9/11 Truth Movement Gaining Scientific Credibility

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posted on Mar, 1 2010 @ 02:30 AM
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reply to post by _BoneZ_
 


Sorry, but there's plenty of people that say they saw molten steel without knowing WHICH metal it was.

I have shown that people claim to know what things are ALL the time, with no proof.

In this thread alone, many Truther claims were said to be UNTRUE, by another Truther.

Sorry if you're youtube video isn't proof to me,.

The thing is though, that even if there were some molten steel, it doesn't mean anything.

Blacksmiths easily worj with cast iron, which is much harder than steel.

At best it's more extremely questionable and meaningless information that isn't in itself proof of anything other than ... molten steel.... at best.



posted on Mar, 1 2010 @ 03:33 AM
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reply to post by seethelight
 



Give up your % of engineers argument, already - it holds absolutely NO value.

You're making a huge assumption here, that EVERY (or, even most) even cares or even has enough time to investigate - like, we do - the events of that day.

Sadly, many people have moved on, and/or, haven't given a thought as to the sinister reasons behind such an event, and continue to live in the dark.

Believe it or not, some engineers are overworked, and don't have the time or desire (or even recognizes the plausibility) to even think about looking into it. Most of them probably have families, and kids, extracurricular activities, lawn work... hell, many of them may be OUT of work, given this economy...

Bottom line - assuming that every person who has ever gotten an engineering degree, has taken the time to do an in depth analysis of the 9/11 catastrophe is a HUGE inference, and that's exactly what you are doing.

In fact, the ONLY way to accurately measure exactly what you're trying to prove is to find the entire subset (remember Venn Diagrams) of engineers that HAVE actually taken the time in the 'universe' of engineers and then go from there - but, this is impossible. So, why don't you at least start by pointing all of us to the 1,000-plus engineers who have stood in direct opposition to the 911AEtruth people? Surely, a similar site exists, no?



posted on Mar, 1 2010 @ 08:49 AM
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Originally posted by seethelight
Sorry, but there's plenty of people that say they saw molten steel without knowing WHICH metal it was.

Sorry if you're youtube video isn't proof to me,

Um, they show the actual pieces of molten steel. If the actual pieces along with the witness testimony isn't enough for you, then the only other conclusion that can be drawn is that you're either too blinded by denial or you're just here to troll regardless of evidence.



Originally posted by seethelight
The thing is though, that even if there were some molten steel, it doesn't mean anything.

This right here shows your level of intelligence. Molten steel does absolutely mean something. It means there was some other form of incendiary/accelerant in those buildings because jet fuel, aka kerosene, and normal office fires cannot melt steel, period.



posted on Mar, 1 2010 @ 09:00 AM
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reply to post by SquirrelNutz
 


Here's why my argument is valid.

People claim that a specific number, 1000, engineers, is meaningful.

They trumpet this number all over the internet.

They even hold a press conference to celebrate the meaningfulness of this number.

However, this number doesn't exist in a vacuum. This number is absolutely relative to the whole number of the group.

But even if you wanna play the, "I'm in denial," game that some of you faithers are obsessed with, here's another measure.

If there were ANY EVIDENCE of a POPULAR MOVEMENT int he ENGINEERING COMMUNITY you truthers would've picked up on it.

The fact is, there is no evidence at all of anything, but the tiniest percentage of engineers that are willing to come forward and state they question the OS.

No large numbers of engineers questioning it in the media, no thousands of engineers starting petitions online, nothing.


Without context numbers can mean ANYTHING.


People use numbers to manipulate others all the time.

You have to ask, is 1000 engineers a sign that the group, engineers, is serious about the conspiracy.

This isn't just 1000 people, but 1000 professionals (thus the entire purpose of the group).

So yes, the number is absolutely important.

And you guys know that, which is why you push back sooo hard every time it's mentioned.

This is a FRINGE movement, within the engineering community.

That is plain to see.



posted on Mar, 1 2010 @ 09:04 AM
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reply to post by _BoneZ_
 


Sorry mate, but as you have been told repeatedly, people use all sorts of things to melt steel, like charcoal.

Now, if for some reason you missed that in the past, you know it now.

Blacksmiths were melting steel well before there were passenger jets.

It doesn't take super technology to do it.

And yes, you can claim that you heard someone say they saw molten steel, hell, you can even show me a single picture of it, but that's not proof of anything.

Ask a blacksmith.



posted on Mar, 1 2010 @ 09:06 AM
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Originally posted by seethelight

Sorry mate, but as you have been told repeatedly, people use all sorts of things to melt steel, like charcoal.

Now, if for some reason you missed that in the past, you know it now.

Blacksmiths were melting steel well before there were passenger jets.

It doesn't take super technology to do it.

And yes, you can claim that you heard someone say they saw molten steel, hell, you can even show me a single picture of it, but that's not proof of anything.

Ask a blacksmith.


Does that mean my Barb BQ is going to melt when I turn it on


O my , thats for your heads up



posted on Mar, 1 2010 @ 09:09 AM
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Originally posted by seethelight

Here's why my argument is valid.

People claim that a specific number, 1000, engineers, is meaningful.

They trumpet this number all over the internet.



Its 1000 + sir, its a growing number.

You haven't made a valid arguement in ANY of your postings.

You think your OPINION is fact ??




posted on Mar, 1 2010 @ 09:18 AM
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reply to post by Sean48
 


hahahaha... 1000+12000=1%

And by the way the OP's point was that 1000 engineers made the idea of some 9/11 theory credible, which it obviously doesn't.


You faithers can't even decide if there were actually planes on 9/11.

I have read so many un-credible things:

New secret weapons - no proof given or needed
Unheard of "top down" demolitions
Remote controlled planes


And even a truther claiming that 9 was 9% of 3400.


Calling 1000 a meaningful percentage of 1.3 million isn't credible either.



posted on Mar, 1 2010 @ 09:20 AM
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reply to post by EarthCitizen07
 


The POD on the planes was not NECESSARY -- these planes can already be steered by Remote Control -- and we already have the head of the FAA Security destroying the Radar Tape Records.

Didn't they also destroy the conversation that a flight attendant had with Security -- showing that the FAA knew (or at least the guy who admitted destroying the tapes according to other FAA security people), a half hour before the plane took off that it was hijacked?

>> NO theory needs to be put forth to explain 9/11 -- the GOVERNMENT has to prove it's theory -- which it has changed as new evidence comes forward.

And if we look back at Operation Northwoods -- which apologists explain as "they draw up plans to invade Canada" -- they don't have plans with operational approval that get submitted and rejected by the President. It's only through the JFK assassination committee that we know about that one; Commit false flag terrorist ATTACKS against the USA, and blame it on Cuba, getting citizen support to invade for a regime change. They talked about REMOTE CONTROL PLANES in the late 60's -- it is a no-brainer today.

Regardless of if drones, planes or torpedoes flew into the WTC and Pentagon -- it's a red herring. We have a few video-tapes of Bin Laden taking credit, but experts have proven them all fakes. We have a briefcase from the FBI with all the evidence -- found right after the attack, but no explanation why the attack was not halted if someone had been gathering this evidence. Rental vehicles with pilot training manuals -- right, and no "NOTE" saying; "Hey, Arabic speaking people DID THIS, signed, Terrorists Mom."

Bin Laden, was a CIA asset against the Russians, and then, suddenly, he is enemy #1, according to the Bush Administration, over putting a gas pipeline in Afghanistan that was a UNOCAL meeting in Texas. All the EVIDENCE or REASON for the alleged fallout with the US and Al Qaeda, comes from the CIA and BushCo. And when we say "CIA" it means a FACTION, because Brewster Jennings, was a CIA operation that was designed to monitor ACUAL Arab oil dealings and WMD proliferation. They prevented cases of VX nerve gas from entering some countries packed in boxes labeled; "Carlysle Group." So now we know why Rumsfeld was so certain we'd find WMDs... So the same group that outs and probably massacres a whole bunch of CIA operatives, is the same group that is the soul source for "Al Qaeda is the enemy that did this attack." And the whole stage show is littered with failed attempts at making the connection.

The ONLY actual evidence connecting Al Qaeda and 9/11 is the say-so of Dick Cheney and Bush administration (hard to swallow right now), and Khalid Sheik Mohammed, who's been waterboarded more times than Condi has gotten perms and maybe even designer shoes. The mastermind who outwitted 16 intelligence agencies, got NORAD confused enough to stand down, made all the videocameras malfunction on the WTC and Pentagon, confiscated tapes from half a dozen businesses with cameras pointed at that area, and trained unqualified pilots well enough to do a 180 flip into the point on the building that stored records pertinent to the later investigation. Nice Miracles buddy!

The super-duper mastermind, also managed to remove the flight manifests -- but still, there is a FAX sent from the Government prosecutors at his first hearing, that apparently has no original copy to be submitted as EVIDENCE, so the Super-duper Sheik's dog must have been trained to go eat it.

I don't think people have the attention span to sit down, and go through the 1000 pages it would take me to cover ALL the incredible coincidences and intelligence failures and the lack of following STANDARD PROTOCOLS that had to occur for 911 to be Allah's success -- just put it down to a miracle. God must hate us Christians, because there are people violating farm animals in the Red States, and one of them is a Republican Fund-raiser who said so on a radio show "you just get kind of lonely out on the farm ... one thing leads to another and..."



posted on Mar, 1 2010 @ 09:26 AM
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let me clear the air here people

if there are people here trying to DEFEND the government, you have some mental disorder for sure and I recommend you a doctor

why?
simply because until today there were not enough proofs to the official history, a lot of holes, so, you cant accept it as the truth because its not accepted by science

to believe in the official history is the same as believing in GOD, so, its an act of FAITH, you cant judge or bash people that try to find evidences to what happened that day

let me say again, there are no enough proofs, so, its not wrong to question things, thats why we have a freaking brain, to question, otherwise just stop coming to this board ...



posted on Mar, 1 2010 @ 09:34 AM
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Originally posted by seethelight
Sorry mate, but as you have been told repeatedly, people use all sorts of things to melt steel, like charcoal.

Yeah, except you won't find those things in a Class-A building. Keep trying.



Originally posted by seethelight
Blacksmiths were melting steel well before there were passenger jets.

They didn't use steel in those days, they used iron and they used furnaces to melt the iron. A furnace = controlled conditions, not an open office fire in a Class-A building where the furniture, etc., is fire-resistant.



Originally posted by seethelight
And yes, you can claim that you heard someone say they saw molten steel, hell, you can even show me a single picture of it, but that's not proof of anything.

Um, there were many people in that video that talked about the molten steel and there was more than one piece shown. You're denying the evidence and calling the witnesses liars. So, basically you're doing nothing but trolling here as I keep suspecting.




[edit on 1-3-2010 by _BoneZ_]



posted on Mar, 1 2010 @ 09:37 AM
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Originally posted by seethelight
Unheard of "top down" demolitions

Only unheard of to someone like yourself that has done zero research. Google top-down demolitions. Hell, there are even videos of top-down demolitions on Youtube. You seriously need to stop trolling and do some real research and stop denying the evidence.

You really must not know how foolish you make yourself look with every single unresearched and incorrect post you make.




[edit on 1-3-2010 by _BoneZ_]



posted on Mar, 1 2010 @ 09:56 AM
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I was blissfully unaware of the truth movement until 4th Q 07 when it became evident the bankers and politicians had blown up the worlds' economy and they forced me to start looking at the world differently.

I really would prefer to believe the "official" story because the alternative is so nefarious I can't sleep. Unfortunately, I find the evidence presented by truthers to be far more compelling than that provided by NIST.

My opinion is that a new investigation should be opened if for no other reason to determine why the US has become the most incompetent nation on the planet:

Buildings that were designed specifically to take multiple impacts from airplanes failed to do so. Incompetent architects, engineers and construction...

Where one wing of the Pentagon had been specifically reinforced against attacks, a passenger plane was able to compromise several rings - again incompetent engineering/construction...

A nation that spends more than the rest of the planet combined on defense and intel failed to defend against or identify in a timely fashion imminent threat - incompetentcy is evident once again.

From what should be one of the most heavily surveilled buildings on earth not one photograph of a plane hitting the building was produced. The only viable picture presented to date came from a neighboring gas station... government surveillance fail.

September 10, 2001 an announcement that 2.3 trillion is unaccounted for (40% of the national debt at that time). Major accounting and administrative incompetence.

In a country that has been inundated with cop shows for decades and has trained every Joe 6pack as a novice forensic investigator, our nations finest removed and destroyed almost all of the forensic evidence at the largest crime scene in history... investigative incompetence.

Again, with the worlds' largest defense budget, with combatant planes in the air for over an hour not one jet was scrambled to intercept... military incompetence.

While I don't WANT to believe what the truth movement presents, I'm not so sure I wouldn't rather believe that than to believe we as a nation are as incompetent as the official story presents.



posted on Mar, 1 2010 @ 09:56 AM
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reply to post by _BoneZ_
 


you mean that one video that's been hilariously debunked?

Or the hundreds of conspiracy sites pointing to it?

Find proof of demolition companies doing "top down demolitions" on skyscraper like buildings.

More echo-chamber bull#.



posted on Mar, 1 2010 @ 10:05 AM
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reply to post by _BoneZ_
 


Riiight!

So, nothing in the two 100 storey building would burn as hot as charcoal.

Not, for instance, transformers, or the massive backup power cells...?

And I'm pretty sure the thosands of working blacksmiths in the world would be suprised to hear that you think their profession as something that only happened in "those days".

And btw., would you be able to tell, just by looking, what molten metal you were looking at?

Really?

I think that there was so much intact steel (including MANY intact girders) that people assumed anything molten was molten steel.

You're vouching for this assumption based on ONE piece of steel.

Nice logic there.



posted on Mar, 1 2010 @ 10:08 AM
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Seethelight, did they make it happen on purpose?

abcnews.go.com...


the president received 40 warnings face to face from the director of central intelligence that a major al-Qaeda attack was going to take place and that the president did not have a meeting on the subject. She admitted that she didnt convene the Cabinet.

some of the 9/11 Commissioners pointed out, this was in marked contrast to the way the government operated in December of 1999, when it had similar information and it successfully thwarted attacks.


www.foxnews.com...


Fox News April 11, 2004:
Bush Claims "Bin Laden Determined to Attack in US" Memo Said Nothing about an Attack

The complete text of the PDB was released the day before and in fact the PDB does very clearly discuss an imminent attack

it says that FBI information indicates patterns of suspicious activity in this country consistent with preparations for hijackings

And it discusses a call to a US embassy saying that a group of bin Laden supporters was in the US planning attacks with explosives



more warnings:
www.historycommons.org...:_specific_cases


en.wikipedia.org...


Anthony Shaffer briefed Dr. Zelikow about the fact that when he and others involved in ABLE DANGER decided they should share this information with the FBI, that they were blocked from doing so by lawyers in SOCOM over concerns over legality and by the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) senior leadership from sharing with SOCOM the most current intelligence information on Al Qaeda.



www.antiwar.com...
news.bbc.co.uk...


According to German newspapers, the Mossad gives the CIA a list of 19 terrorists living in the US and say that they appear to be planning to carry out an attack in the near future. It is unknown if these are the 19 9/11 hijackers or if the number is a coincidence. However, four names on the list are known, and these four will be 9/11 hijackers: Nawaf Alhazmi, Khalid Almihdhar, Marwan Alshehhi, and Mohamed Atta.



www.nytimes.com...


According to Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak, Egyptian intelligence warns American officials that bin Laden’s network is in the advanced stages of executing a significant operation against an American target, probably within the US. [Associated Press, 12/7/2001; New York Times, 6/4/2002] He says he learned this information from an agent working inside al-Qaeda. US officials will deny receiving any such warning from Egypt.




some of the 9/11 Commissioners pointed out, this was in marked contrast to the way the government operated in December of 1999, when it had similar information and it successfully thwarted attacks.



[edit on 1-3-2010 by conar]



posted on Mar, 1 2010 @ 10:10 AM
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reply to post by seethelight
 


You restate points you made, that have been totally torn apart -- and again, you make a point about THEORIES, as if that PROVES the THEORY from a corrupt government that YOU take on faith.

It doesn't matter how many theories of the Earth there are -- it does not PROVE that the Earth is Flat -- do you not get that bit about SCIENCE, ENGINEERING and EVIDENCE? YOU support the Bush theory that Al Qaeda flew 4 planes (and one into the ground with parts over a mile away), and destroyed 4 targets. And all the intelligence failures and missing evidence -- that's just what happens in these sorts of things.

"New secret weapon" -- so what? You think SECRET means we would have any knowledge of it? It's like the SST Blackbird moving at Mock 5 into a target in 1968 -- anyone saying such a thing, would be a kook in your book.

But your Flat Earth theory, requires things that have never happened before, to happen with 3 buildings from two planes and that building 7 had a conventional design.

Once again, there are NOT 1,000 engineers who signed their name to a PRO-Bush Theory of pancake collapse - so your point about 1,000 or 10,000 is moot. 1 Engineer can make a point and anyone disagreeing has to attack their MATH and MODEL -- not the number of engineers. If you got a gang of a million monkeys -- what does that prove? You claim 1.3 million engineers on the planet -- that's great. So they've all investigated the data from the crime scene and personally sent you their professional opinions -- even the ones repairing radios?

"Top down demolition" Do I need to give you all the links on how this is THE STANDARD WAY FOR BRINGING DOWN SKYSCRAPERS? It's easier to pull down a structure from the bottom, but when the building is taller than 10 city blocks --- FALLING OVER is an issue.

Your claims of "no proof" are just more weak sauce. It's not like we haven't had a few million links over the years put on topics. None of the ADULTS debating this on this website, are unfamiliar with the consensus of events are, and basic things we KNOW happened. There are differing theories -- but I'm not wasting my time with MORE LINKS when you don't read them, nor when you come here making claims that "planes cannot be remote controlled." A 777 can take off an LAND without the pilot being awake -- and this is something that perhaps the MILLION AND ONE pilots are aware of -- there might be more -- I'm just throwing out an impressive number to show consensus.

74.125.47.132...:_baSVq25hDYJ:fsims.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgOrders.nsf/key/Order%25208400.14+FAA+remo te+controlling+a+plane+landing&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=safari" target="_blank" class="postlink">Took me 5 seconds to find the FAA documentation -- why can't you just GOOGLE and quit wasting my time? For some reason it's only in the google cache -- but I'm sure there are other sources if I wasted 10 more seconds.

Remote Plane Conspiracy? What, because 2 million monkeys think we are living in the 15th Century?


>> What is really sad, is we've got some GOOD EVIDENCE for a conspiracy-- not PROOF, because, bad guys in CHARGE of investigations, rarely leave any evidence and they destroy the crime scene, and weak evidence to support the "just some guys with box cutters making strange security failures happen and it was really convenient for our plan to invade Iraq that we drew up before the attack" -- so, if YOU are right, MORE investigation will prove the case, and if WE are right -- a huge security threat of a group of people working against the interests of the PEOPLE of the United States will be uncovered -- people who have access to nuclear weapons.

The NeoCons are possibly the greatest threat to America we have every faced -- far more dangerous than the Japanese, Italy and the Germans in WW II, because they OWN our weapons and they are connected to the Fed and World Banks.

And people like you, are so damn comfortable with the end of America, that you think we can't survive a hearing. Our Democracy can't survive a few open trials because it might embarrass a known war Criminal. Why is "collateral damage" so acceptable when our military invades other countries, but not acceptable when it concerns just embarrassing a sacred cow who MIGHT be plotting our downfall?

So the 9/11 Commission is now a bunch of Conspiracy theorists as well? LINK If you don't like that source, check out Amazon.com for the half dozen books by the Committee members calling the investigation a white-wash.


Don't bother with a response -- you've had more than enough chances to say something meaningful.



posted on Mar, 1 2010 @ 10:14 AM
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Originally posted by seethelight
reply to post by BoneZ
 


you mean that one video that's been hilariously debunked?

Or the hundreds of conspiracy sites pointing to it?

Find proof of demolition companies doing "top down demolitions" on skyscraper like buildings.

More echo-chamber bull#.

Are you ignoring me? Jesus its hard to call you seethelight! I think the only light you have ever seen is the 60watt bulb above your head, and I bet its a naked bulb hanging on a wire!



posted on Mar, 1 2010 @ 10:16 AM
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reply to post by DCDAVECLARKE
 


Everyone should just put that troll on "ignore" and then he won't be able to type to anybody but himself.

He's now on my ignore list.





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