Experiment could prove The Theory of General Relativity wrong...

reply to post by truthseeker1984


I included the original report on the field experiment with the news article.

Check out the link at the bottom of the op(PDF file). Phage also included some slightly contrary albeit very good research himself.

[edit on 26-2-2010 by Shark_Feeder]

reply to post by MrVertigo

Wow! This is could be huge if it checks out.

I don't understand why?

Most people, if you ask them what Einstines theory of Relativity is, won't have a clue. They know they've heard the term before, but don't actually know what it means...and anyone, in my opinion, who actually gives his "theory" some serious thought will realize it's just a bizarre theory with absolutely zero scientific foundation to back it up. No, it's not impossible, but it doesn't make sense.

His theory has some sound, albeit common sense, postulates, but when you combine them all together, to say that human perception of reality is enough to manipulate reality its self...is just non sense.

If a tree falls in the forest, and nobody is around to hear it, does it actually make a sound? Yes. There's just nobody there to hear it.


not to mention....time is a human concept. There is no proof or reason to believe that it is constant and forever.

I've been waiting for someone to actually challenge this decrepit old theory and finally make it go away. Einstein was a thinker, i don't dislike the guy, but im sick & tired of the snobbish adoration and god-like praise that some "intellectuals" tend to give to him. The theory of relativity is garbage.

Originally posted by Snarf

Einstein was a thinker, i don't dislike the guy, but im sick & tired of the snobbish adoration and god-like praise that some "intellectuals" tend to give to him.

I 2nd this motion and request if passed it apply to all scientists and "geniuses" of the world.

We need to remember we are all human and at the end of the day we are most likely all wrong.

you all can test the theory of relativity yourselves next time you take a trip to ANYWHERE.

Going to the mailbox to check the mail? You qualify.
Taking a trip via Amtrak to see grandma for Easter? You Qualify.

Just follow these simple steps, and match the results to the choices at the bottom of this post:

• Get someone to help you. This could be your grandma, the mailman, your husband or wife, children, etc. It helps if the person who is helping you can be at your destination to allow for instant verification.
  
• Plan a trip. Remember, try to have your helper be there waiting for you.
  
• Get two stop watches. One for you, One for your helper.
  
• Each of you, individually, and simultaneously begin the stop watch at the exact moment you begin your trip, and stop both of the stopwatches at the exact moment you arrive.
  
• Take notes of the time of each others stop watch.
  

RESULTS:

Possibility #1 - Both stop watches have identical time
Possibility #2 - One stop watch has more time than the other


If you matched possibility #2, then the theory of relativity is sound and holds water.

If you matched possibility #1, then the theory of relativity is foundationless and must, therefore, concede, and be pronounced a failure





Side Note:

A while back i sent this idea to mythbusters to use two atomic clocks, set them on 2 different commercial jumbo jets that fly around the globe, for a predetermined amount of time, and, after X time and X distance was traveled

the two clocks would be compared and if they matched, then the theory is busted.


They have never responded to my request...must be too lazy Or a snobby intellectual who doesn't want Einstein to be wrong.

[edit on 26-2-2010 by Snarf]

Originally posted by Xeven
It is my belief that gravities effects/force is not fully restricted to a time continuum. As a gravity well passes through time its force is smeared rather than passed unlike matter. This means that what we measure when we measure gravity is not a single instance or moment of its force rather it is the accumulation of several time frames of its force.

This would explain a whole bunch of holes in many theories. If someone smarter than I would take this and run with it, I bet it would resolve the need for Dark Energy. Gravity that existed a moment ago is still effecting things in the now.

Hard for me to explain my vision of this.

Wow.

That is pretty profound. Thanks for sharing it.

The OP article is an outstanding example of the lack of true understanding of the reality of reality. I would suspect the size difference of the measurement would account for the speed of Earth travelling through the universe. I would suspect that our speed on a universal or systemic level would be significant, and the "million trillion times" might have the gap closed a little.

[edit on 26-2-2010 by bigfatfurrytexan]

reply to post by Snarf


Your interpretation may very well be correct. My understanding however is that the stopwatches are also effected by relativity as all of the universe is.

Their perception is as badly thrown off as our is.

I may be way off base here as relativity has always confused the heck out of me, but that was how a buddy of mine (chemical engineer, granted no physics major but still bloody smart) once explained it to me.

In the end I tend to agree that the theory is very obviously flawed when you take a "closer" look at the universe. I am just not sure how...

reply to post by Shark_Feeder

Their perception is as badly thrown off as our is.

I would say that this is a "can't prove me wrong so i must be right" argument (not aimed at you, just that theory in general)

Its one thing to say "i have a theory"

its another thing to say "here's my theory, and any thing you say to prove it wrong, i have a straw-man retort for that makes me right"

Saying that its impossible to measure time is not a valid statement. Humans define time.

We created the concept. And yet we don't fully understand it ourselves.

Our perception of time definitely varies from person to person. Hence phrases like "time flies when you're having fun" and "damn, time is draggin"

But the simple fact remains that exactly 60 seconds went by to create 1 minute...whether it felt like 30 days or not

This theory, to me, is like looking at a horrible painting by a famous artist.

This painting is famous because it's painted by a famous artist - not because it's a great painting.

I have to note that frame dragging is a bit of a different subject than what this thread started with.

Also I found some papers on some of the researchers more recent work at:

arxiv.org...:+Tajmar_M/0/1/0/all/0/1

[edit on 26-2-2010 by broli]

[edit on 26-2-2010 by broli]

reply to post by Shark_Feeder


Uh Oh. That may destroy the whole idea of dark energy and mass. Actually, that may redefine EVERYTHING we know about mass in general.

I knew there was something up with Hubble's law. It just didn't make sense. The implications here are huge...HUGE.

So, where are the skeptics?

[edit on 26-2-2010 by EvolvedMinistry]

Originally posted by Snarf
its another thing to say "here's my theory, and any thing you say to prove it wrong, i have a straw-man retort for that makes me right"

I sincerely hope I didn't come across this way. Most of my ridiculous ideas can be, and are often proven wrong very quickly.

I am more or less playing devil's advocate trying to spawn some in depth thought and discussion on this experiment and possible implications on General Relativity, Quantum Physics, and the field of physics in general.

If I am coming across as antagonistic it is not intentional.

Originally posted by Snarf
Saying that its impossible to measure time is not a valid statement. Humans define time.

We created the concept. And yet we don't fully understand it ourselves.

This I can't help but agree with.

Originally posted by Snarf
Our perception of time definitely varies from person to person. Hence phrases like "time flies when you're having fun" and "damn, time is draggin"

But the simple fact remains that exactly 60 seconds went by to create 1 minute...whether it felt like 30 days or not

One of the major problems I have with relativity.

I have never had anyone explain to me the effect of relativity on an atomic clock. That starts to confuse me even more.

Like you pointed out, I don't think we understand time at all.

reply to post by Shark_Feeder

I sincerely hope I didn't come across this way. Most of my ridiculous ideas can be, and are often proven wrong very quickly.

Not at all

I realized what you were saying, and i didn't think for a nano-second that you were coming across as ridiculous. Im just stating my grievances with this broken theory

To *ME* the theory should easily be dismissed. But reality is a lot like time, perception of it varies from person to person

[edit on 26-2-2010 by Snarf]

reply to post by Snarf


Relativity is not garbage. Do you know what gravitational lensing is? Without this phenomenon, we would not be able to see certain, very far galaxies, because they would be blocked by the clusters/galaxies in front of them. Check out this video:

www.youtube.com...

This only proves curved space, however. I believe that Einstein interpreted time erroneously. What he really meant was that people aged differently, depending on how fast they're moving.

reply to post by np6888


Okay, but please do try to consider the simple facts we have here.

We *CAN* do these experiments to PROVE that you don't age faster by traveling faster.

I dont really want to re-type all of my previous arguments, just know that they are above

And i do need to restate something i said

relativity is garbage

Thats not entirely true, because i think that relativity does get it right when it talks about human perception of time.

But then the theory takes its self too seriously and postulates that human perception can manipulate reality.

If you are traveling 1,000,000 miles per second, then it will take you 1 minute to travel 60,000,000 miles. That 1 minute is universal. It took 60 seconds because you were traveling so fast. If your grandmother is waiting for you at the 60 million mile marker, then she will only be waiting 60 seconds from the time you leave earth to the time you are standing next to her.



It didn't take 60 million years of "earth time".

elativity is not garbage. Do you know what gravitational lensing is? Without this phenomenon, we would not be able to see certain, very far galaxies, because they would be blocked by the clusters/galaxies in front of them. Check out this video:

Gravitational lensing is talking about the manipulation of light through a black hole.

Not time.

We can't see time, because time is an ideal. Light is just photons that we have receptors to pick up on.

In order for that video to "prove" general relativity, then it would mean that "we" as in me and you, don't exist without light.

Since light is what is being distorted going through the black hole. The light travels from its origin, to the hubble lens. Not the object its self.

The image appears to be in two places at once, because its light is playing tricks on the camera via the black hole.

But its really in the same place the entire time.

[edit on 26-2-2010 by Snarf]

I am hoping this research can eventually progress and fill in the "holes" and "gaps" between Relativity, Newtonian, and Quantum Physics.

The Holy Grail of physics so to speak.

Makes me think of religion... A little bit of truth everywhere, and most likely a lot of misinterpretation.

Boy, am I getting an education on this site.
Many thanks to all your hard work guys.

Originally posted by Snarf
We *CAN* do these experiments to PROVE that you don't age faster by traveling faster.

Yes we can. And have.
Your atomic clock experiment? Been there.

Because the experiment was reproduced by increasingly accurate methods, there has been a consensus among physicists since at least the 1970's that the relativistic predictions of gravitational and kinematic effects on time have been conclusively verified.

en.wikipedia.org...

Time dilation has been shown to occur and the effect is an integral consideration of the GPS system.

The engineers who designed the GPS system included these relativistic effects when they designed and deployed the system. For example, to counteract the General Relativistic effect once on orbit, they slowed down the ticking frequency of the atomic clocks before they were launched so that once they were in their proper orbit stations their clocks would appear to tick at the correct rate as compared to the reference atomic clocks at the GPS ground stations. Further, each GPS receiver has built into it a microcomputer that (among other things) performs the necessary relativistic calculations when determining the user's location.

www.astronomy.ohio-state.edu...

reply to post by Phage

i know exactly what experiment you're talking about - and it is from the incredibly flawed 1-time experiment that produced questionable results that my inspiration came from to say "lets get some money behind this"

Mythbusters. Hey, i know its just entertainment, but at least they'll be allowed the resources to properly conduct the experiment, and i can live easily with the results...no matter what the outcome.


The experiment was done 40 years ago. All that im asking is that we do it again - and this time - we eliminate any possibility for error or human interaction.


I am willing to accept the theory of "relativity" if it can be presented in a manner that can possibly be measured. To date, every counter argument given to Einsteins claim to glory is met with a vehement reaction from some self-proclaimed intellectual saying that i'm wrong, because the theory can't be measured. It literally is that backwards. I'm wrong, Einstein is right, because Einsteins "Theory" has no way to be proven false, because any method used to do so "can't be measured" and is "easily" dismissed. Sounds a lot like the God theory to me. Faith from scientists?

I can't take this theory and have it move forward. This tells me that there is a flawed observational system at work. Any theory that refuses to be proven wrong isn't a theory, it's a belief.

[edit on 26-2-2010 by Snarf]

Originally posted by Phage

Yes we can. And have.
Your atomic clock experiment? Been there.

Because the experiment was reproduced by increasingly accurate methods, there has been a consensus among physicists since at least the 1970's that the relativistic predictions of gravitational and kinematic effects on time have been conclusively verified.

en.wikipedia.org...

Wow thanks for the information Phage, the atomic clock question was my own. Your response was swift.

Does gravity itself play a direct role in time, or is it merely altering the path of light(could be both now that I read this)?

I am kind of an amateur when it comes to physics.

reply to post by Shark_Feeder

This gets tricky but it's two different effects.

According to general relativity light always travels in a straight path through space-time. Mass causes a distortion of space-time which makes that straight path appear to bend. Subtle difference.

That distortion of space time also causes varying accelerated frames of reference. It is differences in those frames of reference which cause differences in time. I don't have the math to get a firm grip on this one myself but it's been proven to happen.

reply to post by Phage


I think I have some idea of what that means...and now my head hurts a bit more.

I am off to do a bit more reading on the subject see if I can wrap my head around some of it.

You sir are a fountain of wisdom of this site.

[edit on 26-2-2010 by Shark_Feeder]