Akrotiri, the Minoan “Pompeii” - buried by the eruption of Thera (twice the size of Krakatoa!)

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posted on Mar, 2 2010 @ 02:02 PM
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A brilliant and coherent essay, ever thought of publishing in Antiquity?
I look forward to reading more of your work!




posted on Mar, 2 2010 @ 02:03 PM
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reply to post by Harte
 


It's a fifty mile gap, that is a pretty big gap. If the volcanic explosion created huge tsunamis, it would have sent huge waves crashing into the Nile Delta.

It doesn't seem all that unreasonable to think that this would be the cause of the plagues on Egypt. It would have been very devastating to all coastal civilizations based in the area.



posted on Mar, 3 2010 @ 04:24 AM
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To Harte:

If the tsunami had the potential to carve the gap between Crete and Kasos it would leave some evidence on Crete itself, no?

I am not familiar with the terminology in English but there is a property of waves of all sorts to "expand" their front when they pass through a narrow passage. In Greek the term is perithlasis. Now, with this in play, a front as narrow as 50 miles can expand to almost 8-10 times when the wave travels for about 1000 miles (sea currents, where present, can alter that). A big wave launched from Thera COULD reach the Nile Delta even if Crete blocks its straight path. what gets dispersed is energy, the "force" with which that wave would hit the Delta is significantly diminished. Even though Egypt has no high mountains near its northern shore to effectively block such a wave, the effects would not be as catastrophic as they were in the Aegean area. Still there would be some effect, perhaps enough to be called a "wound" or a "plague".

To butcherguy:

While the "accepted theory" is something like the essence of evil around here (or so it seems, by the way people react to it) it is what we have that is solid enough to not be contested, yet. I agree that if more evidence is found it will shift to encompass those too but until this happens, we like it or not, the accepted theory is exactly that - accepted because it fits the evidence at hand. Maybe it kills the buzz but this is how science works (hypothesis is formed, it is tested, where applicable, or backed by evidence and is "promoted" to fact. If and when new data occur that disagree with the standing theory, the theory is modified/changed to agree with what we know for sure and predict more accurately what we have not yet seen).



posted on Mar, 3 2010 @ 04:59 AM
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Some other photos I took during my last trip on Santorini :

Views of the Caldera from top of the crater :




Artifacts from Akrotiri:



Other view of the golden idol :




posted on Mar, 3 2010 @ 07:01 AM
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reply to post by Maegnas
 


Maegnas, Thank you my friend for your efforts in answering some of the questions/comments regarding my thread!

really, really appreciated mate!

After posting a large thread I often feel like a break but I feel rude not answering people's questions!!

So from now on, all correspondence regarding Kiwifoot's threads can be directed to Maegnas@AboveTopSecret.com





No just kidding, but seriously thank you, your answers were very helpful and insightful!

All the best, KF


[edit on 3-3-2010 by kiwifoot]
(removed oversized quote)

[edit on Mon Mar 8 2010 by Jbird]



posted on Mar, 3 2010 @ 07:25 AM
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Originally posted by Maegnas
To butcherguy:

While the "accepted theory" is something like the essence of evil around here (or so it seems, by the way people react to it) it is what we have that is solid enough to not be contested, yet. I agree that if more evidence is found it will shift to encompass those too but until this happens, we like it or not, the accepted theory is exactly that - accepted because it fits the evidence at hand. Maybe it kills the buzz but this is how science works (hypothesis is formed, it is tested, where applicable, or backed by evidence and is "promoted" to fact. If and when new data occur that disagree with the standing theory, the theory is modified/changed to agree with what we know for sure and predict more accurately what we have not yet seen).
No argument there, friend.

I guess some people look at a beach and see sand. I tend to wonder what's buried beneath the sand!



posted on Mar, 3 2010 @ 07:30 AM
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Originally posted by Maegnas
To Harte:

If the tsunami had the potential to carve the gap between Crete and Kasos it would leave some evidence on Crete itself, no?


The tsunami did leave evidence on Crete. Lots of it.


I am not familiar with the terminology in English but there is a property of waves of all sorts to "expand" their front when they pass through a narrow passage. In Greek the term is perithlasis. Now, with this in play, a front as narrow as 50 miles can expand to almost 8-10 times when the wave travels for about 1000 miles (sea currents, where present, can alter that). A big wave launched from Thera COULD reach the Nile Delta even if Crete blocks its straight path. what gets dispersed is energy, the "force" with which that wave would hit the Delta is significantly diminished. Even though Egypt has no high mountains near its northern shore to effectively block such a wave, the effects would not be as catastrophic as they were in the Aegean area. Still there would be some effect, perhaps enough to be called a "wound" or a "plague".


This is what I'm talking about.

The dispersal of the energy of the small portion of the wave that passed through the gap would continue until it reached land.

The effect is exactly as if the wave originated in the gap itself.

Now, if you want to calculate how much the energy reduction is, find the diameter of a circle with center at Thera and radius equal to the distance from Thera to the gap we are talking about.

Then construct the ratio of the width of the gap to the measure of the diameter you calculated.

This small fraction, when multiplied by the energy of the original wave when it reached Crete (estimate whatever you like here) will give you the energy of the equivalent (theoretical) wave as if it had originated at the gap.

One must then, as you indicated, consider that the wave will expand in a circle from that point, and note the dissipation as a fraction of this original (gap wave) energy, based again on a circle with center at the gap and radius equal to the distance from the gap to the Eyptian coastline.

Instead of using energy units, you could also use wave height, though the ultimate height of a tsunami depends in large part on the slope of the ocean floor near the coast.

Of course, the above is a rough estimate, even if we knew precisely how much wave energy was released into the original tsunami. The assumption of constant energy dissipation actually applies only to an area with a smooth ocean floor. The Med. has many areas - especially around Crete) where the floor is anything but smooth. This would further dissipate the wave energy.

Regarding the "Exodus" plagues, one should use the known date of the tsunami (assuming there was one) and see if any calamities are recorded in Egypt at that time.

The time is around 1615 BCE, IIRC.

I think you'll find that the Thera explosion made no waves (pun intended) in Egypt.

Harte

[edit on 3/3/2010 by Harte]



posted on Mar, 3 2010 @ 08:49 AM
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reply to post by Harte
 


I think we can say that we agree, in general, that a fraction of the wave could reach Egypt (the Nile Delta at least). Where we seem to disagree, although not by much, is the consequences, if any. Am I right so far?

I did point out in my previous post (not the last one, the one before that) that it is debatable what the wave did, in terms of disaster, to the Delta area. If the Egyptians have no records of a flood or a big wave, around that time, then it must have no noticeable effect in the area. I just left a window open because the area is not elevated, even medium waves could have an impact there. We just need some backing from the records of those that lived there at the time.

To Kiwi:

I don't think I can take on that role. I answered the questions I knew, or thought I knew. I love to contribute where i can and learn new things as I go. Once again, congrats on your very thorough presentation



posted on Mar, 3 2010 @ 10:17 AM
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Originally posted by Maegnas
reply to post by Harte
 


I think we can say that we agree, in general, that a fraction of the wave could reach Egypt (the Nile Delta at least). Where we seem to disagree, although not by much, is the consequences, if any. Am I right so far?

Yes, we agree.

When I said that Crete effectively blocked the tsunami, what I was saying was in agreement with what you said.


I did point out in my previous post (not the last one, the one before that) that it is debatable what the wave did, in terms of disaster, to the Delta area. If the Egyptians have no records of a flood or a big wave, around that time, then it must have no noticeable effect in the area. I just left a window open because the area is not elevated, even medium waves could have an impact there. We just need some backing from the records of those that lived there at the time.

You did and you are quite right.

On the other hand, there is no record of Moses anywhere in any ancient text, except (of course) the Talmud.

There is similarly no record of any Biblical-type plague in Egypt.

Also, there is no evidence whatsoever for the existence of Hebrews during that time period.

There is also no evidence for any claimed work (from the Talmud) being done by any enslaved group (again, from the Talmud) in Egypt, and in particular, one city the Talmud claims was constructed with Jewish slave labor has a known date of origin that is absolutely incompatible with what the Talmud says.

IOW, before considering whether Thera accounts for the Exodus, we should first determine whether the Exodus actually happened.

I maintain that it did not.

Of course, I could be wrong.

Harte



posted on Mar, 3 2010 @ 10:24 AM
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I wander if this happened in modern times here in the USA and someone uncovered the ruins of a city here what would they find? Would our cheaply made wood and plastic siding houses even hold up or would everything be destroyed beyond recognition. What fascinates me about ancient ruins is that they are still standing.
Why?
I believe it's because the ancients knew to build strong,houses using just the materials they could find. They used stone which is very sturdy. Why can't modern society do the same?
I love to imagine what ancient life would be like.

[edit on 3-3-2010 by dreamseeker]



posted on Mar, 3 2010 @ 08:20 PM
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Harte,

While ancient texts can serve as a "guide" of sorts to what may or may not have happened they are not evidence on their own so, to answer your concerns about the Talmud and how reliable it may be, I'd say that it alone cannot be counted as evidence (I know I am committing a capital sin here, not abiding to a Hebrew sacred text, but that's me
[/end sarcasm]). Without some kind of "outside" reference to what the Talmud claims I, at least, cannot take it for granted. I wouldn't go as far as deny everything in it, I just remain a bit skeptical about its content and to what extent it may be true.

Dreamseeker,

You said it yourself, ancient people built their homes, temples, city walls, etc, with material available and durable. Stone is surely durable and available in most places but, as building material, it has limitations. While it is one of the best insulating building materials one can find (a stone build house rarely needs air conditioning during the summer and requires less fuel to heat during the winter, compared to brick or wood buildings) stone cannot "rise" very high, like steel does. Building with stone alone would prevent architects from erecting some of the most spectacular buildings we see around us today, the buildings would be extremely heavy and thus unstable above a certain, not too great, height. They would be very durable though

On the other hand, not being able to exploit the land "vertically" would mean that New York City, for example, could be spread over an area many times larger than it is today (apply this to all major inhabited areas with high rise buildings and you will see the obvious problem, lack of space!). So, there are advantages to using material less durable but more "workable" than stone (it is cheaper, for once, since no special skill in stonecutting is required).
Of course, the ancients could not try their hand in building with, say, steel or glass simply because their technology (both in manufacturing and in applying said materials) was not advanced, to say the least.

About wood, as building material, nobody said the ancients didn't use wood in their constructions, buildings made entirely out of wood though tend to decay quite fast and usually are a distant memory after a couple of centuries. As far as I know, there is not one wooden building (entirely wooden!) that survives in its entirety and that is older than, say, 1500 years (if that!!).



posted on Mar, 3 2010 @ 09:17 PM
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Now that we've dated the Revelation at Sinai to September 3, 1446 BCE it appears that this event was the Spring of that year Exodus event!

Amazing times we live in to be putting it all together!
The Gold Ibex is excellent -the Ram being so significant to the Hebrews as their petroglyphs show!


[edit on 2010/3/3 by YeHUaH ELaHaYNU]



posted on Mar, 5 2010 @ 10:10 AM
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Your post has been a real pleasure to read and reflect on. Star and Flag to be sure


The sudden evacuation of this city's residents has me musing over where they re located. Were there any records of that?



posted on Mar, 7 2010 @ 10:17 AM
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reply to post by kiwifoot
 


One of THE BEST stories ever posted here...THANKS! Fascinating....



posted on Mar, 7 2010 @ 11:48 AM
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reply to post by Harte
 


Here is the evidence that proves a huge tsunami was created by the eruption.

www.nytimes.com...

Here is an article that puts the size of the eruption into perspective.

www.freerepublic.com...


Factoring in such evidence, McCoy calculated that Thera had a VEI of 7.0 - what geologists call colossal and exceedingly rare. In the past 10,000 years only one other volcano has exploded with that kind of gargantuan violence: Tambora, in Indonesia, in 1816, It produced an ash cloud in the upper atmosphere that reflected sunlight back into space and produced the year without a summer. The cold led to ruinous harvests, hunger and even famine in the United States, Europe and Russia.


Here is an interesting article I found on the subject.

Speaking about Minoan civilization.


And the one of the most civilized, beautiful expressions of humanity, wiped out in an instant. They invented toilets and designed bathrooms unsurpassed for thousands of years. The elaborate dresses of the vivacious ladies were not exceeded until the rise of the Versaille fashion designers of France.

The Nile's delta is directly opposite Thera and certainly was laid to waste by the great waves. Now that we have a definite date, it is no surprize, this coincides with the collapse of the Middle Kingdom and it also ushers in the Hyskos invasion from Caanan.


Which also links to this site.

looklex.com...


Second Intermediate Period
1650-1550 BCE. 15th-17th Dynasty
The Second Intermediate Period, is just like the first one where the unity of Egypt is lost. The dynasties lost their hold on Nubia and the Nile Delta. Small states took hold of Nubia, while the Hyksos established themselves in the Nile Delta, ruling from Avaris, and would at times represent the strongest force in Egypt.
The Hyksos was a foreign people, the indigenous Egyptians had Thebes as their capital. Finally, the Hyksos were defeated, and a new era of a united Egypt could start.


There is plenty of evidence that this event also had a huge impact on Egypt.



posted on Mar, 15 2010 @ 10:12 PM
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reply to post by YeHUaH ELaHaYNU
 


I am sorry but I cannot see the connection between the ibex and the Hebrew ram. If you imply some sort of influence, please provide some evidence about it.

The Exodus, while significant for Hebrews, went totally unnoticed by the Egyptians who supposedly opposed it and suffered greatly for opposing it. No mention of Moses or the Hebrews leaving en masse from Egypt, let alone when. These are the Egyptians who took record of almost anything that happened in their time, in their land, and yet they say nothing about the Exodus. The most advanced civilization of the Mediterranean at the time (I would say "of the world" but Indigo would be all over me in no time ;p), with one of the most sophisticated writing systems and a whole "cast" devoted to record keeping yet they are awfully silent about it? Tricky, to say the least.



posted on Mar, 15 2010 @ 10:21 PM
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reply to post by poet1b
 


The issue of the Hyksos always "troubled" me, for one reason. Who were they? where did they go once defeated in Egypt?

I would like to think, although I cannot prove it, that perhaps they were Minoan survivors (or a splinter group of some sort) that settled in the Nile Delta and from there exerted whatever power they could over Egypt. Also, after they were 'evicted', they took refuge to Palestine, becoming the Philistines (who also "named" the region Palestine). Of course, this is just an idea of mine that could very well be totally wrong. I have no timelines for relative events (no evidence that I know of for a Minoan settlement in the Delta, for example, when exactly did Thera erupt, when the Hyksos appeared, what was common, if anything, between Minoans and Philistines). One problem with this idea is the obvious, Minoans never seemed to possess the numbers to make them able to occupy even a small part of Egypt.

Still, it warms my heart to think this could be the case



posted on Aug, 20 2010 @ 01:03 PM
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reply to post by kiwifoot
 


I have always found the idea of the Minoan culture fascinating. It seems to me that echoes of it can be found in the Camargue. I was there a few years ago and went to the bullfights in Les Saintes-Maries-de-la-Mer. I wonder if the paintings of young women and men jumping over the bulls isn't more a bit of artistic license than the actual event. Even if it is it takes a bit of guts to face down a bull. The Camargue bulls are a tsty bunch at best. Here's a link to the bullfights in Arle.

www.youtube.com...

I find the St. Marie more intimate though.



posted on Aug, 20 2010 @ 01:56 PM
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The Hyksos were definitely not Minoans, they were "an ethnically mixed group with a Hurrian element" (Civilization Before Greece and Rome, H. Saggs). Their capital in Egypt was in lower Egypt in an area largely populated by Hebrews, which in all likelihood they had a closer affinity too than most of Egypt. Upper Egypt was ruled by Theban kings, who paid some tribute to the Hyksos. Just foreigners taking advantage of a weakened Egypt. I don't know if a tsunami alone could account for Egypt's collapse, but maybe it was a contributing factor. I definitely don't see it as a part of the "ten plagues on Egypt" of biblical origin. If you look at the history of the Hebrews and their writings, whenever they left a city under less than ideal circumstances, they justified it with religious overtones (God 'ordered' them to leave Ur, God said 'get out' of Sodom and Gomorrah, God said 'let my people go or I'll visit you with plagues' in Egypt, yada yada yada...)

What must have dealt the death blow to the Minoan civilization was the destruction of their fleet, since they relied on it almost exclusively for their defense. Without it they were overrun by Mycenaean Greeks. I imagine most Minoans were assimilated into Greek culture. They have found extensive Minoan artifacts above the ash layer in Crete so it didn't obliterate Minoans in one fell swoop.



posted on Aug, 20 2010 @ 07:37 PM
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I really wish I could give you something besides a star and flag for for this spectacular thread

I don't know what to look at first it's a mind boggling feast for the eys and brain

just look at what a beautiful peaceful refined and abundant life they had!

the gorgeous art work on the walls it's like a portrait of civilization without poverty

and the buildings are so intact I could almost imagine moving in

thank you for one of the best Posts I have ever seen on ATS!!!





 
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