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What IS the United States of America???

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posted on May, 30 2004 @ 10:35 PM
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With all the stuff that's gone down the past few years, it's got me thinking. What exactly is this nation that we call the United States of America? What is this nation truly about? What is ironic is that ultimately, is that the United States is what it calls itself as: a symbol of the world. It's a symbol of the world because, like the reality we live in, it is gray as gray can get. Forget right and wrong, the world is gray and the United States is a prime example of that.

The United States of America is definitely not an expansionistic, militaristic empire of gargantuan proportions. The country has neither the leadership nor the resources or culture to be such an empire with war as its primary tool. It actually takes a lot to be something like this, something romanticized in things such as Star Wars (Galactic Empire, Sith Empire). The U.S. can never be this kind of nation because the way we were built is contradictory to how such an awesome empire works. And yeah, to be awesome, you have to do extraordinary things and the U.S. is not capable of that.

However, the U.S. is also not a benevolent democracy that believes in peace, liberty, and justice for all the people of the world. It certainly claims to be, yet it still gains so many enemies throughout its history that it could hardly be called a state that believed in liberty and prosperity for all. A lot of what we do is for financial gain, because financial power and economics is our most powerful (and usually only) tool/weapon. We are a country run on money because one of our goals is individual prosperity. The question is, prosperity of whom? For everyone? Or for a select few with their own agendas?

My perception of the United States is exactly as above: gray. It is not the expansionist global empire trying to achieve utopia for itself, it is not the "good guy" who helps everyone achieve that utopia. To me, the U.S. is like any human. We all want something, something different, and we are going to fight one another however we can to get it. We always try to cut our losses, we always do what is most efficient and complex (because complexity is how you avoid losses). In the end, we're trying to achieve utopia, but not for everyone. A utopia only for ourselves. The U.S. is all about itself, just like any human being.

Obviously, this is not a U.S.-bashing thread, I just want to see how you all see this nation.

Any thoughts? Fire away.

[Edited on 30-5-2004 by sweatmonicaIdo]




posted on May, 30 2004 @ 10:52 PM
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Yup, I have a thought.

It is not our job to see to it that the world lives in an utopia. Do you see other nations worried in such a manner? Nope, I certainly do not.

We have entered into world conflicts that were advantageous for us and our allies. Both world wars were wars that would have been imprudent for us to sit out. Not only were allies embroiled in life or death struggles, but it would have been bad for us had our allies lost. Shortly after the second world war, the West entered a war of sorts with the Soviet Union, in which we fought proxy wars all over the globe. This was another case where it was not only to our benefit but to our allies as well. But unless that is the case, we are not duty bound to spread the good word of representative government, or differently, democracy.



posted on May, 30 2004 @ 11:07 PM
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Depends which "United States of America" you are talking about.

From Black's Law Dictionary, Revised 4th edition:

United States
This term has several meanings. It may be merely the name of a sovereign occupying the position analogous to that of other sovereigns in family of nations, it may designate territory over which sovereignty of United States extends, or it may be a collective name of the states which are united by and under the Constitution. Hooven & Allison, Co. v. Evatt, U.S.Ohio, 65 S.Ct. 870, 880, 324 U.S. 652, 89 L.Ed 1252.

Think I'm full of it?

OPEN YOUR EYES.



posted on May, 30 2004 @ 11:12 PM
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utopias are for communist



posted on May, 30 2004 @ 11:13 PM
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Do you have a 4th edition?!? I have the 6th, but I really want a 5th edition.

By the way, you are referring to the united states of America, not the United States of America. Big difference, as you know. Most folks haven't a clue. They don't know there is a difference between say, State of Alabama and Alabama state.



posted on May, 30 2004 @ 11:14 PM
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Very interesting. Compellingly thought provoking my friend.

I do not have an answer I would venture at this time but I WILL think about it.

Promise.

I can tell you one thing and from personal experience we are one fine group of good generous and caring people.nicest folks on the face of the earth.

Were good folks. We should remember that more often..me thinks.



posted on May, 30 2004 @ 11:15 PM
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In my view we have two U.S.A. governments;

The de facto current U.S. government, which is based on the Emergency Powers bullsh|t, etc. See Senate Report 93-549. Where we as Americans, have no rights, or power. And are controlled by the great plantation, called the Federal government

The de jure American government, the organic government, which (I feel) ceased after the Civil War. [a.k.a. The war of Northern Aggression] When the southern states were under Martial law, and only could be free, if they accepted to the terms set by the federal government.

See these are the things they don't teach you in that government controlled "PUBLIC" schools.

Still don't believe me?
Look it up yourself, teach yourself, and DECIDE yourself.



posted on May, 30 2004 @ 11:16 PM
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TC,

So you basically share my belief as well, that the U.S. is basically for itself, just like any person on this planet. Makes sense.

The problem is when people do not like the idea of the U.S. being the epitome of human nature and try to make it like we are "God's chosen nation" or whatever.



posted on May, 30 2004 @ 11:17 PM
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Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
Do you have a 4th edition?!? I have the 6th, but I really want a 5th edition.


Yep, found it at an old bookstore in Milwaukee, if you have any definitions you want looked up, let me know, i'll be in the chat room. I basically stole it, it was less then $15.00!

[Edited on 5-30-2004 by BeingWatchedByThem]



posted on May, 30 2004 @ 11:18 PM
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Originally posted by KrazyIvan
utopias are for communist


Umm... no. Utopia is basically what you or anybody else think the world should be. Your dreams, your ideas of how everything should be.

To burst your bubble, you do have a vision or a wish of the kind of world you wish to live in, don't you? Like they say, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.



posted on May, 30 2004 @ 11:20 PM
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gmcnulty,

Forget "good people." We're humans. 'Nuff said. Sorry to be brash, but we are humans.

American people, to me, are what defines human.



posted on May, 30 2004 @ 11:31 PM
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Originally posted by sweatmonicaIdo
Obviously, this is not a U.S.-bashing thread, I just want to see how you all see this nation.

Any thoughts? Fire away.

[Edited on 30-5-2004 by sweatmonicaIdo]


Semantics aside. I love this country and there is no other place I can imagine living. My father was an uneducated, coal miner who got his education from the military. At age 36 he finally got his masters degree in logistical engineering. He now travels the world, lives comfortably and has put his kids through college. Where else would he have been afforded these opportunities?

For all the problems this country has, for all the unyielding points of view, scandels, poor decisions, it is also the one with the most promise. So while I complain about our leaders and question their motives, I never forget how lucky I am to live in the US.

My god, it must be late, I am never this sappy.



posted on May, 30 2004 @ 11:43 PM
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Bleys,

It's very good to see you appreciate this nation for what it is.

However, what I was asking was not what was wrong with the nation, I was asking what this nation means. In other words, are we that benevolent "good-for-all" entity, the glorious global empire, or just a huge version of human nature?

I love this nation, it is the best in the world. But it's not because of what this country's supposed ideology is. I love this nation because the way it is run and the way it was built allows the full range of human nature (except for things like murder). America is a place where we can do pretty much whatever the hell we want without regard for how anyone else does. And the way the country is run, it's exactly the same. We do whatever we want no matter what the rest of the world says. We may try to act "good," but deep down, we know we are being who we be.

That's why I love America. We can be "good" or "bad." We can be human.

[Edited on 30-5-2004 by sweatmonicaIdo]

[Edited on 30-5-2004 by sweatmonicaIdo]



posted on May, 31 2004 @ 12:08 AM
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Originally posted by sweatmonicaIdo
gmcnulty,


American people, to me, are what defines human.


A` tad narrow if you will allow me an observation..........sure leave out a whole lots of God's other good people..............wouldn't you say?



posted on May, 31 2004 @ 12:40 AM
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Sweat, I get ill when people refer to the Iraqi Sweep, part II, as a war of liberation. Any critical thinker knows that was not the case. We went to stop Hussein from endangering us further, that's all. Any benefit to the Iraqi people is merely coincidental. I'm not saying that is bad, not at all. Every nation has to make its own decisions, and that nation never decided to oust Hussein. We had to make our decision, and Hussein was part of that which has to be cut out, for our nation's sake.

That is a particular example that comes to mind in reference to what you are talking about. The altruistic crap is for the thick-skulled and politically inept.



posted on May, 31 2004 @ 02:50 AM
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Every nation wants a utopia for itself and no-one else. The USA is just the most powerful (economically, culturally, and militarily) nation so it can forge out its utopia. To say the USA wants Utopia for everyone would be ignorant, as what is utopia for the USA isnt utopia for every other nation. in fact what the USA (administration) percieves as utopia isnt even what the majority of citizens want. The 'utopia' the US goverment is looking for is beneficial to people who are laready prosperous and has little to no benefits for those striving to be prosperous, it was not designed to benefit any other nation other than itself (if other nations benefit from it, it would be because the USA needed them to fulfill the 'utopia'). This in itself is not too bad, thats the way things are and of course the USA is going to squash anyone who gets in the way. What i dont like is how they try to pretend to be doing all this horrible stuff for the good of the world.



posted on May, 31 2004 @ 06:41 AM
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The idea that the US is some kind of "empire" built on conquest (as often portrayed by its enemies) is pretty absurd... If this WERE the case, we'd have far more than 50 stars on the flag, hehe....

But I will grant you that it's expansionist, but not in the normal sense when referring to countries... America (or at least our government), is more like a company than a country, in is its expansion tendancies... It will have "interests" abroad, but not out and out conquering and holding of territory.

I'll also take issue that it wouldn't have the resources to do it, if it truly wanted to be expansionist...we certainly could do this... Luckily, the big Mommy/Daddy of nukes keeps everyone playing a lot nicer than they did in days when it was limited to sword and cannon...



posted on May, 31 2004 @ 08:04 AM
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To say everything we do is good would most certainly be a lie. But, somethings are only bad because you say so, and some things are good because you say so. Its all about individual perception. To TC, we are the liberator. To others we are the occupier. There isn't a real defination of who and what we are because different folk have different opinions of each an every issue.

Personally, I feel the government can be somewhat evil, mostly greedy, and slightly corrupt. At the same time the folk that live in this country are good folk, and that makes up for all the evil, greed, and corruption because we really want to be about the right. When we feel something is wrong we have the means to change the government so that the problem is corrected. And, many may not agree with that but that is what representative government is all about--the will of the people. If the people were evil and corrupt then we'd have a problem in the United States...but generally we good folk.



posted on May, 31 2004 @ 09:17 AM
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Before you become locked in a set position read of and about the document found below which also now know as the Bush Doctrine and was on the White House web site when I looked last some long time ago(I somehow doubt its their. Even the folks who wrote took it down because of the stir it caused and still does. It called:

"Rebuilding America's Defenses: Strategy, Forces and Resources For a New Century," September 2000. A Report of the Project for the New American Century.
www.newamericancentury.org... ( Registers no file found)

But it can be now found at:
www.informationclearinghouse.info...
Read it and see why folk are upset. Below is a synopsis/encyclopedia info on the subject providing General Information on document with some background and related material
encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com...'s%20Defenses



posted on May, 31 2004 @ 09:54 AM
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Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
Sweat, I get ill when people refer to the Iraqi Sweep, part II, as a war of liberation. Any critical thinker knows that was not the case. We went to stop Hussein from endangering us further, that's all. Any benefit to the Iraqi people is merely coincidental. I'm not saying that is bad, not at all. Every nation has to make its own decisions, and that nation never decided to oust Hussein. We had to make our decision, and Hussein was part of that which has to be cut out, for our nation's sake.

That is a particular example that comes to mind in reference to what you are talking about. The altruistic crap is for the thick-skulled and politically inept.


Exactly. Our problem is that we are lying to ourselves and not recognizing who and what we are, what we do, and why we do it.



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