Pilgrum

What's a worry is these signs that the control system logic can 'lock out' the driver from having the last word IE unable to simply turn off the ignition or take the vehicle out of gear if what's being reported in relation to some of these run-aways is fact.


Well this is the thing, why does turning off the ignition or placing it into neutral have no effect?

As far as my (limited) understanding goes, the gearbox is not fully automated (if at all) so placing it in neutral would disengage all the gears, the engine would continue to accelerate but do nothing to the car's wheels/drivability.

Turning off the ignition would kill the engine full stop, so how can your car continue to accelerate? You would loose power steering and the like also, but that's probably a good price to pay in the grand scheme of things.

Have any of the reports that claim placing in neutral and/or removing the key has no effect been investigated fully?



posted on Mar, 11 2010 @ 06:57 AM
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As a superyacht captain I have a slightly different view here, but I am agreeing in general. Back in the nineties, we all started going towards the electronic controls, or fly by wire. Everybody wanted to upgrade to the electronic controls. Everyone always thinks newer is better, as well as it being a keeping up with the Joneses type thing. On a big boat, you have a FAR greater run for the cables, as well as several steering and control stations. It is difficult to make fair runs for cables without sharp kinks over dozens of feet distances. The electronic controls were a blessing in this way, suddenly the factory didn't need to build in specific conduits to provide fair runs for the throttle and shift cables. Now you could position your shifters and throttles wherever you wanted, and it was easy to run the wires any old way if you wanted to add another steering station, for example adding a tuna tower on a sportfishing boat.

I quickly started refusing to install these things on any boat I was running, even convincing the owners to remove them and go back to the old mechanical cables. A boat has literally MILES more wiring than a teeny little car, and loads of other electronics, radar, fishfinders, etc. to provide radio noise to interfere with the shielding.

False modesty aside, I can tell when driving I am approximately a thousand times more qualified to drive a car than anyone else around me on the road. Driving a car to me is like driving the dinghy, something I would usually assign to one of the youngest crew members. I am used to assessing the speed and direction of other vessels from miles away, determining immediately how close to me they will approach and taking measures to avoid them well in advance. When I'm driving a little car, I am not looking at the car in front of me only, but as far ahead down the road as I can see, and determining my responses accordingly. That is how everyone should drive, but none do. So many times, I see a wide load truck or something moving slowly with flashing lights from miles away, and switch lanes to avoid it, while watching dozens of cars almost rearend it before they seem to even notice it is there.

Losing throttle control on something that has SIX THOUSAND HORSEPOWER and weighs a hundred tons, and HAS NO BRAKES is a little more serious than in a tiny little car with a sewing machine engine. Imagine about eight city buses bolted together, with NO BRAKES. A toyota camry or whatever accidentally flooring itself would just kind of make me laugh, and not be scary at all. It's not like it's a dragster, it just DOESN"T ACCELERATE VERY FAST no matter what you are doing. Someone pointed out in that video, the tach revving to six thousand whith the brake and open door lights on. That little engine couldn't spool up that fast if it was in gear no matter what, it just doesn't have the power.

My personal opinion is that we should be going to train systems everywhere, and do away with the idiotic cars altogether, but that's another story. I didn't read the whole thread, but apparently someone had his throttle stuck while driving, called 911 for four minutes before finally crashing? If that's what happened, that moron should never be allowed to operate machinery of any kind again. He thought MAKING A PHONE CALL was a smart thing to do when he is having a problem? And then they can blame the crash on the car instead of the driver? Come on.

People that crash because of something as simple as this just shouldn't be allowed to drive, period, because they are not capable. I know this will never happen, but it is my opinion that around ninety percent of the drivers out there simply shouldn't be driving, they are barely in control of their cars at the best of times, and anything going wrong like a flat, another idiot cutting them off, or even their stupid cell phone ringing causes a crash.

Anyway, just my two cents. We moved back to regular cables for controls shortly after they started using this stuff. It's a lot harder to stop 200,000 pounds of momentum being propelled by 6000 horsepower with no brakes if it starts getting away from you.



posted on Mar, 11 2010 @ 07:41 AM
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reply to post by CaptChaos
 


I hear ya. I wonder how many people have already died from this in plane crashes, train derailments, and dock mishaps.

That is why they are not revealing the truth. If the public knew, they would require that we go back to cables, and they would also want to know what the offending signal is.

Bottom line, greed and corruption.

I disagree with the not so powerful engine in cars these days statement. If anything, they are pound for pound, more powerful. And the brakes get hot, especially if working against engine power. Try it sometime, pushing on the gas and the brake at the same time.

Anyways, thanks for your response.

To bad people don't wake up to the massive conspiracy here. Who knows, maybe a few have got the message.



posted on Mar, 11 2010 @ 09:22 AM
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Originally posted by wylekat


The problem can't be fixed.


Yes it can. Instead of using idiotic amounts of electronics, go back to good ole MECHANICAL DEVICES in the cars! All this electronic stuff is for is to only 'sex up' the car anyways.

[edit on 2-3-2010 by wylekat]


Speaking as an old mechanic, I agree. Why upgrade something that has worked for many years? When I press on my accelerator a cable is pulled, and it in turn pulls on the throttle body's lever and allows more gas/air mixture to flow into the intake. When I release the pedal, the throttle closes, allowing me to slow down or stop at will. What is the matter with this method?

Folks, I am a computer repairman, I work on these PCs we all spend way too much time in front of.
Once in awhile, something goes awry, and the system goes down, I don't care what OS you run. Eventually something will happen requiring someone to fix it. I would NOT let my computer run my truck's throttle and brakes. Anyone who would do this is nuts! Tell Toyota to go back to the standard way or take their cars back to Japan. It is a fact Toyota makes a good car and truck, I had a little pickup myself that lasted a good long time, once I got all the factory junk off it's little motor. Airplanes are on a fly by wire system, not cars. Wise up, Toyota. Wise up Toyota owners.



posted on Mar, 11 2010 @ 10:01 AM
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toyotas have always been one of my favorite cars but for this to happen certainly needs a lot of recalls.
Saw the news of woman driving down highway with stuck throttle and another that crashed, not very good for the panicked or unexperienced to experience.
Either put car in neutral or turn ignition off and lose power steering/brakes, demand a refund.

[edit on 11-3-2010 by redgy]



posted on Mar, 11 2010 @ 10:23 AM
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reply to post by Grumble
 
I've heard the same thing. I believe one person even said they put the car in park and nothing happened.

I love that some think the guy was too stupid to put the car in neutral. Funny things happen when faced with those problems. I have put the car in neutral to stop sliding. One time though, as a car was coming straight at my car (albeit at slow speed) I didn't sound the horn, I yelled as if the guy could hear me.

Every circumstance will undoubtedly have different reactions in my opinion. That anyone can know what was going through this mans mind, is just guessing, and to suggest he is too stupid is, quite frankly dumb in and of it's self.



posted on Mar, 11 2010 @ 03:25 PM
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ABC admits tinkering with Toyota report

I would like to nominate Kinda Kurious for a HUGE APPLAUSE! As he pointed out on page 1, ABC faked the footage!!

[edit on 3-11-2010 by rogerstigers]



posted on Mar, 14 2010 @ 07:38 PM
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The story is slowly clearing up.

According to local media, the 'run-away car' guy is having his time in court to present his claims and has stated he did not attempt to put it in neutral despite even a request from a police escort because he was 'afraid it might flip' or words to that effect. Could be that he was also 'afraid' of what might happen if he switched off the ignition. Police have confirmed that his brake lights were on the whole time and they could smell the burning brake pads.



posted on Mar, 14 2010 @ 07:57 PM
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Originally posted by Pilgrum
The story is slowly clearing up.

According to local media, the 'run-away car' guy is having his time in court to present his claims and has stated he did not attempt to put it in neutral despite even a request from a police escort because he was 'afraid it might flip' or words to that effect. Could be that he was also 'afraid' of what might happen if he switched off the ignition. Police have confirmed that his brake lights were on the whole time and they could smell the burning brake pads.


You know what I think. I think they set the whole Prius thing up. Making it look like people just make the story up.

More lies, more cover-up. Noted in the Big Book



posted on Mar, 14 2010 @ 08:09 PM
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I smell a conspiracy. I thought about this recently because I had just seen "Who killed the electrical car?". To make money off of oil, the giants can't have this kind of technology out there. By rigging them to fail, they will ensure us buying gas powered vehicles are much safer and better. Therefore, we continue our addiction to their oil.



posted on Mar, 14 2010 @ 08:12 PM
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Originally posted by Equinox99
I smell a conspiracy. I thought about this recently because I had just seen "Who killed the electrical car?". To make money off of oil, the giants can't have this kind of technology out there. By rigging them to fail, they will ensure us buying gas powered vehicles are much safer and better. Therefore, we continue our addiction to their oil.


Hmm. I hadn't thought of that angle. Good one.



posted on Mar, 14 2010 @ 09:35 PM
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When I was SUV shopping a couple years ago, I was looking at Toyotas, and the sales monkey proudly declared that the steering of the RAV4 was electronic, steer-by-wire. I asked him if there was any physical link between the steering wheel and the front wheels, and he said "nope" like it was something that I'd be all impressed with. I told him that immediately eliminates the RAV4 from my list of possibilities.

Does anyone know if that's true about the RAV4? That's what the guy told me but I don't really know if it's fact, but no way would I ever think for a minute that steer-by-wire is a good idea. If it's true, wow.. wait til THOSE start crapping out.

And since when is a throttle-by-wire superior to a physical link? It's as though automakers are using technology for the sake of using it, regardless of the safety or reliability of it. Sometimes old skool is better, people.



posted on Mar, 14 2010 @ 10:07 PM
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Originally posted by AwakeinNM
When I was SUV shopping a couple years ago, I was looking at Toyotas, and the sales monkey proudly declared that the steering of the RAV4 was electronic, steer-by-wire. I asked him if there was any physical link between the steering wheel and the front wheels, and he said "nope" like it was something that I'd be all impressed with. I told him that immediately eliminates the RAV4 from my list of possibilities.

Does anyone know if that's true about the RAV4? That's what the guy told me but I don't really know if it's fact, but no way would I ever think for a minute that steer-by-wire is a good idea. If it's true, wow.. wait til THOSE start crapping out.

And since when is a throttle-by-wire superior to a physical link? It's as though automakers are using technology for the sake of using it, regardless of the safety or reliability of it. Sometimes old skool is better, people.


I believe the salesman was greatly misinformed, or was trying to impress by lying.

He may be confused with Electric power steering (EPS or EPAS). EPS replaces the hydraulic power steering assist with electric motors. Sensors in the steering column tell the control system how much current to send to the assist motors. The steering wheel is still mechanically attached to the steering system the same as in a hydraulic power assist system.

I do believe at this time "steer by wire" and "brake by wire" without a mechanical connection that allows operation if the electrical or hydraulic system goes out is Illegal at this time.

I did find some concept cars that are completely drive by wire, but they are just prototypes.



posted on Mar, 14 2010 @ 10:11 PM
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Originally posted by Dreamwatcher

Originally posted by AwakeinNM
When I was SUV shopping a couple years ago, I was looking at Toyotas, and the sales monkey proudly declared that the steering of the RAV4 was electronic, steer-by-wire. I asked him if there was any physical link between the steering wheel and the front wheels, and he said "nope" like it was something that I'd be all impressed with. I told him that immediately eliminates the RAV4 from my list of possibilities.

Does anyone know if that's true about the RAV4? That's what the guy told me but I don't really know if it's fact, but no way would I ever think for a minute that steer-by-wire is a good idea. If it's true, wow.. wait til THOSE start crapping out.

And since when is a throttle-by-wire superior to a physical link? It's as though automakers are using technology for the sake of using it, regardless of the safety or reliability of it. Sometimes old skool is better, people.


I believe the salesman was greatly misinformed, or was trying to impress by lying.

He may be confused with Electric power steering (EPS or EPAS). EPS replaces the hydraulic power steering assist with electric motors. Sensors in the steering column tell the control system how much current to send to the assist motors. The steering wheel is still mechanically attached to the steering system the same as in a hydraulic power assist system.

I do believe at this time "steer by wire" and "brake by wire" without a mechanical connection that allows operation if the electrical or hydraulic system goes out is Illegal at this time.

I did find some concept cars that are completely drive by wire, but they are just prototypes.


I figured as much. I couldn't imagine that a system like that would be a good idea. Looks like they're finding out that TBW isn't such a good idea either. Thanks for the clarification.



posted on Mar, 14 2010 @ 10:25 PM
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Originally posted by Dreamwatcher
I do believe at this time "steer by wire" and "brake by wire" without a mechanical connection that allows operation if the electrical or hydraulic system goes out is Illegal at this time.


I believe the Prius is entirely steer-by-wire. The braking system is by wire as well, but I think it also has mechanical braking as a backup.

I had a Prius. The braking was pretty sketchy, IMO.



posted on Mar, 15 2010 @ 08:28 AM
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reply to post by Grumble
 


You've talked me out of ever considering a Prius if what you say about steer-by-wire is correct. The braking system is partly electrical because they use regenerative braking to return energy to the battery but press the brake pedal hard enough and conventional hydraulic/mechanical brakes take over. At least the braking system *appears* reasonably fool-proof.



posted on Mar, 15 2010 @ 09:16 AM
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Originally posted by wylekat


The problem can't be fixed.


Yes it can. Instead of using idiotic amounts of electronics, go back to good ole MECHANICAL DEVICES in the cars! All this electronic stuff is for is to only 'sex up' the car anyways.

[edit on 2-3-2010 by wylekat]


I totally agree. From an automotive engineering standpoint, engineering a car to accelerate and brake controlled by a computer is idiotic, to say the least, and criminal, to say the most. I am sitting in front of a computer right now, as you are, if you are reading this. How ultimately stable and trouble free is that PC? I built mine myself, and am very careful to configure it so that it boots each time and works trouble free. sometimes it still goes haywire! Would I allow my own custom made computer to have control over my car? No way! Letting a computer, which is not really like a PC, it is a logic computer, that is, it has default settings, and it takes in information from many sources, such as the MAP sensor and the Oxygen sensor, and the fuel position switch, and then uses that information to decide how much fuel to introduce into the induction system, and when to fire the plugs, and where to set the timing. This is a lot for a simple logic computer, now they want to let it control the accelerator and brakes too! What happened to the gas pedal pulling a cable that was attached to the fuel plate lever, with a spring attached to pull it back into closed position when the driver let up on the pedal? What happened to using a KEY to start and turn off the engine? This is an automobile we are talking about here, not a spacecraft or airplane. I used to trust Toyota, not anymore.
There is such a thing as over-engineering a thing, and this is what Toyota has done here.



posted on Mar, 15 2010 @ 06:39 PM
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reply to post by Grumble
 


Again, you are confusing EPS (Electric power assist) with steer by wire.

Toyota website on Prius specs

To quote:




Steering:
Electric Power Steering (EPS); rack-and-pinion with electric power-assist



posted on Mar, 16 2010 @ 03:28 PM
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I've noticed a few of you seem to think these vehicles brakes and steering systems are electronically controlled, well...

NO VEHICLE'S BRAKES OR STEERING SYSTEM ARE COMPLETELY ELECTRONIC!! THERE IS ALWAYS A PHYSICAL LINK BETWEEN YOU AND THEM

They are electronically assisted by electric motors and nifty computers.ABS and traction control are two such systems that cycle your brakes to prevent them from locking up when you slam on them or to keep your tires from losing traction when you drive like an idiot.
There is always a physical link between you and these parts of your vehicle as a fail-safe in case one of these systems fail. So if your ABS or other brake assist system goes out you can still hit the brake pedal and you will still stop, minus the assistance of those systems.
I distinctly remember being told toyota was considering creating a fly-by-wire steering control system while I was in car college
but they never did it as far as I know. And after this it'll probably be awhile before someone at toyota mentions that idea again.



posted on Mar, 31 2010 @ 09:32 AM
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Found this video addressing the runaway Prius problem from a comedic angle

Warning: excessive profanity and potential to offend some viewers (apologies in advance to anyone offended by this) but some valuable techniques are demonstrated here.





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