Hold Up ! Let's Not Throw Out the Baby With the Bath Water !,
I Do Not believe All Preachers Are crooks !, A Lot of Them Do Excellent Work.
"by their fruits ye shall know them" Perhaps You should Look At The Works Of
Those Preachers Who Do good Works & Tithe There !
I Agree there Is A Few Of them Who Steal From God & The Poor. And In His time GOD Will Deal Harshly With them ALL !
But For The Time being, I Suggest You find A Church you Can Trust, Then
Lay up Your treasures In Heaven, Not Worry About What Others Are doing
In The Here & Now, Trust Me GOD Knows What Is going On.
Tithing..... And the scum that rob God..., page 7
privacy
reply posted on 1-3-2010 @ 09:50 AM by HooHaa
reply to post by truthseeker1984
I understand your frustration. The problem is they are decieved and confused. Dont get me wrong here, I am a christain and believe in tithes. You can tithe 10% of anything, time, money, food, cloths. It's all on the table.
I have understood an eternal truth. You will reap what you sow. Your dad is sowing money. In time depending on the seed. He will reap just that. Dont be harsh on him.
I understand your frustration. The problem is they are decieved and confused. Dont get me wrong here, I am a christain and believe in tithes. You can tithe 10% of anything, time, money, food, cloths. It's all on the table.
I have understood an eternal truth. You will reap what you sow. Your dad is sowing money. In time depending on the seed. He will reap just that. Dont be harsh on him.
reply posted on 1-3-2010 @ 09:55 AM by Mykahel
reply to post by Yissachar1
I agree with you to a degree. I suppose I should also mention that I myself am a youth minister (been at it for about a year now) and my salary is anything but impressive. I don't really want anything more though because my wife and I are getting along just fine.
1 Timothy 6:7-9 (NIV)
7For we brought nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out of it. 8But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that. 9People who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction.
I think the pastors you have mentioned fit into that category of those who have fallen into the money trap. I can think of a few myself.
Your assessment that money wasn't used in the tithe at all is not 100% accurate.
Mark 12:41-43 (NIV)
The Widow's Offering
41Jesus sat down opposite the place where the offerings were put and watched the crowd putting their money into the temple treasury. Many rich people threw in large amounts. 42But a poor widow came and put in two very small copper coins,[a]worth only a fraction of a penny.
43Calling his disciples to him, Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, this poor widow has put more into the treasury than all the others.
Also consider in the book of Acts where people would sell or share their belongings as needed and lay the money from those sales at the apostles feet for distribution to those who have need. Now, I must admit that for a while I wondered whether or not it was right for ministers to be paid out of the tithes, as you are right that some if not much of it should be given to those who are in need.
1 Timothy 5:17-18
17The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching. 18For the Scripture says, "Do not muzzle the ox while it is treading out the grain," and "The worker deserves his wages."
and..
1 Corinthians 9:13-14 (NIV)
But we did not use this right. On the contrary, we put up with anything rather than hinder the gospel of Christ. 13Don't you know that those who work in the temple get their food from the temple, and those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar? 14In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.
I agree that many have turned the tithe into something that it was never supposed to be. But you also have to recognize that for many churches, a large portion of the tithe goes to missions both locally and abroad. I know that about 12% of our entire budget is used on missions. We also have to make mortgage and utility payments. A lot of the tithe is spent on materials for educational purposes and so on so forth. I'm not going to deny that a lot of it is also used for paying the salaries of those working, but I wanted to point out that the entire tithe isn't just going to the ministers.
I stand with you in condemning those who think the gospel is supposed to be a tool for gaining wealth though. While administering the gospel should provide for your living, it is not the "health and wealth" gospel that so many televangelists have made it to be. Earlier I quoted from 1 Timothy 6. The verses proceeding what I quoted tell warn us of using the gospel as a means of financial gain.
1 Timothy 6:3-4
3If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, 4he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions 5and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.
In summary, I guess these are the points I was trying to make...
1) Modern tithing is best understood and exercised by monetary donations, though donations of other things should be acceptable as well.
2) Ministers are supposed to be paid for their work, assuming that they are actually working. Many of them do virtually nothing and get paid well for it.
3) Those who are taking advantage of the church and using the tithe as a means to make themselves rich (as opposed to simply earning a living) are in danger of the fires of Hell. They are robbing God just as you mentioned earlier.
Hopefully I have presented covered this issue adequately. I think you can see where I agree but also disagree. Please let me know what you think.
I agree with you to a degree. I suppose I should also mention that I myself am a youth minister (been at it for about a year now) and my salary is anything but impressive. I don't really want anything more though because my wife and I are getting along just fine.
1 Timothy 6:7-9 (NIV)
7For we brought nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out of it. 8But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that. 9People who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction.
I think the pastors you have mentioned fit into that category of those who have fallen into the money trap. I can think of a few myself.
Your assessment that money wasn't used in the tithe at all is not 100% accurate.
Mark 12:41-43 (NIV)
The Widow's Offering
41Jesus sat down opposite the place where the offerings were put and watched the crowd putting their money into the temple treasury. Many rich people threw in large amounts. 42But a poor widow came and put in two very small copper coins,[a]worth only a fraction of a penny.
43Calling his disciples to him, Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, this poor widow has put more into the treasury than all the others.
Also consider in the book of Acts where people would sell or share their belongings as needed and lay the money from those sales at the apostles feet for distribution to those who have need. Now, I must admit that for a while I wondered whether or not it was right for ministers to be paid out of the tithes, as you are right that some if not much of it should be given to those who are in need.
1 Timothy 5:17-18
17The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching. 18For the Scripture says, "Do not muzzle the ox while it is treading out the grain," and "The worker deserves his wages."
and..
1 Corinthians 9:13-14 (NIV)
But we did not use this right. On the contrary, we put up with anything rather than hinder the gospel of Christ. 13Don't you know that those who work in the temple get their food from the temple, and those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar? 14In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.
I agree that many have turned the tithe into something that it was never supposed to be. But you also have to recognize that for many churches, a large portion of the tithe goes to missions both locally and abroad. I know that about 12% of our entire budget is used on missions. We also have to make mortgage and utility payments. A lot of the tithe is spent on materials for educational purposes and so on so forth. I'm not going to deny that a lot of it is also used for paying the salaries of those working, but I wanted to point out that the entire tithe isn't just going to the ministers.
I stand with you in condemning those who think the gospel is supposed to be a tool for gaining wealth though. While administering the gospel should provide for your living, it is not the "health and wealth" gospel that so many televangelists have made it to be. Earlier I quoted from 1 Timothy 6. The verses proceeding what I quoted tell warn us of using the gospel as a means of financial gain.
1 Timothy 6:3-4
3If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, 4he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions 5and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.
In summary, I guess these are the points I was trying to make...
1) Modern tithing is best understood and exercised by monetary donations, though donations of other things should be acceptable as well.
2) Ministers are supposed to be paid for their work, assuming that they are actually working. Many of them do virtually nothing and get paid well for it.
3) Those who are taking advantage of the church and using the tithe as a means to make themselves rich (as opposed to simply earning a living) are in danger of the fires of Hell. They are robbing God just as you mentioned earlier.
Hopefully I have presented covered this issue adequately. I think you can see where I agree but also disagree. Please let me know what you think.
reply posted on 1-3-2010 @ 10:09 AM by romanmel
reply to post by Mykahel
Bless you in your work for Him.
I would only point out that the "temple tax" was for the support of the temple which was destroyed about 2000 years ago. Jesus did not establish a new temple, but taught the temple was within us.
The tithe as taught in modern Christianity is in gross error. Christ taught we owe it ALL to Him...not a business called church.
Bless you in your work for Him.
I would only point out that the "temple tax" was for the support of the temple which was destroyed about 2000 years ago. Jesus did not establish a new temple, but taught the temple was within us.
The tithe as taught in modern Christianity is in gross error. Christ taught we owe it ALL to Him...not a business called church.
reply posted on 1-3-2010 @ 10:15 AM by Yissachar1
reply to post by Rockstrongo37
Again I am afraid that your understanding of the Word is shallow and ignorant...indeed the church DOES need pastors and teachers. Ephesians 4:11 It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, Look you dont need to give your money to the church as tithe, infact God doesnt want your "treasure" because your heart is clearly not joyful in such a gift. 2 Corinthians 9:7 (New International Version) 7Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. So I would think that what ever you do give, its founded in your resentment over being asked to give money, and the fact that you dont seem to have a problem giving a can of corn and yet do have a problem giving a few bucks tells me clearly that money itself may be a stumbling block for you. Honestly...the very fact that you have such difficulty giving a tithe of your income should indicate that you should dicipline yourself to give just that! Your money. Dont be foolish and give it to some crooked preacher that clearly doesnt spend it righteously, but give it. Finally, your effort here is leading people off the path that God intended and you will have to take real responsibility for your words before him.
Dont threaten me with the word of God sir.. You do not know me or the heart that this is coming from... In fact why on earth would I want to listen to sermons that come from such an arrogant and judgmental person anyway?? You sound much like a pharisee, the very same ones who Yeshua said that we should be wary of.. The very same ones who shut up the Kingdom of heaven against men, for they neither go in themselves and stops others entering from going in with bad doctrine, and burdens that Yeshua freed us from.. Those very same people who Like the best seats and to be called "pastor" and be fawned over by the congregation.. The same ones who devour widows houses and for a pretense make long prayers... Those same who are full of dead mens bones.... Those that Yeshua called serpents and a brood of vipers.... Those same who He condemned to hell and whose blood of all the righteous are on their hands.... Thats what God thinks of organised religion and the hypocrites who burden their flock/money slaves with..... Mathew 23..... Read it....
Was that judgmental enough to be in YOUR church???
Edit to add; I have no problems giving offerings to church to cover overheads... However I DO have problems with it being used to buy a new fancy shmansy property that there is no need for... My moms church stated out as a small gathering of people.. Then that grew, and God provided a hall for FREE... It grew even more and God provided a whole building for FREE... The church has stopped growing now... Why??? They have fell into the money trap, and the pastor has developed an ego the size of Everest... Now the church is in decline.. I wonder why?? When you are planted in a place then that place is your mission ground.. Yet the church became to fearful for their own safety to be effective in the place God put them.. It is now just a sunday praise club like a lot of places
.. However God will have His way.. Because if THAT pastor isnt doing his job, then God will find someone
who will... We are ALL Gods annointed after all... It is He who qualifies us and not some seminary... [edit on 1-3-2010 by Yissachar1]
[edit on 1-3-2010 by Yissachar1]
reply posted on 1-3-2010 @ 10:20 AM by arizonascott
reply to post by Yissachar1
I hear you on that one and I was raised Mormon (never really felt comfortable around "snobby religous people"). My Father was a Deacon in the priesthood and back then loyalty to the church meant everything.
I still remember having to go into a small meeting room with my parents where they would have to discuss how much in tithes they would have to pay. It seemed almost like a very important tax meeting with the IRS but in a more respectful God kind of way I guess.
My Father worked two jobs, one as a high school teacher and one as a bookstore salesman. My mother worked full time for the local bank and also for the womens 'Relief Society" at the church. Three full time jobs to support a family of 5, while paying taxes and 10% tithes.
The only thing I remember after all those years of "Tithings" is how the Morman church threw my family to the curb when my parents divorced. In the church there is certain shame on any family that breaks up. This was the late 70's, early 80's.
So after years of paying tithes, living in a strict religous home, and going to church three times a week - we ended up a lost family, with no religion and almost no stability.
Oh, and I never even heard one word about Polygamy in the church until 10 or so years after we stopped attending. Funny how that subject is lost in a church founded by Joseph Smith - a well known Polygamist. It is their dirty little secret. Trust me - it isn't the coversation in Sunday school class.
How do you keep a church going based on the faith and teachings of a Polygamy founder - by cutting out those teachings that are based on that lifestyle. For such an "above everyone else" self absorbed church - that has always bothered me - like they are tithed while living a lie.
But, thats just me. I can still have contact with my God, my God loves me, and my God lets me keep my 10% to provide what my family needs.
[edit on 1-3-2010 by arizonascott]
I hear you on that one and I was raised Mormon (never really felt comfortable around "snobby religous people"). My Father was a Deacon in the priesthood and back then loyalty to the church meant everything.
I still remember having to go into a small meeting room with my parents where they would have to discuss how much in tithes they would have to pay. It seemed almost like a very important tax meeting with the IRS but in a more respectful God kind of way I guess.
My Father worked two jobs, one as a high school teacher and one as a bookstore salesman. My mother worked full time for the local bank and also for the womens 'Relief Society" at the church. Three full time jobs to support a family of 5, while paying taxes and 10% tithes.
The only thing I remember after all those years of "Tithings" is how the Morman church threw my family to the curb when my parents divorced. In the church there is certain shame on any family that breaks up. This was the late 70's, early 80's.
So after years of paying tithes, living in a strict religous home, and going to church three times a week - we ended up a lost family, with no religion and almost no stability.
Oh, and I never even heard one word about Polygamy in the church until 10 or so years after we stopped attending. Funny how that subject is lost in a church founded by Joseph Smith - a well known Polygamist. It is their dirty little secret. Trust me - it isn't the coversation in Sunday school class.
How do you keep a church going based on the faith and teachings of a Polygamy founder - by cutting out those teachings that are based on that lifestyle. For such an "above everyone else" self absorbed church - that has always bothered me - like they are tithed while living a lie.
But, thats just me. I can still have contact with my God, my God loves me, and my God lets me keep my 10% to provide what my family needs.
[edit on 1-3-2010 by arizonascott]
reply posted on 1-3-2010 @ 10:25 AM by romanmel
reply to post by Yissachar1
Well said.
Don't be concerned with the haughty rantings of one who, "...much learning hath made him mad." Tithing is a sore point with those in the "church business" because they count on it for growth and prosperity.
Well said.
Don't be concerned with the haughty rantings of one who, "...much learning hath made him mad." Tithing is a sore point with those in the "church business" because they count on it for growth and prosperity.
reply posted on 1-3-2010 @ 10:30 AM by network dude
reply to post by Yissachar1
I am in complete agreement. At some point the church turned into a business and became more about building a bigger church than saving souls, or helping those less fortunate. It is the main reason I stopped going. I do some work at churches, and the big ones are the worst. They have quite a few mechanisms in place to extort the money form their parishioners. Sadly, not every church is this way. I was married by a pastor of a small non denominational church who didn't operate that way. they never asked for anything at all from us. (good thing since we were flat broke, E-3 in the military) they even provided the fellowship hall for our reception. I am far from rich, but I have stopped by and donated some money at that church since then. If I still lived in that area, I think I would attend service. I just hate a hypocrite. telling me it's for God and then using it for an elevator is an outright lie. I think God will have a sit down with these folks when their time comes.
I am in complete agreement. At some point the church turned into a business and became more about building a bigger church than saving souls, or helping those less fortunate. It is the main reason I stopped going. I do some work at churches, and the big ones are the worst. They have quite a few mechanisms in place to extort the money form their parishioners. Sadly, not every church is this way. I was married by a pastor of a small non denominational church who didn't operate that way. they never asked for anything at all from us. (good thing since we were flat broke, E-3 in the military) they even provided the fellowship hall for our reception. I am far from rich, but I have stopped by and donated some money at that church since then. If I still lived in that area, I think I would attend service. I just hate a hypocrite. telling me it's for God and then using it for an elevator is an outright lie. I think God will have a sit down with these folks when their time comes.
reply posted on 1-3-2010 @ 10:36 AM by Yissachar1
reply to post by Mykahel
Thanks for your reply friend.. I think on this we agree with many points.. I like your attitude sir... Sorry if this is short and sweet, but I am in the middle of work and will reply in full later.. Just wanted to acknowlege you bro
Thanks for your reply friend.. I think on this we agree with many points.. I like your attitude sir... Sorry if this is short and sweet, but I am in the middle of work and will reply in full later.. Just wanted to acknowlege you bro
reply posted on 1-3-2010 @ 10:51 AM by Freenrgy2
Originally posted by HooHaa
reply to post by truthseeker1984
I understand your frustration. The problem is they are decieved and confused. Dont get me wrong here, I am a christain and believe in tithes. You can tithe 10% of anything, time, money, food, cloths. It's all on the table.
I have understood an eternal truth. You will reap what you sow. Your dad is sowing money. In time depending on the seed. He will reap just that. Dont be harsh on him.
Correction, you can give any of those things. Tithes are strictly realted to the crops and livestock that were to benefit the priests. Furthermore, tithe means "the tenth" and not "a tenth". Therefore, if I had 15 sheep and were passing them under the gate, only the tenth one would have been taken as a tithe. And it wouldn't necessarily have been the best one out of the bunch. I couldn't tithe one and a half sheep.
And money was strictly forbidden as a commodity used for tithing. Only these lying charlatans and heretics would claim such a thing exists today.
Giving is what we are commanded to do and to do it with a cheerful heart. How can one be cheerful on a Sunday morning when they "tithe" 10% and then have to worry about how to put food on the table or which bill to pay.
I know, I know, there are always those stories in the church about someone in this situation who didn't know how to make ends meet, but they tithed and then had these miraculous checks for close to the exact amount for the bills they needed to pay or money for gorceries show up in their mailbox. But, for every one of these miracles, there are many others who do this and don't receive miracle checks in the mail.
I wholeheartedly believe that you should give out of your ABILITY to each according to their NEED. If you have a talent that can aid someone in NEED, then do it. That is what we are commanded to do.
I can't fully understand the heart of God, but would like to believe that He would want me to take care of my family first. Giving to a local church to help support them and their ministries should be done voluntarily without any threat of hellfire. The fact is, church is a business and they have bills to pay. But to tell people to give 10% because that is what is commanded of us is heresy.
[edit on 1-3-2010 by Freenrgy2]
reply posted on 1-3-2010 @ 10:55 AM by moocowman
reply to post by Mykahel
Why on earth does a youth need a minister may I ask ?
Why can't you just let kids alone, let them grow up and learn to think not pound them with your religious views. When they are mature then thy are in better position to make decisions and decide without prejudice what they think of the bibles.
Why do you require money for talking to young people ? Do people really pay you to talk to their kids ?
I know stacks of "youth workers" they do it for free not turn it into a business.
I suppose I should also mention that I myself am a youth minister (been at it for about a year now) and my salary is anything but impressive.
Why on earth does a youth need a minister may I ask ?
Why can't you just let kids alone, let them grow up and learn to think not pound them with your religious views. When they are mature then thy are in better position to make decisions and decide without prejudice what they think of the bibles.
Why do you require money for talking to young people ? Do people really pay you to talk to their kids ?
I know stacks of "youth workers" they do it for free not turn it into a business.
reply posted on 1-3-2010 @ 11:00 AM by Freenrgy2
Originally posted by network dude
reply to post by Yissachar1
I am in complete agreement. At some point the church turned into a business and became more about building a bigger church than saving souls, or helping those less fortunate. It is the main reason I stopped going. I do some work at churches, and the big ones are the worst. They have quite a few mechanisms in place to extort the money form their parishioners. Sadly, not every church is this way. I was married by a pastor of a small non denominational church who didn't operate that way. they never asked for anything at all from us. (good thing since we were flat broke, E-3 in the military) they even provided the fellowship hall for our reception. I am far from rich, but I have stopped by and donated some money at that church since then. If I still lived in that area, I think I would attend service. I just hate a hypocrite. telling me it's for God and then using it for an elevator is an outright lie. I think God will have a sit down with these folks when their time comes.
Here here. I know where I live there have been several 2+ million church buildings built. Some of the money may come from a general fund from the denomination HQ, but all of it is from tithing and offerings. What gets me is that these pastors will get up and tell the congregation to not only give their 10% but to go above and beyond and to "step out in faith" to give towards the building fund. And the first 'x' amount of people to give $1000 will become "partners" or "founders" and have their name engraved in a piece of brick or something...as if that matters to God.
[edit on 1-3-2010 by Freenrgy2]
reply posted on 1-3-2010 @ 11:07 AM by Freenrgy2
Originally posted by Rockstrongo37
reply to post by Yissachar1
Again I am afraid that your understanding of the Word is shallow and ignorant...indeed the church DOES need pastors and teachers.
Ephesians 4:11
It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers,
Look you dont need to give your money to the church as tithe, infact God doesnt want your "treasure" because your heart is clearly not joyful in such a gift.
2 Corinthians 9:7 (New International Version)
7Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.
So I would think that what ever you do give, its founded in your resentment over being asked to give money, and the fact that you dont seem to have a problem giving a can of corn and yet do have a problem giving a few bucks tells me clearly that money itself may be a stumbling block for you.
Honestly...the very fact that you have such difficulty giving a tithe of your income should indicate that you should dicipline yourself to give just that! Your money.
Dont be foolish and give it to some crooked preacher that clearly doesnt spend it righteously, but give it.
Finally, your effort here is leading people off the path that God intended and you will have to take real responsibility for your words before him.
This is pure heresy along with 10% of my "income."
I don't make an "income" sir, I earn a wage (i.e. I trade my time and talent for monetary resources to sustain my family).
Income = "profits" and should be used properly in the business sense. But, since the big business of the church is demanding a "tithe" from "incomes" tells me that there is no separation between the two.
The only stumbling block (if you wish to call it that) is attending a chuch where lying heresy is being spoke from the pulpit by the pastor wearing more gold jewelry than I can ever afford, dressed in a $1000 suit and driving a Lexus. But, I suppose he's just "blessed."
reply posted on 1-3-2010 @ 11:30 AM by Freenrgy2
reply to post by The_Tick
Thanks for your reply. Malachi 3 is one of the worst verses taken out of context to support the heretical teaching of the tithe.
Also, I would not support a pastor with any amount of giving if he teaches heresy like tithing or hell. If what another poster said was true about most of today's pastors knowing that tithing is false but still do it anyway, then you have to ask "why?"
Wouldn't you agre that they are no better than the lying, deceiving snake that they claim to be doing battle with?
[edit on 1-3-2010 by Freenrgy2]
Thanks for your reply. Malachi 3 is one of the worst verses taken out of context to support the heretical teaching of the tithe.
Also, I would not support a pastor with any amount of giving if he teaches heresy like tithing or hell. If what another poster said was true about most of today's pastors knowing that tithing is false but still do it anyway, then you have to ask "why?"
Wouldn't you agre that they are no better than the lying, deceiving snake that they claim to be doing battle with?
[edit on 1-3-2010 by Freenrgy2]
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