Socialism is destroying Greece, Spain, Italy, Venezuela and America, to name a few, page 6


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ATS Members have flagged this thread 7 times


reply posted on 3-5-2010 @ 05:22 PM by gdeed
Originally posted by Someone336
reply to post by gdeed


Wow, you completely missed the point of my post, and I imagine you didn't read my link.



How does the Indian Coffee House, Kantega, the Mondragón Cooperative Corporation, Suma Wholefoods, the Kibbutz of yesteryear, AK Press, John Lewis Partnership, C4 Tech & Design, etc, mesh with you idea that only capitalism generates incentives?

And no dodging the question this time please.

[edit on 3-5-2010 by Someone336]


The problem I see with cooperatives is that everyone will think they are working more than the next guy/gal. The office workers and the management will be suspect by those doing the dirty and hard labor jobs. Many cooperatives don't do well in the long run. I was once involved with a cooperative, it went bankrupt and I lost my investment.


reply posted on 4-5-2010 @ 04:59 PM by MrXYZ
reply to post by gdeed


So are you saying the mortgage crisis and the financial collapse of Wall Street isn't responsible for the collapse of those countries who failed? You think a free market economy would have prevented the collapse?

If the answer is yes, I assume you never had a proper course in economics, finance and investment

But sure, continue to blame "socialism" and ignore the huge elephant in the room


reply posted on 4-5-2010 @ 08:14 PM by MrXYZ
reply to post by gdeed


If you think this whole crisis only happened because of actions as of 2006, you are delusional.

But tell me good Sir, in what way did socialism create this financial crisis? I'm curious...


reply posted on 4-5-2010 @ 08:38 PM by js331975
Originally posted by rogerstigers
Originally posted by concernedcitizan
We can only look at history and conclude that societies that have called themselves socialist have all failed, and societies calling themselves capitalist have escaped mass poverty and generated wealth. White armchair academics are lucky, because they have the exclusive right of denying this, while enjoying freedoms and wealth billions of people in this world would be ready to kill for. Maybe one day, when someone points a gun to their head and takes their money away, they'll understand what makes the world go 'round.


It's apples and oranges to a degree. Socialist style governments only work when a strong Capitalist style economy exists to feed it. Socialism is not a kind of economy, it is a form of government, or more accurately, a style of government policy making. We can have socialist programs (nowadays called progressive or populist) in a representative democracy (aka a Republic).

One important thing to remember when discussion these fine points of government is that we have the same kind of government that the USSR had.. a Republic. United Soviet Socialists Republic. From what I can tell, there are three aspects of a country:

1) Government Form (Republic, Monarchy, Dictator, etc.)
2) Government Style (Communist, Facism, Plutarchy, Oligarchy)
3) Economic (Socialist, Free Trade, Capitalist)

I'm sure that list needs refinement, but I think that covers the general idea.


Yes, but in the Soviet Union you could get imprisoned and/or shot for speaking against the Governing body. Here you can not.

As long as there is personal freedom that does not restrict others personal freedoms we will not be like the Soviet Union.

As long as we can Vote, Peacefully Protest, and drive/fly/train to Washington DC and Riot we will be OK.


reply posted on 4-5-2010 @ 10:17 PM by gdeed
Originally posted by MrXYZ
reply to post by gdeed


If you think this whole crisis only happened because of actions as of 2006, you are delusional.


Yeah I know get in line and blame the bush dude, the leftwing mantra that explains everything for the lefties.

But tell me good Sir, in what way did socialism create this financial crisis? I'm curious...


Socialism alows for passing the buck, the captialists did it. Works every time and they don't have to do anything right when they have a handy dandy scape goat to take the fall when their folly screws things up. They could blame the jews and the banks too. Oh, they already do. Sheeple will believe anything.


reply posted on 5-5-2010 @ 12:29 AM by MrXYZ
reply to post by gdeed


Wow, so much disinformation I don't know where to begin.

First of all, the economy collapsed because large investment companies (like Goldman Sachs) packaged bad investments, and mislabeled them as good investments. They were able to do that because those packages are so complicated that they had to explain them to the people who rate them (Fanny & Co). Guess what, if you are the one explaining the product, and the rating agencies do a bad job at checking your figures...you'll get BAD investments (as in suuuuper risky) labeled as GOOD investments (safe).

So a ton of governments and large banks bought those horrible investments, thinking it's all safe because of the good ratings. All those packages were secured by mortgage loans, so in theory, things should have been safe.

However, since the Reagen years those big investment companies battled with government over less regulation...and sloooowly got their way. That mean that it was ridiculously easy to get a loan, and in many cases, there were no background checks whatsoever. Sooooo, people with a crap income applied for loans that they could never repay. Exactly the loans that should function as underlying security of those multi-billion dollar derivatives.

Guess what happened when people started foreclosing on their mortgage loans...yup, the value of the packaged derivatives collapsed. Many many governments as well as a ton of banks and private people invested in those bad derivatives...and when they lost their value, those companies were in serious financial trouble. Remember Lehman, remember AIG, remember Bear Sterns?

All this caused the companies, the economy as a whole, and entire governments to tumble into a crisis.

It has NOTHING to do with socialism. If anything, less regulation and oversight lead to those problems. The rating agencies didn't do their job! How do we know that? We know because SOME PEOPLE did their research and bet against those bad derivatives...one of them is Goldman Sachs. Yes, you heard right. They sold governments and other companies those bad derivatives, and at the same time, bet that those derivatives would be worthless. They were able to do that because they KNEW the underlying securities were bad.



Here's a cartoon summary for you in case my written explanation was too hard.

Anyway, as you can see, the crisis has absolutely NOTHING to do with socialism or the what kind of government we had at the time or before the crisis. Dubai was hit severely due to those bad investments (theocracy), so was Russia, the US, Greece, Portugal, Iceland, and a few others. The crash of the derivatives they invested in lead to serious cash flow problems, making doing business in the future hard.

That's "fine" (obv not great) if it's a company...but if it's a bank that lost so much money, they won't be able to hand out loans, or get short-term loans for themselves. If they can't lend, no investment happens, and the economy becomes stagnant or shows even signs of a recession.

So yeah, if you wanna talk about the reasons why this crisis happened, by all means. But please keep an open mind and don't let your political viewpoint cloud your judgment...because judging from your posts, you just repeat whatever FOX "News" tells you (or Palin) instead of analyzing or thinking for yourself.

And just fyi, I did NOT like the bailouts. I think that's only a short term fix that doesn't solve anything. Doesn't change anything regarding the causes of this crash though!


reply posted on 5-5-2010 @ 01:26 PM by MrXYZ
reply to post by gdeed


And so you keep on holding on to your "socialism caused the crisis" statement...without giving a single explanation HOW socialism is exactly responsible. You're just brabbling keywords without sense.

Tell me, how did socialism make all those financial institutions and governments go bankrupt? You keep on saying "my explanation" is left wing propaganda...but you aren't even giving an explanation, you're just saying 2-3 keywords. That's like saying "sunshine" when someone asks you for the cause of HIV...it's stupid.

If you don't wanna believe me, believe Michael Lewis, the guy worked for the same institutions we can't blame according to you...and guess what, he blames them

But I guess someone who's worked for Solomon Bros for years has less experience in finance than you

His book going over causes for the crisis...all with sources...yes I read it, it's good and well researched.

In the end, he comes to the same conclusion that I've stated...just that he got there before me.

If you can't accept the opinion of a renowned economist and former investment banker...please feel free to enlighten us how exactly "socialism" made governments and companies lose all that money. No "it was all the left wing nuts" bull#...REAL reasons, REAL analysis, not your partisan bull#.


reply posted on 6-5-2010 @ 12:44 PM by MrXYZ
reply to post by pexx421

I think this thread shows a major problem in US politics. The right and left are so divided, it doesn't matter which problem needs to be fixed, they're unable to look at stuff objectively.

If Democrats come up with a plan, the right shouts "communism, socialism", and if the Reps come up with something, the left shouts "corporate puppets, biggots". And the TP stands on the sidelines and has been ruined since Palin took control.

You know you got a problem if people parrott political slogans that make no sense instead of thinking for themeseleves. The OP claims he gave enough proof in this thread, but not a single thing he wrote proves that socialism was the cause. He can't prove it because economists already KNOW what happened...it's not a secret, not a conspiracy. Go to uni and they'll teach you, read financial newspapers, and you'll see.

Hell, economists of both parties (not the regular party members) agree that it was the subprime and mortgage backed securities market as well as ridiculously high investment gearing that caused this crisis. They don't agree with how to solve this issue...but that's another story.

Fact is, if you're seriously believing anything the left (or the right) did, that alone lead to the financial collapse...YOU ARE BLIND AND NOTHING BUT A PARTISAN PUPPET!! Seriously, disagree over ways to fix the economy by all means, but fighting over the cause when the cause has long been explained all over the news, educational journals, dissertations (go to EmeraldInsight and download the latest finance dissertation of a Harvard guy, a lot of them treat the crisis), TV shows, etc.

Have to give the parties (both parties) credit though, it's impressive to be able to completely brainwash someone and make him stop thing for himself. It's great of course cause he'll just parrot whatever you teach him, bull#

Let's see what could be considered socialism in the US:

- food stamps
- highschool
- future healthcare
- roads and public infrastructure

If you seriously believe any of the above expenditures caused the financial crisis you are BLIND!! None of it costs as much as the companies lost due to the crisis!! So it can't be responsible.

Also, if it's socialism, only socialist countries should be hit. Why are some (according to your standards) socialist countries just fine...how bout Switzerland? They're not horribly suffering due to the ciris, all my firends kept their jobs, salary levels are higher than everywhere else in the world, and yet we receive a free education including uni ($800/semester), hand out narcotics to addicts if they agree to join a plan to quit, put the homeless in socialist housing (OMGOMGOMG), and so on.

The fact alone that a lot of socialist countries are fine, should teach you that socialism can't be the cause. But I have a feeling you're just gonna go all "lalalalala, I can't heeeeeeear you...SOCIALISM, SOCIALISM, SOCIALISM!!" on me instead of actually bringing up concrete evidence for once. And no, you haven't done so in this thread, I read the whole damn thing.

You're falling victim to the politicians' "negative association" technique. They mention something bad that's is proven to be bad (economic crisis), and then try to link it to something else THEY believe is bad, but that has nothing to do with the actual problem they link it to.

[edit on 6-5-2010 by MrXYZ]


reply posted on 7-5-2010 @ 01:45 AM by MrXYZ
reply to post by Thirty_Foot_Smurf


Oh, another one who claims socialism is the cause of the crisis without showing any proof...how does it feel to be a puppet who shouts political buzz words instead of thinking for yourself?


reply posted on 7-5-2010 @ 01:59 AM by Thirty_Foot_Smurf
Originally posted by MrXYZ
reply to post by Thirty_Foot_Smurf


Oh, another one who claims socialism is the cause of the crisis without showing any proof...how does it feel to be a puppet who shouts political buzz words instead of thinking for yourself?


Uh....Greece is the proof. Turn on the TV guy.

After that will be the EU. Again...Turn on the TV

Greece's days of borrowing to pay for social programs have come to an end. Socialism is a self consuming top heavy system that will always always fail in the end. Capitalism is a self correcting system that has ebbs and flows, ups and downs. Its very elegant and very natural. If Greece were truly capitalists then they wouldn't be having this issue.

How does it feel to be a socialist apologist for a failed system?
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