Need to talk about this...

There have been privious posts about Obama's cutting out the Orion moon return program. If you read what I said befor, you know I had a full blown crying fit. I like Obama, but thought this was a very short sided idea. In part I'm angry because we have spent over a trillon dollars on the latest Iraq adventure ( I don't place Afganistan in the same group, the Talliban was operating "terrorists are us" on that soil, and we had to go after them). But for want of a "few" billion dollars, we were throwing away our ability to settle the moon for over a generation. Who ever gets back there first, is going to be the real estate agent for the whole moon.

Why does this matter? Theres only so much you can do with robot probes. Your going to need warm bodies on the moon to make the interesting stuff happen. But now then I've thought about it, this just might work out for the best. Maby. NASA has begun to focus more (at last!) on new rocket technology and new solar systems propulsion systems. NASA does it's best work when it does not control the whole process, but does focus on the very risky effort of developing new technology. The NASA Advanced Propulsion Group has been reconstituted, after it being shut down in 2007.

Obama has made it very clear he wants private enterprise to be the ones who build the rockets, etc. I don't mean to sound to greedy, but as someone who owns stock in several US private space companies, I knew this had to happen in time. I just diden't expect it to be so damn quick. To understand how this works, its not difficult for a government entity like DARPA or US Navy Labs to make the initial break through from a technological perspective ( often when this happens, pure science also gains at no additional charge). At a point when the labs can't take it no further, you start farming the goodies out to companies like Raytheon, Lockeed, etc. I am very werry on this, but optimistic. Now its time for private industry to go into full rpm mode. If not done properly or in time, we will loose this opportunity to China, India, Russia, or the ESA.

reply to post by arbiture


I've faced the cold reality that space exploration is dead, ended, kaput.

Social and military spending has gotten to the point that not even a 'private' space program will get it off the ground beyond being a tourist industry. My own theory is that very few civilizations get beyond their own orbit due to increased social and/or military spending. We are going to be another that just eventually dies in it's on filth on it's home planet. What resources are there for a real space program will be exhausted before humanity gets it together, and realizes that we must get off this planet prior to that.

Originally posted by SpacePunk
reply to post by arbiture

 

I've faced the cold reality that space exploration is dead, ended, kaput.

Social and military spending has gotten to the point that not even a 'private' space program will get it off the ground beyond being a tourist industry. My own theory is that very few civilizations get beyond their own orbit due to increased social and/or military spending. We are going to be another that just eventually dies in it's on filth on it's home planet. What resources are there for a real space program will be exhausted before humanity gets it together, and realizes that we must get off this planet prior to that.

You might be right, I just hope your wrong. With unmanned probes NASA can do a lot of exploring. And do it at a pretty low cost. Your comments about the military in space with their own agenda and resources is spot on. When I was working at a highly classified level threw a contractor with the military, (I was working on coatings), it became quickly clear they had their own space program from top to bottom. But as far as companies having the money to get back to the moon (I will leave Mars out of it), the ability for private companies to form an association with other companies remains their greatest ability. I also believe the human race must get off this rock in reasonable numbers or we will have had it. Even though I am very cautious, and conservative by nature, I do remain hopefull. But if were not quick enough and we have a nuclear war, asteroid strike, or super-volcano befor we settle the solar system, we will once again be Earth limited for at least the next thousand years.

True space exploration and colonization will happen only when there is a new world order and united earth.

That wont happen anytime soon because people are still too primitive to trust such a system and will fight it tooth and nail instead of help in bringing it together...

perhaps we will pick it back up in all seriousness in about 100 years, once the taint of the generations living today no longer exist.

reply to post by SaturnFX


I'm not opposed to a united earth, but the people will still stratify along 'national' lines. Take the European Union, for instance. It's basically one country with the former 'countries' taking the role of states... much like the United States. But, they still insist on operating pretty much as independent countries. It's that kind of thinking that must end, and it's that kind of thinking that will eventually undo the EU sooner than later.

I don't fear a one world government as long as it's controlled through democratic means. With how economics and trade works, it would actually be beneficial in that it would allow the free flow of goods, services, and travel without current restrictions. Who knows, it might actually lead us closer to that far flung ideal of 'utopia', but it could lead us to hell, also.

Maybe the return to moon program will still continue but will be hidden from the masses.
Another Conspiracy?

I know that its hard to take the word of a person you dont know and have never met.
Especially here on ATS the web is full of people who have made claims about all sorts of things.
Nevertheless i am going to tell you what i know.
The funding for a moon mission is un-neccesary due to the already available technology.
All the moon missions represent are an avenue for controlled release of information to the public for them to tell us what they want us to know.

Back in 2001 i was living in Salisbury in wiltshire UK and there is a building limit for buildings of 40feet due to the cathedral being there, the local council want the spire of the cathedral un-obstructed by large buildings.
This also makes for extremely beautiful vistas of the city from a place called culver street car park, its a multi storey 3 level car park the top of which provides excellent views of the city.
I walked to the top deck and looked over the city to my surprise i saw a craft no doubt man made it looked like a one or two man version of the shuttle but with a lower fighter type profile, completely silent i saw it for about 5 seconds before it was lost in the darkness.
I believe it was this type of craft and their no doubt larger carriers that gary mckinnon stumbled across the crew lists for.

All that the denial of the moon missions mean is that the information that they would have provided to the public is no longer needed in the ongoing scam of making us believe that the shuttle missions and the space station are the only human presences in space.

What i would like to know is, is it because there is no need to tell us anything because something is going to happen that will negate anymore human interest in the idea, or, Disclosure is something that is really going to happen and maintenance of the scam is no longer required.

I attest on my very soul that what i have said is the truth.

Originally posted by SaturnFX
True space exploration and colonization will happen only when there is a new world order and united earth.

That wont happen anytime soon because people are still too primitive to trust such a system and will fight it tooth and nail instead of help in bringing it together...

perhaps we will pick it back up in all seriousness in about 100 years, once the taint of the generations living today no longer exist.

No doubt you have heard the phrase "under new management"? Just as we would be united (or so it goes) by an invasian by an alien species, when we get back to the moon, it can't be dog eat dog. The environment, or should I say lack there of, will require us to co-operate. I don't see a world government happening on Earth with out a major psycic change. That can happen with the traditional motivations of change. A commen threat or a commen cause. Today we have numerous examples of "failed states", like Somalia, Zimbabre, etc. There is no rule of law there. Whole peoples are being murdered, as in Somalia.

It would be great if a UN type body had the capacity to take these nations over. Many might fear the so called NWO. In any nation that has a working government, there not the problem. Today numerous nations on the planet have the military/logistic capacity to just go in to Somalia, and take over. With out major intervention, Somalia will remain the land of religous and racial extermination. So much can be done, yet so many nations lack the balls to do so. A united planet must by its nature not neglect the poorest of the poor. I think breaking people out of their limited mindset that defines us by race or religion, or politics, will only happen when we see a commen goal. Space exploration is the glue that binds us.

I think they're throwing away a major trump card here.

Nothing brings Americans together like exploration and discovery. We're only a few generations past the westward expansion, and I think the pioneer spirit is still a major part of the collective American personality. Its in our blood.

In a time of such political and social division, I don't think there is anything that we could all get together behind like putting a man on Mars or a permanent installation on the moon.

They could pass whatever laws they wanted to if the public was waiting in anticipation for the next sitrep from the Mars mission.

No matter how much other stuff you screwed up, you'd always be known as the President who put a man on Mars.

Originally posted by WhiteOneActual
I think they're throwing away a major trump card here.

Nothing brings Americans together like exploration and discovery. We're only a few generations past the westward expansion, and I think the pioneer spirit is still a major part of the collective American personality. Its in our blood.

In a time of such political and social division, I don't think there is anything that we could all get together behind like putting a man on Mars or a permanent installation on the moon.

They could pass whatever laws they wanted to if the public was waiting in anticipation for the next sitrep from the Mars mission.

I would agree with you, except we can chose between less money and no money at all. NASA does some things well, other things and its cumbersome and awkward. Near the end of that progress thats where you want private enterprise to step into the breech.

No matter how much other stuff you screwed up, you'd always be known as the President who put a man on Mars.

Originally posted by WhiteOneActual
I think they're throwing away a major trump card here.

Nothing brings Americans together like exploration and discovery. We're only a few generations past the westward expansion, and I think the pioneer spirit is still a major part of the collective American personality. Its in our blood.

In a time of such political and social division, I don't think there is anything that we could all get together behind like putting a man on Mars or a permanent installation on the moon.

They could pass whatever laws they wanted to if the public was waiting in anticipation for the next sitrep from the Mars mission.

No matter how much other stuff you screwed up, you'd always be known as the President who put a man on Mars.

While I agree with most of your views, having a nation spending a gizillion dollars just for bragging rights is just plain nuts. Space development is I believe critical to human development. Thats because there is a financial componant that did not exist befor, such as the need to beat the Russians to the moon the first time. And while I would like to see people on Mars as an extension of the human community, I'm willing to wait untill we have more advanced technology, so the first people who get to the moon (again) will after a decade or two, shoot for Mars will have a huge ability they can get back home. To go to Mars today would most likely cost 500 billion dollers. We know that NASA is working on advanced radio frequency MHD drives startling in their ability to get us to Mars in 39 days, not 6 months.

Talk about a quantum leap... We need to get back to our moon and understand what it really takes to live in space. Being on the moon offers a multitude of indulgences. The moon is pretty close to us, so if all hell broke lose, its not difficult to consider a rescue mission. After all, if you don't have a rescue protacol, who in their right mind would want to get involved in any serious activity? Truth is I would go in a heart beat, rescue be damed. Does that make me a visionary, or fool. I have no doubt time will tell.