Tithing..... And the scum that rob God...

I am not a xtian but as horrid as it seems to you and I consider this. If people choose to tithe then who are we to criticise? Actually I support their right to do as they wish within their own community if everyone agrees.

T

Originally posted by Rockstrongo37


Look, you might have guess by now that i am a Pastor.

I've taken the unusual path of attending many denominations of the Christian Faith throughout my life. For a while I purposefully attended a different Christian Church nearly every week.

First and foremost I looked at how I was welcomed to each of them. The handshake test if you will. Was I greeted openly and honestly with outstretched arms, or was I judged and treated as suspect by the membership. The membership is a window into the leadership.

In some churches I was greeted with glares and looks of disapproval. People would avoid me and I'd walk out at the end having never been approached or welcomed. In others people would walk up with a smile and welcome me. I was made to feel welcome whether there for a visit or there to stay.

The next thing I looked for is how the meeting was conducted. Was it all ceremony with no substance or was it a genuine gathering of Christians to help each other grow. Some were so wrapped up in pomp and ceremony that Christianity had become a skit that was played out only on Sunday at the weekly fashion show.

Sometimes I'd purposefully walk into a church meeting in Levi's and a T-Shirt to see the reaction. Was I treated badly if I dressed poorly. Was the clothes I wore more important than me as an individual. In this test I found many churches sadly lacking. Righteousness was calculated based on financial success and the wealthier members snubbed the poorer members.

Then I'd consider the church based on how they dealt with tithe. Was it taken anonymously without individual accounting or was it done visibly to put peer pressure on the person to give.

Some churches passed the plate in full view to shame people into paying. (These were the absolute worst of the bunch. These are the ones this thread is about. These are the ones run by Con Men and crooks. These are more like a protection racket than anything else. "Give me your money or else the wrath of God will come down upon you!)

Some did an actual accounting based on income through meeting with the members, where they would actually pull out the check stubs and a calculator. Others took the tithe anonymously in sealed envelopes, with no names attached, without peer pressure; unless a receipt was needed and that was done in private (the correct way in my mind).

The most disgusting was the Pastors and Preachers who spent part of every sermon giving a tithe lecture. It was obvious money was far more important than their members spiritual and community needs.

I've never found a church better than the one I grew up in as a child. It was different in a very good way.

The leader was picked from the membership, not from a resume or a degree on the wall. Every member studied Scripture their entire lives. The leader was not paid. Not a dime. The leader was generally a personally successful person, middle aged or older. There was a hierarchy of members who had different responsibilities that they shared. Our leader had a full time job and led the church with the help of other members.

We had what amounted to a board of directors that dealt with the how the money was used and spent. None of them paid. For the most part Elder members who had been personally successful in their lives who gladly gave their time.

Instead of a paid leader who got up and preached, our meetings where a community affair. We all at one time or another participated and we shared our beliefs and thoughts from the pulpit. Even the young members where asked to participate by giving speeches and being involved.

We were a seven day a week church, not just a Sunday Fashion Show. The church was a part of all aspects of our lives. Youth meetings and activities. Scouting and life skills lessons. We would often have banquets, an outdoor get together, outings such as camping, boating and often members would share things like their mountain cabins and boats or other items.

Leadership was taught from youth. Leadership was shared from youth. Leaders were picked by prayer and long consideration. When the church leader was chosen it was often out of the blue and it was not a request, the service was required.

The money was used as it should be used. The only paid person was the Janitor / Groundskeeper who was generally a retired person supplementing their income.

We had our own welfare program, where the recipient did work at a church owned farm or any other needed work in exchange for help. We even had our own farm and cannery. We had a storehouse where those in need could go and get things like food, clothing and any other needs. We would go door to door to our infirm and elderly members to help them and make sure they were OK. We each took a random list of members to visit in pairs to keep the community together and to find out who was in need.

The building belonged to us all. We had our weddings, dances, funerals, banquets, scout meetings and many other uses there. If a member needed a meeting room or the gym as long as it was available, you could use it. All at no charge to us. I was shocked when I found out other churches charge their members to use their own buildings! The church is not separate from the people, it is the people!

We also could get medical help, counseling, help with chores and errands if sick or injured; all at no charge with nothing expected in return other than passing it along. Your car broke down and you were to poor to fix it and needed it to work, a group of neighbors showed up and fixed it. That was the way it was. We did not go to the government, we went to the church.

We, rich or poor, were asked to contribute 10% of our income. The poor received more in return than they gave, so they did not mind the tithe. They were allowed to pay for the help with labor, or replenishing what they took. If they could not, they were not looked down upon. Help was a phone call away. You got hurt or sick, the church would even pay your bills while you could not.

It was a wonderful church and yet it had a disease. It considered all other Denominations as being fake. Racism was rampant. It did not play well with the neighbors. However it was the best imitation of what the church should be I've seen.

Pastor,

All of these various Denominations and pseudo-Christian entities are the Disease of the Body. The church is not a building. It is not a Sunday Fashion Show. It is not ridiculous ceremonies or kneeling before statues or burning candles. It is not a Pope, a Pastor, a Preacher. It is not an expensive building, a monument to man, built to worship a God who gave us beauty no man could begin to build.

The church is not a Bible written in High English to withhold it from the common man. It is not control through fear and hells-fire sermons. It is as easy for a layman to understand as it is for a graduate of any Seminary.

If you personally know how much each of your members gives, you are in your position for the wrong reason. If you are a real leader, your fellow members will shower their church, which you oversee, with more money than you could ever need. If they do not, it is you who has failed them, not the other way around.

Put the tithe box out of sight where the members can give anonymously. Provide a form if they need a receipt. Walk into church in your work clothes on Sunday and see what your leadership has created. If the tithe box is full and if nobody cares how you are dressed, you can be proud of your work. If the box is empty and you are criticized for your clothes, you have built nothing.

We need to go back to the roots. Before the diseases of Catholicism, Protestants, Lutherans, Pentecostals and on and on got a foothold. Before this cancer began; when a church meeting meant fellow believers gathering in each others homes or out in the grand church of God's design, beneath the tree's in the sun. When being Christian meant emulating Christ's life.

So many churches claiming Christianity and yet so few Christians. The need for the Temples has passed and been fulfilled and yet Temples are still built. Crystal Palaces and monuments to men. People kneeling before lumps of plaster and carved stone thinking it has any meaning. People wearing clothes they can not afford to go to a building that should not have been built to show off to one another, as if it had anything to do with Christianity.

We are indeed flawed and we, including myself, need to recognize our failing and the churches failings are legion.

[edit on 3/1/2010 by Blaine91555]

And some would argue that Revelation 18:4 is Christ admonoshing us to see these things happening in today's church and "Come out of her, my people."

reply to post by Freenrgy2


In all honesty I think about that quote quite often... The church in prophecy is always called "The Woman" or "she" but the woman has become a harlot that fornicates with the world to the point that the harlot "begot harlot daughters"... Who are these "harlot daughters?? I think we all know the answer to that!

reply to post by Mykahel

Just because the Bible is referenced does not mean you have to bring up a separate issue of its credibility or lack there of in your opinion.

The discussion was in relation to tithing , tithing was being questioned in relation to the command of offerings. Offerings were made to the priesthood which was originally an Egyptian practice. So yes the creditability of the bible is relevant if not then the instruction to tithe/make offering has no credibility.

reply to post by Blaine91555


I wish I could star and flag your post sir... You said it more elegantly than I ever could.... That is how church should be... Without the racism of course but that model is what God ordained... Not the conveyor belt shopping mall we have today...

Your post made me sad actually... It must break Gods heart what we have now... Because it definitely breaks mine...

Originally posted by Yissachar1
reply to post by Blaine91555

 

I wish I could star and flag your post sir... You said it more elegantly than I ever could.... That is how church should be... Without the racism of course but that model is what God ordained... Not the conveyor belt shopping mall we have today...

Your post made me sad actually... It must break Gods heart what we have now... Because it definitely breaks mine...

Exactly. Man takes something pure and holy and makes it a sham. Christianity is not where it should be and it is because of money and unbridled greed. Meetings in homes of a few believers in a community would be far more perferable to the mega-church IMO.

My parents church took no tithing at all. The Preachers also had jobs. They would only take up a collection to pay the electric bill or to help someone that needed it. That is a great foundation to build from. I am sure we can find fault in any church that we look at or go to. But it is the search that will ultimately lead you to Christ. If someone wants money more than the word of the Lord, then they have their reward. How does that really affect me when I want a different reward. Let them enjoy their reward in this world, while I enjoy looking forward to mine in the next. I know they are naysayers in this thread that are just looking for an argument. I am tired of arguing. For the one's that know Christ, He knows you. For the one's that do not, He does not either.

reply to post by romanmel


No, absolutely not. The temple tax is NOT the tithe. The temple tax was to be paid annually under the law of Moses. The tithe for the levitical priests was something else.

Furthermore, Christ nor his followers paid the temple tax. Why? Because Jesus is THE temple.

If Christendom can't get this right, then those who blindly follow are being robbed by men.

An except from a link I posted previously for your reading.

Notice this remarkable story of the only time the temple tax came up in the ministry of Jesus. Most Christians will never hear an explanation of these verses as long as they live! These verses are highly incriminating to those who teach the tithing of money to the Church:

"And when they were come to Capernaum, they that received tribute money came to Peter, and said, Does not your master pay tribute [Greek: ‘pay the double drachma’ which was the exact amount of the annual Temple tax]?

He says, Yes [Peter was embarrassed and apparently not honest with his answer]. And when he was come into the house, Jesus prevented him [Greek: ‘prophthano,’—‘to get an earlier start of,’ ‘forestalls’ or ‘anticipated him’], saying, What do you think, Simon? Of whom do the kings of the earth take custom or tribute [taxes]? Of their own children [sons] or of strangers?

Peter said unto Him, of strangers. Jesus said unto him, THEN ARE THE CHILDREN FREE.

Notwithstanding, LEST WE SHOULD OFFEND THEM, go thou to the sea, and cast an hook, and take up the fish that first comes up; and when you have opened his mouth, thou shall find a piece of money [Gk: ‘statar’ –the exact temple tax for two]: that take and give unto them for Me and thee" (Matt. 17:24-27).

What an amazing story! What a telling teaching truth from Scriptures we have here! No wonder most Christians have never heard this Scripture explained in Church.

The reason Peter said "yes" to the tribute collector is because it was embarrassing to Him to say, "NO, my master does NOT pay temple tax." It was such a small amount of money (less than a dollar). But now Peter has to go into the house give Jesus an appraisal of what just happened. Jesus being merciful to Peter does not reprimand him for not being honest with the tribute collector, but rather, cuts him off [forestalls him] before he can speak and saves Peter the embarrassment.

The point is this: Jesus did not pay temple tax because Jesus is the King of the kingdom. And if the children are free, certainly the King Himself is free.

During the various feasts when the tithe was to be presented, the people had to go to Jerusalem to do that. So instead of carrying a whole lot of food about with them that would spoil on the journey to Jerusalem, they would sell what they had and carry money which they would then in turn buy the food when they got there and present that before the Lord...



I always sort of wondered how money came into play, but im curious about one thing...how did they not think that the food they were bringing back wouldn't spoil on the journey back home?

[edit on 1-3-2010 by Conluceo]

reply to post by Conluceo


The food they bought was for the tithe dude... They didnt bring it back with them...

reply to post by Freenrgy2

If the only thing the Jewish priests at the time of Christ accepted was sheep, goats and grain. where did they get the thirty pieces of silver to pay Judas to identify Christ to the Romans?

The temple tax was paid in 1/2 Shekel and Shekel of Tyre...see here:

www.forumancientcoins.com...

reply to post by romanmel


So, are you of the persuasion that the temple tax was the basis for taking money for the tithe? If so, then you need to go look again at what scripture says (or read what I posted above).

Say what you want about the temple tax, but it was never, ever used as a tithe. These were completely separate things. And I am not going to get into a debate about it.

What you are demonstrating is exactly the confusion and twisted version of historical and biblical teaching to fit the dogma of the church. Christ did not teach the tithe, his followers did not pay the tithe.

If you are so inclined, you can read for yourself.

Tithing is unscriptural under the new covenant

reply to post by Freenrgy2


Read my previous posts on this thread. I am in agreement with you. Tithing IS NOT a New Testament teaching. I am referring to the Jewish tradition at the time of Christ. The early followers of Christ "held all things in common." Kind of like an early form of communism.


[edit on 1-3-2010 by romanmel]

There is a verse in psalms or proverbs that specifically talks about giving your money to type of people in question. I'll read the bible for the next couple of days for that specific verse.

reply to post by romanmel


Sorry, I apologize for being a bit defensive. I, like many posting in this thread, was duped for many years. I sat in those pews and felt shame when the plate was passed and I couldn't put a buck in. I heard story after story about people tithing and getting these checks in the mail. I never got any of those. I kept banging my head into a wall thinking I wasn't a good Christian because I wasn't being rewarded monetarily. After all, isn't that what they were teaching from the pulpit? Why did the pastor have a new $20,000 Harley, gold watch and new house in one of the most expensive housing additions. Was his message that much different than the black church in the poorest part of town? Or was it that the demographics supported his lavish lifestyle through the tithe. I suspect the latter.

Originally posted by Yissachar1

And some would argue that Revelation 18:4 is Christ admonoshing us to see these things happening in today's church and "Come out of her, my people."

reply to post by Freenrgy2

 

In all honesty I think about that quote quite often... The church in prophecy is always called "The Woman" or "she" but the woman has become a harlot that fornicates with the world to the point that the harlot "begot harlot daughters"... Who are these "harlot daughters?? I think we all know the answer to that!

The Harlot Church is the Roman Catholic Church, (which is the only church in the whole world that refers to it self as the mother church.) Her daughters are ALL of the churches that follow her pagan fricative ways. Christ left the church of Acts, that is the church He will be coming back for not the church of today.

Originally posted by Yissachar1
Its witchcraft..... Buying grace.... Grace is free and cannot be bought or earned..

Oh, yeah,I just see tons of Wiccans out there collecting money from people.

No, it has nothing to do with witchcraft....It has to do with an institution, namely Christianity, that has grown way too big for its proverbial britches. They use God as a crutch to gain wealth. For the most part, I agreed with your post, until you got to the end.

Originally posted by Yissachar1
Tithing.....


Examples of what the “modern Tithe” buys;

Jets, several opulent homes, first class lifestyles etc.... Do your own search on the wealth and holding of the top pastors and evangelists and you will see that the God business seems to be recession proof... One pastor; the self proclaimed “prophetess” Juanita Bynam” even owns a gold plated Rolls Royce! A few on the list of shame that fleeces the people include;

CBN
TBN
Daystar
God TV
Creflo Dollar (aptly named)
Benni Hinn
T D Jakes (oh yes he does!)
Hillsong (revolving door christianity.. Even Darlene left!)
Kenneth Copeland (all about the money)
Peter Poppoff (still waiting for my magical mystery manna)
Rod Parsley

Added:

Robert Tilton
BET Network 1:00am-5:00am Preachers
Jimmy Swaggart
James Robinson
TBN Network
GLC Network
PTL Club
700 Club


.....and more !

Your thoughts

We DO NOT have to tithe anymore. We are to give "Gifts and Offerings" according to Yahshua the Messiah (CHrist). Tithing was a way of the old testament.

Originally posted by Yissachar1
reply to post by Totalstranger

 

Its worse than that my friend... People who are in REAL need watch these crooks on TV... Desperate people who need a miracle... So they send their last penny to these crooks... Weeks go past and still no miracle... These same people then turn from God...

They make God into a liar...

God however NEVER promised us an easy life... In fact He said that we would have a very hard life.... No servant is greater than his master, and if the master Himself had it hard... Yeshua... If He got crap, and was persecuted to the point of death... Even death on a cross... Then why are we any different??

The world hates us because it hated Him first... Dont be surprised when your life is crap..

There is a verse that could only apply to such people: Matthew 7:22-23.

When I was a teenager and first read that verse, I couldn't conceive of who Jesus was talking about, but now it is not too hard to imagine who Jesus could be talking about.

reply to post by CharlesMartel

God however NEVER promised us an easy life...

I need to put my 2 cents in on this one... This happened a few years ago at a church. I'm poor, I struggle, and life was particularly bad this one Sunday. Here I am: alone, miserable, and it was beginning to rain. The last thing the pastor said to me as he drove off in his nice, shiny car with his wife and family:

"Jesus never said it was easy"

That's about the point that I truly snapped- and decided God was one nasty SOB.