Socialism is destroying Greece, Spain, Italy, Venezuela and America, to name a few

Originally posted by ghostsoldier
9 times out of 10 these countries are poor is because they have to get resources from the rest of the world that opporates under a monetary system based on differential advantage.

Cuba would not be poor if it allowed freedom for its people. It would be a rich nation.

Cuba has to import 60% of its food - where does it get the money from? Nickel and Cigar exports?! Please! Get a grip on reality. Cuba is a tiny third-world island that is under the most brutal sanctions in the world - yet somehow they provide all their citizens with free and universal world-class health care, free education right through university, they send doctors all around the world, have scholarships for anyone from a third-world country (and the US), everyone gets fed and everyone has a job. They are in poverty because of the sanctions, and because they have no resources - but they have accomplished alot.

Cuba is a communist dictatorship that allows no freedom at all for its people that is why it is poor. I don't want free healtcare if I'm not free to do what I want to do. I'm not a child and I don't need someone to tell me when its ok to wipe my but.

Look at any other country with a similar GDP and you will see the difference.

A big difference

But BigMacs, Bentlys and BigScreen TVs are still a temptation.

The good thing about living in capiatlist countries is that you don't have to endulge in those things but you can if you put out some effort.

Stalin was not "left-wing" he was a fascist who used a bureaucratic dictatorship with socialist rhetoric to enslave the russian people to polarise the world, allow the military industrial complex to take root, collapse itself and install a one-world super power (aka America).

Stalin "was" leftwing, a communist and hated capitalism and freedom. But he lived like a king.

Learn some world history.

Yes you should


Venezuela has become a communist/socialist joke in the last few years. That's too bad it was such a pretty country before Hugo hit.

Yeah I know it has free healthcare and more and more poor people to take care of because of the new communist policies. It has no freedom and will eventually sink into a hellhole like North Korea. There is no more free press so the bad news will never get out.

Okay

And what shall we say of capitalism? It is clearly an unstable system that jumps from boom to bust and back in a never ending cycle. So perhaps we can have an OP that Capitalism is destroying Greece, The USA and the UK....

Capitalism nearly destoyed the global economy last year. The USA developed a toxic debt burden of a magnitutde that seems undefinably large and is a capitalist issue. When wiull the cold war babblers just shut up?

You see how easy it is to make broadbrush comments devoid of clear political, social or economic analysis?

Originally posted by Tiger5
Okay

And what shall we say of capitalism? It is clearly an unstable system that jumps from boom to bust and back in a never ending cycle. So perhaps we can have an OP that Capitalism is destroying Greece, The USA and the UK....

Capitalism doesn't work well when socialist throw wrenches into the machinery. America voted into office a bunch of socialists democrats in 2006 and the rest is history. In a free country we are free to vote into office people that know not what they do, like socialists.

Capitalism nearly destoyed the global economy last year. The USA developed a toxic debt burden of a magnitutde that seems undefinably large and is a capitalist issue.

Capitalism is certainly getting blaimed, mostly by the socialist, who hate capitalism. Well duh.

When wiull the cold war babblers just shut up?

Not until they, the left, destroys capitalism.

You see how easy it is to make broadbrush comments devoid of clear political, social or economic analysis?

I certainly do.

reply to post by gdeed


Hmm so socialist democrats caused the banking crisis? Well which bank do you work for? Or did the socialists infiltrate the banks? If we ignore the mental gymnastics the only conclusion is that capitalism favours the few over the masses and thus is inherently unstable. The problem is a periodic crisis of over production and rampant short terminism. If you honestly believe that capitalism serves the greater good and there are three bridges in Brooklyn that i can sell you at discount.

The socialists did not generate the banking crisis or the other periodic recessions.

[edit on 2-5-2010 by Tiger5]

"I agree with you but the reason I use small bites is that most people on internet sites will not read long monotonous posts and study charts. The world is awash with leftwing ideology because its cool and it is a rebellious attitude towards America mostly. People love to rebel it makes them feel like intellectuals."

Funny most of the world is capitalist so being awash with left wing ideology is a false allegation.

A rebellious attitude to American well I don't think so. America has given the world a lot of good dtuff and a lot of bad stuff. America has given a lot of social movements that you may call left wing but which I call part of the human dignity movement.

Some of us are too old to be "cool" we just want a fairer society with an "each according to his or her needs " we also want to see the poor have a decent lifeand a civilised society. I can only wear one suit at a time. If I eat too much food I get fat. Why should some people starve amongst plenty? Why should there not be a decent safety net for all.

What is clear is that you sir or madam are just 3 days of starvation from embracing socialism. I am positive that you also do not own "the means of production" I.e you are not a capitalist! An enthuesistic supporter yes but not a capitlist.

The capitalists are the richest people on the planet and are therefore TPTB. Thereis no need to invoke the annunaki, the Masons, the Jews or the Illuminati. The capitalists own 90% of the wealth and are quite greedy and corrupt The also seek to control third world resources and governments. Venezuela is only an irritant as it is still a poor country.

[edit on 2-5-2010 by Tiger5]

reply to post by gdeed


You are correct. Unmanaged socialism is at fault here. In concept, socialism works as a political system. It only works, however if you manage the hand-outs with economic growth. You can not continue to lay on more services and borrow to fund them.

The work effort of the Europeans has been sliding for decades and the services increasing steadily. You can not sustain that model indefinately. I lived in Greece for a time and absent farmers, folks do not work much, nor hard. The same is the case in southern Italy and major parts of Portugal and Spain.

If people want to have a large state and a lot of state funded programs, thats fine, but they are going to have to figure out how to create a sustainable model to pay form them.

I don't believe that socialism works because I think people are inherently lazy and socialism erodes the work incentive. It is easy to disagree with me, but you can't agree with the basic equation of work for resources to fund services. Should these countrys want to keep their model, they are going to have to invest in the economic infrastructure in terms of R&D, education and the incubation of innovative firms that can drive some level of an export economy.

One of the things I found the most troubling while living in Greece was the extremely intelligent folks who were so totally underutilized and the waste of natural ability.

Green technology, biotech, software, anything. Lots of smart folks, not much in the way of leveraging their talents or energy.

reply to post by Jobeycool


"Why can't you people understand both socialism and capitalism have corruption in them."

Well that is true and who could justify Vladimir Putin or Stalin??

"Socialism is a far more serious danger and a threat for facism to grow in the government level and for a dictatorship to take over and possibly just start killing everyone who opposes them."

Wrong socialism is an intermediary stage and has a mixed economy.

Capitalism is a lot more manipulative as it manipulates prices and people for profit for the few. trickle down ecomics does not work. The rich get richer and the poor well they are just feckles and stupid and idle according to some.

reply to post by gdeed


"America didn't have that problem until we became Socialist back in 2006 when we gave control of the congress to the democrats and they began over taxing Corporations and forcing many companies to go under. "

Actually there have been crises in capitalism and bank crashes long before 2006 in the USa. You cannot blame the falure of the democrats to move ever rightwards for this. The Democrats are not socialist. There is no American major party that is even vaguelly socialist. "Socialism" is a cliched bogeyman that is trotted out way to often in American politics.

"The housing demise soon followed and took down the banking industy and the rest is history. We voted for change and now we got to live with the change. "

Have you heard of Subprime loans? The bankers did the short term lending thing thatled to the crash. The bubble burst. Were you anywhere near the housing markets say 202 to 2005?

Originally posted by gdeed

The people have voted for change and they seem to be getting change. But not much change left in their pockets. Money is the root of all evil.

But money sure comes in handy when buying food, clothing and shelter. An over regulated not so free enterprise system as Socialism is doesn’t seem to be working very well, just look at the huge unemployment numbers in those countries.

Of course you are from US and you can tell about UE.
Ridiculous.

reply to post by dolphinfan


Well the American and european nations cannot compete with labour costs in developing countries. So it is inevitable that both Europe and America will decline. Prepare for the chinese capitalist era. Learn mandarin. It is all part of the capitalist system.

Globalisation is the final stage of capitalism. And capitalism knows no boundaries. American capitalists (aka TPTB) do not owe the American people anything!

Originally posted by Donny 4 million
reply to post by Tiger5

 

Sorry tiger,
I don't see it that way. Freddie, Fanny and AIG were caterer to by the FED and bailed by the FED against popular will. The institutions that were not in their pockets were allowed to fail. WTF Tax payers money.
That is not capitalism but dictatorship and Communism.
The real fact is that the Americans and it sounds like those Spanish folks, were swindled by the officials and their preferred banker buddies Goldman Sucks and the like. Not corporations.
If a financial institution is to big to fail, it is the governments fault it is to big to begin with.
The government in devious ways relaxed every safe guard as to allow that collapse to happen.
You start the revolt by impoverishing the population. That is what is in process. IMO

[edit on 28-2-2010 by Donny 4 million]

No No No

The workers in america do not own the means of production. There is no american corporation run as a worker's coop. there was no Troika as existed in Russia 1917 t0 1921 or thereabouts. You are not using the communist definition of the word Communist which is a distinct mode of economics.

America has never had a communist government. Goldman Sachs is a capitalist organisation. You simply cannot cherry-pick the truth.

Ther removal of the checks was anact of LAISEZ-FAIRE CAPITALISM. I am not bashing America we did the same thing in the UK with similar diasterous results. Both our countries are screwed.

Capitlalists are a distinct social class and form the ruling classes so those in the government and those in Goldman Sachs were definately buddies and probably socialised and had similar demographics as you would expect of any class.



[edit on 2-5-2010 by Tiger5]

It is difficult to deny ignorance when one side does not know the first thing about marxist theory and economics. Surely you good right wingers would want to study your enemies and in their won words.

Can I suggest the Communist manifesto as a primer. I live in a capitlist society and have also read Adam Smith et al.
Come on Lets "Deny Ignorance"

gdeed, you have little-to-no idea what you are talking about, I'm guessing you are young and disenchanted and looking for answers. I suggest you keep learning, because you haven't figured much out yet.

Originally posted by Tiger5


The socialists did not generate the banking crisis or the other periodic recessions.

[edit on 2-5-2010 by Tiger5]

The socialists certainly are not going to take credit for that mess, that don't mean they didn't create it. The leftwing took over both the house and the senate in 2006 and sat on their butts and did nothing to stop the carnage they created from hiting the fan in 2008.

Originally posted by Tiger5
It is difficult to deny ignorance when one side does not know the first thing about marxist theory and economics. Surely you good right wingers would want to study your enemies and in their won words.

Can I suggest the Communist manifesto as a primer. I live in a capitlist society and have also read Adam Smith et al.
Come on Lets "Deny Ignorance"

The first step to denying ignorance is to swallow the pride and admit that prosperity is never created by people living in a wealfare state, which socialism and communism is. Take away insentive and no one will do anything but sit around and complain about those that have it better than them.

reply to post by gdeed


Actually, I dare say that workers would have more incentive in their jobs if they had direct ownership of their company and profited from it.

Worker Cooperative

reply to post by gdeed



The greater good is all the incentive that I need. I can still only wear one suit at a time. The alternative is barbarianism. "Me first" politics leads corruption and conflict


Wealth can be gernerated under Socialism also. Better public service and health service can be developed under socialism.



[edit on 3-5-2010 by Tiger5]

Originally posted by Someone336
reply to post by gdeed

 

Actually, I dare say that workers would have more incentive in their jobs if they had direct ownership of their company and profited from it.

Worker Cooperative

I work for a company and the incentive is my paycheck. I use that paycheck to pay for my house, my car, my vacation and when I eat out now and then.

If I want to get ambitiouse and make more money I can take a chance and start a company and maybe make more money, or not. But I have that choice.

But why should I start a company, risk my money and time and then let someone come and take it away from me? I don't think I could handle that so I keep working for the man or woman that can handle it.

Communism and socialism takes what others have created and often run the companys to the ground. Like many renters, that don't own the property they don't take care of it as well as the owners do or would.

I'll stick with capitalism and free enterprize, the best and most productive system in this world.

Originally posted by Tiger5
reply to post by gdeed

 

The greater good is all the incentive that I need. I can still only wear one suit at a time. The alternative is barbarianism. "Me first" politics leads corruption and conflict

I bet if I sat on my but and did nothing and still expected to get the same as the person that works the fields "the greater good" you speak of would last two minutes if that. That's what communism is, it pays everyone the same no matter what they do or don't do. There is no incentive to do anything productive or inventive under communism. Therefore the commies have to crack the whip to keep the cattle (people) working and with little or no freedom.

Wealth can be gernerated under Socialism also. Better public service and health service can be developed under socialism.
[edit on 3-5-2010 by Tiger5]

The only thing that generates wealth is free enterprize. Socialism has some free enterprise, that's how they pay for public services. In those countries I mentioned above they are having to cut many of those services because they have run out money because they have a tight leash on capitalism. Socialists just don't get it, and communist certainly don't get it. They don't seem to understand where money, prosperty and freedom comes from. It "only" comes from capitalistic incentives.

reply to post by gdeed


Wow, you completely missed the point of my post, and I imagine you didn't read my link.



How does the Indian Coffee House, Kantega, the Mondragón Cooperative Corporation, Suma Wholefoods, the Kibbutz of yesteryear, AK Press, John Lewis Partnership, C4 Tech & Design, etc, mesh with you idea that only capitalism generates incentives?

And no dodging the question this time please.

[edit on 3-5-2010 by Someone336]