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The Beautiful Bhagavad Gita

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posted on Dec, 14 2010 @ 01:47 AM
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reply to post by dontreally
 


The ultimate reality to which these traditions point, cannot be named, cannot be discussed, argued over, understood.

We can only live God, and to do this we must love, as we are loved, and therefore the loving bhakti of selfless service, is the appropriate locus and catalyst to action, which resonates 100% with the love of the lover (God) and beloved other (man).

That's the core of it.

The God within, or nowhere in particular and thus, everywhere, all at once, as one thing, one love.

An object of desire. "Krishna" can symbolize the transcendant that is our natural state of mind, reconciled, atoned, cleansed by the washing of karma, by the waashing of the feet..

Jesus was a Jewish rabbi, we must not forget. So you see in my mind all of this is linked together in one circle, in a compassionate invitation, nothing more. No harm done.

And if you don't like it, don't read it!

This needn't become a Gita bashing thread I don't think!



posted on Dec, 14 2010 @ 01:58 AM
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reply to post by NewAgeMan
 


Thanks for completely ignoring the points i made.

I guess it isnt important for christians to learn about the "old testament"

Do you see how thats the problem? Christians have been taught, and have completely crammed in their collective psyche, that the "old" testament, is "old" and over, irrelavant. Judaism, is what christianity was built from; and unfortunately, it was a ruse of the Roman elite to get rid of Judaism

All that you speak of is in Torah.

Judaism is indeed very much about transcendence and union with ones source - HaShem (the name). Only difference between Judaism and all the worlds other traditions, is that G-d initiated a relationship with mankind. The hebrew language when studied, proves it. This of course requires one to put years of study into this, which is alot of time and effort...so, usually when i mention this it goes in one ear and out the next.

In anycase. Judaism doesnt seek to disturb other religions. This is what Judaism is about


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The Seven Laws of Noah

It is well known that the Jewish faith does not seek to make converts, and so it is generally supposed that since the Jewish people do not want to make other people into Jews, they are happy just to be left alone. The world is often very surprised to discover that the Jewish faith includes a complete provision for all non-Jews, regardless of race, social class or national origin, perfectly attuned to their needs, and deriving from the same source in Divine revelation through the prophecy of Moses, without any intermediary whatsoever. Only the true universal faith of the Jews regularly offers something to those who are not its members, and this is its sign of authenticity.

This provision is known as the Noachide Laws. Though the first man and his wife, Adam and Eve, were commanded to observe them, they emerged fully only after Noah had survived the flood that wiped away violent sinners whose wrongdoings had engulfed the world in his time. The ancestors of the Jewish people were also commanded in them until they were given the whole Torah at Mount Sinai, and they were then reaffirmed through Moses for all the other nations.

The laws are all prohibitions, unlike those of the Jewish people who have affirmative commandments, but they are not intended to make life dull or restricted. They point out what the good and true path should be, and with this path all moral necessities for the non-Jews are established, without need for any other philosophy, scientific discovery or change in government. All relationships between Jews and non-Jews are likewise explained, both in Israel and in other countries.

Sexual transgression

All people originate from sexual relations, and so the laws which govern them are our most basic ‘constitution’, testifying to the Divine origin of humankind. Non-Jews are not commanded to marry, but they are encouraged to do so, and they are forbidden to have relations with the wife of another man. Male homosexuality, incest and bestial relations are also forbidden under the same heading, even though the desires for them are very different. Jews and non-Jews are forbidden to each other, because of the different origin of their respective commandments. When these laws are observed, then human relations of all kinds are enhanced by the Divine sanction, and love increases throughout the world.

Murder

Though the reasons for sexual prohibitions may be mysterious, most people if asked what laws they would make to govern the world would immediately say that on no account must illegal bloodshed be allowed to go unpunished. Human life is a sacred trust, and can only be taken with legal sanction. The murderer is executed by decapitation, at the sentence of the duly authorized sovereign court only. Protection is extended to the unborn, and the details of any abortion case must be closely studied according to the law. War action is subject to strict security standards, at the order of a lawful regime. It is rare for any person to take life in truly wanton circumstances, because of instinctive recognition of its value, and this recognition must be taken up to the level of reckoning which the spiritual law requires.

Theft

The first man and woman transgressed the Noachide prohibition of theft by eating the fruit which had been forbidden to them, and this is still a Divine provision for non-Jews regarding all property in the hands of others. Property ownership is underwritten by Divine law for all humanity, and is not just a matter for an aggrieved individual to settle for himself. Respect for property rights is the basis for generosity with possessions, and for business dealings that lead the world through its use and traffic of goods to its final destiny. This brings moral satisfaction in the workplace, and the fostering of ethics in this area is a prime need for our society.

Idolatry

If the worship of entities other than the Creator had not been forbidden by His express command, then people would be free to choose what to worship, just as they choose their own personal friends. However the whole area of relations between humanity and its Creator has been placed under specific requirements, namely that only His truth and unity should be the subject of belief, worship and philosophy. His revelation has two levels, the one in nature for ordinary reckoning, and the other through prophecy on Mount Sinai for the moral law. All non-Jews derive their true religious fulfillment from this latter source, and any reference to an intermediary causes error and loss of morality. There is no need for non-Jews to form associations for Noachide observance and prayer, but they may do so if they wish.

Cursing the Name

The power of speech distinguishes humanity from all other species, and this distinction leads to the specific human prohibition not to use speech for cursing the Creator, because it shows ingratitude for his kindness. This commandment pairs with the previous one, showing that the Divine rulership and the Divine love go together at all times and places, no matter how great the difficulties may seem. Jews and non-Jews are commanded in the same verse in this respect, showing how in the Messianic times all of humankind will join together in voicing praise for the Creator. All other misuses of speech, such as gossip, obscenity and lies, are indicated in this commandment as something to avoid, just as prayer and words of Torah are desirable so that speech will become truly Divine.

Eating the limb of a living animal

Though it may seem far-fetched to think of eating meat from a living creature, the intent behind this prohibition is to safeguard the human sexual integrity. The connection between eating and sexuality is well known, and it is the sexual drive for consumption of the ‘heat of life’ that leads to the kind of greed which damages reproduction. The Noachide Law teaches us that this is rectified by being careful to eat only meat from an animal that is fully dead, and this is by no means always the case in our factory society where slaughterhouses handle meat animals quickly and carelessly, sometimes only stunning them before cutting them up for sale. Care in this observance fosters all requirements for the love of nature and the preservation of the environment, and safeguards the passage of souls as manifested in the life and consumption of food animals until the ultimate destiny of the world.

System of justice

The non-Jewish nations of the world are commanded to avoid the state of anarchy by assuming and exercising the sovereign jurisdiction, to maintain courts that punish offenders by due process of law, and that provide civil redress in society. The Noachide Laws themselves form the basis of the criminal code, but each nation may make civil laws as it sees fit within the general guidelines. This provision does not apply within the Land of Israel, where the sovereign power is in the hands of the Jewish people, and they judge non-Jews of any nationality living or visiting there under these same Noachide Laws.

Corporations are held in being by the sovereign power through the enactment of corporate law, which is empowered by this commandment. The sovereign power is responsible for regulating these corporations in the public interest, and ensuring their conformity with all aspects of the law. Thus Communism and Fascism are in breach of the spiritual law because of their lack of this regulation. Non-Jews are obligated to seek reconciliation rather than take their disputes straight to court, and this in turn obligates them to give charitable donations to the needy so as to foster reconciliation in general.

The Rabbis of the Talmud say, ‘War comes to the world through the delay of justice, the perversion of justice, and the teaching of Torah out of accordance with its legal meaning.’ When all processes of law are rectified in this way, with good government applied to sustain them, functioning in Divine integrity, then grievances are properly handled and true peace emerges into the light of day. This is among the recognitions of the United States Congress in its Declaration endorsing the Noachide Laws (H.J. Res. 104, Public Law 102-14, March 1990 and subsequently), based on long historic understanding of the Jewish people and the Torah.


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As For the bhagavad Gita. I didnt say anything negative about it. Is there a site i could go to that breaks down the allegorical language so i can understand its theology? I would be interested. Not that it would change my beliefs or anything. Just so i can know whether its 'kosher' or not.

edit on 14-12-2010 by dontreally because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 14 2010 @ 02:09 AM
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The above of course, is not completely binding. Decapitation isnt always the method used for capital punishment. Though for a murderer, perhaps its completely justified (since "he lost his head" when he decided to take someone elses life)

Also. These laws are understood within the context of other religions. Christianity, Buddhism, hinduism etc. Obviously though, some religions will have to be seriously 'reformed'.

But than again, what meaning do some of their dogmas have, when the truth of the one true G-d is known to all?

jesus, krishna, etc... Funny to say. The only other people who are following the laws of noah to a T, are muslims.



posted on Dec, 14 2010 @ 02:19 AM
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reply to post by dontreally
 


Then we are in agreement, and the "uncaused cause" is love, love of God above all and neighbor as self.

Love, and do as you will ~ St. Augustine.

"Our liberation, is God's compulsion." ~ C.S. Lewis

"The kingdom of heaven, is like a wealthy merchant in search of a fine pearl, who, upon finding it, sells everything he owns, to have that pearl."

I can no longer bring myself, to argue over this or be right relative to anyone's wrong, and if you wish to project that, from the Torah, no less, then you are welcome to it.

You want us to take a look at that, at the same time, in this discussion, that is good. We need all the light we can get, but light is light, and one light cannot make another light dark, nor require the other light's darkness to shine, since that diminishes all light, even the light of the Torah in your experience ie: what we measure out is measured back.

This apparent difficulty can be resolved however, if, as i introduce more of that Gita introduction, you add in all the areas in which the Torah also speaks, but that need not be at the exclusion of or with the intent to prove the other guy or his beloved book, wrong..? That would violate the spirit of the highest commandment to love God above all and neighbor as self, at very possibly, a fundamental level, given the nature of this topic and discussion, and what will be introduced, as it proceeds.

We ought to be measured in these kinds of things, so as to achieve mutual benefit that is in alignment with our various traditions and deeply held POV's or beliefs, or even Gnosises (is that a word?).

The spirit is as loving, playful, curious, and amuzed, as it is righteous, and discerning, it is not a club or a sword (an arror of many so-called Christians for sure) with which to bash in the other man's head, and to pierce his heart. That is not the love of God.



posted on Dec, 14 2010 @ 02:35 AM
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reply to post by dontreally
 


Dontreally, WTH? Why is it every thread you come into you neglect the topic at hand, turn it to a argument and propagate Judaism? Maybe people want to talk about the Bhagavad Gita or Buddhism or something else other than Judaism, that doesn't mean we dislike Judaism or think there is no wisdom in the Torah, but we are not talking about that. We are not all idiots who are lost and need to be converted to your beliefs, trust me. Be thankful no one has alerted the mods in to your trolling behavior and got you banned or at least warned, maybe that shows peoples level of compassion and patience, something you should respect.

Please stop with the off topic posts and make your own thread if you'd like to show people how much you love Judaism. I'm sure more people would listen to you then and maybe even become interested in learning about Judaism for themselves. To be honest you are doing Judaism a disservice by coming into eastern philosophical threads and forcing your info on everyone. Thank you and take it easy.



posted on Dec, 14 2010 @ 02:40 AM
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reply to post by NewAgeMan
 


Ill talk more about this tomorrow.

I think ive said enough about Torah. Ive derailed this thread enough. I made one comment that drew more out of me than i should have allowed.

Im good with all that you said. But, i got to say, in regards to morality, that there is a line to be drawn. And there is a definite need for self judgement, would you agree?



posted on Dec, 14 2010 @ 02:50 AM
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reply to post by dontreally
 


Absolutely, the truth is a double edged sword, hefty, mighty, and terrifying! God bless you for putting it away. Actually, looking forward to seeing that, what a magnificent sword!

You will see as I add more and more of that introduction, that where God speaks to you, and moves you to share with us, you will have things, extraordinary things, to share, things we all need to begin to understand now, things that, for some reason or another we are becoming now capable fo "grokking" most fully. It's like a great banquet that we are sitting down to, at the head of each seat, each person's own highest truth, as a conversation piece, and as a contribution, or even a gift, not unlike Christmas!


Fear of the judgement is neccessary, sure, to a point, to the point when it's no longer neccessary, and what was judgement becomes freedom, and liberation from the fear of judgement. That is in part what the Gita teaches, namely, that it is entirely possible, to fall in love with God.



posted on Dec, 14 2010 @ 02:51 AM
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reply to post by LifeIsEnergy
 


Thats an exagerration. Topics always go off topic. Always. Its the nature of discussion, to get off topic sometimes. And even than, i kept my discussion within the context of the thread (or tried to)

You complain too much, lifeisenergy, and youre not very composed in your arguments. You may be a very good conselor, and a good man, but you can be very difficult to have a discussion with. With you, it becomes personal attacks. Or embellishments; ie; I disapprove of promiscuity, and i approve of killing the person who comes to kill you first, which is self defence, essentially, and you interpret that as me being a gun toating war loving nutjob. Its basic logic. I say you shouldnt treat the merciless with mercy, and you say i now love war, and judgement, and punishing people.

No, it means i love justice an equity. Its simply, objective logic. Any humanbeing can understand that... but you seem to worship, in a idolatrous way, eastern philosophy.

As Solomon says, theres a time for all things. War, and peace. You make war on the evil, and cruel, and make peace with those who are good and decent. The people you described in your last thread, do not qualify as 'cruel'. Confused, misguided youth, yes. But not cruel. Cruelty is a person who does not first response to the help you try to give; and infact rebuffs it, and mocks it. Such a merciless, evil person shouldnt be allowed to spread his evil influence. And that person, who rejects your help, is also a criminal. Someone who is obstinate, is not cruel. Someone who doesnt show compassion, and who himself has murdered others. Now HE should be shown compassion? is that justice to the life he took? what about the soul he took from the world? his blood shouldnt make up for it? Interesting logic. No. such a person has sealed his own fate. He will be removed from the world, and therefore makeup for his punishment or Karma, by having been punished for his crime against G-d (or the universe, if you prefer) . In addition, we have a moral obligation to protect ourselves and other innocent people, from evil, heartless criminals.

I was even reading that this is a Hindu concept. Protect the innocent from evil. This is justice. Does it make sense now, that a Hindu source sanctions this conduct?
edit on 14-12-2010 by dontreally because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 14 2010 @ 02:59 AM
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reply to post by dontreally
 

Peace. Time for peace.

Everyone is allowed to express themselves, and, to become aware of the spirit motivating them and how that appears to the readers, who are many.

Me I'm getting sick of TALKING about these things. I am HUNGRY for them now. Let's EAT!



posted on Dec, 14 2010 @ 03:09 AM
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Originally posted by dontreally
It disturbs when a Jew like Einstein sees more wisdom and beauty in the bhagavad Gita than in Sefer Beresheit

I simply do not understand it.

I have read the Bhagavad Gita. I found it eloquent. But esoterically, how can that compare to the creation described by the Torah?


The two sources of wisdom are very different in their effect on the psyche, but they are both highly enjoyable in their own way.



posted on Dec, 14 2010 @ 03:13 AM
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reply to post by NewAgeMan
 


Fear of punishment is one thing. Fear of G-d as an expression of Love, is an entirely different thing.

When i say self judgement, i mean self actualization through objective analysis of ones past behavior. this shouldnt become a thing that leaves you guilt ridden. G-d doesnt want to hurt you. He wants you to judge yourself, so he wont have to judge you. Thats the love G-d shows us. He allows us to be the ultimate decision maker of our own fate. Choose he says. You have good and bad before you. Choose good. This is also a fact of science/psychology. We have certain inbuilt character traits. Neither good nor bad. If not controlled, it can be expressed through evil, negative behavior. though if one becomes AWARE of his own impulses and desires, he can learn to channel his natural desires in a positive and constructive way (this relates to the zodiac/planets). So, basically, awareness of self is what self judgement produces. Ultimately, the idea is to come closer to our source.

I love talking about these things, i just feel theres such a wide divide between your thoughts and mine simply because Judaism is based on a concept which is totally different from what 'the perennial' philosophies of other traditions are. Because of this, we will inevitably butt heads, and see each other as being incorrect in some manner.

In the language of Torah, your philosophy is rooted in the name Elohim. G-d created the world through this name, as it says in the creation narrative in genesis. Elohim, has the same numerical value, as HaTeva - nature. Nature, is Elohim. Natural philosophy, which you describe, eventually produces the same thing. This is why gnosticism, sufism, vedanta, etc, get along so well. They are derived from the same source - the name Elohim

Judaism is not like that though. Judaism is connected to the higher name, YHVH - which means 'being'. For instance, the word "Kli YHVH" vessel of YHVH, refers to Nature, and Elohim. This also has the same gematria as those two words - 86. YHVH set up a screen which shields man from percieving him. It should be mentioned, that G-d is infinite. He only established archetypal relationship with man through these two essential modes. One, the natural, and limited, and the other, the infinite, and transcendent. The former is beyond morality, whereas the latter involves morality. G-d commands us to constrict our nature, the same way he constricted his own to create this world. (he created a void by contracting his infinite light - from this void creation took place)

So.... *sigh*.. I guess i really should just not approach people with your philosophy. Youre sorta convinced of something and its hard to change your views. Because indeed, understanding Judaism requires a change of persepective. It involves everything you described, but it sees ethics and morality and self control as the very means to connect with out source. Like the Noahide law article i posted; this is not meant to make us unhappy, but to refine us, and to refine this world we live in.

currently, were trapped in a reality with foreign ideas, and feelings and 'gods' you could say, which makes enjoying this idea difficult to comprehend.

Burt as a non Jew, who has chosen Judaism. In one word i can express it as this. AWE. Jews have Awe for G-d. The entire experience of Judaism is one of intense awe for the awesome power and majesty of G-d. Of course this relationship is one of love, but even deeper than love, is awe. Awe is connected to understanding, whereas Love is derived from wisdom. When sees and understands how G-d intracts with us, in this world, or in his own life in a person way. Theres only one word for it. Awesome. It is simply awesome. You want to bend your back, fall on your knees and beg for the awareness of consciousness to appreciate your relationship with him in a deeper way when you experience this.

If a gentile gets this out of following 7 basic, rational laws, i can only imagine what 613 can give a Jew. In anycase. theres much that unites us, but a fundamental divide which divides us. And i think the only thing taht can change this situation is for mankind to see for themselves the truth of Judaism - that is, the idea that G-d has directly related with mankind when G-d gave the Torah to Moses at mount sinai. When 4 million pople crossed through the sea of reeds - in a miraculous, and indeed, very symbolic fashion. G-d changed reality when he did that.
edit on 14-12-2010 by dontreally because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 14 2010 @ 03:25 AM
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reply to post by dontreally
 


That is the thing, I do not want to argue but rather discuss the topic at hand. However when there is someone who continuously derails conversations I feel the need to speak up, maybe that is my fault, maybe I should allow moderators to handle that. Anyways, If you read any of my previous posts or threads you will see complaining is not my personality. In fact, I have only gotten into arguments on three specific occasions on these boards; one with you and the other two with blatantly racist people.

I would love to converse with you, but to be honest I am not all that interested in Judaism, especially the way you portray it. (Not an attack)

On the other hand, if someone were to be talking about, say the Bhagavad Gita, and you saw a commonality between its meaning and that of something you have read from Judaism and decided to share it, maybe I would enter into a more productive discussion with you. But then again probably not because I would of come to the thread to discuss the OP, not Judaism. Can we talk about something else? Like anything else? Like maybe the OP?

You say I am bad at conversing, but maybe that is more relevant to you than me considering I have seen you enter into many arguments on these boards, exponentially more than myself. Is there any way for you to share your thoughts on a subject without giving people a tutorial on Judaism? I hope so, because I am tired of doing this with you. But then again maybe that is my fault more than it is yours, maybe I should just ignore you and allow moderators to deal with it. Anyways, have a good night.



posted on Dec, 14 2010 @ 03:30 AM
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reply to post by dontreally
 


That constriction you describe, as being more essential, under the judgement of the Absolute, that's what I'd think of in this context, as a type of bhakti or devotional service, where increasing selfless service, including self discipline, in love, involves a transmutation of desire, where God's will becomes, eventually, indestinguishable from our own heart's innermost desire, dissolving the will to rebellion against such a love in the process, and making of the locus or catalyst of all our action, or that which defines the human being, not a "should" but a "want to", and that's where real faith and trust in God and gnosis or awareness and understanding surely begins, as we start taking our first shaking steps, in fear and trembling, into a new and increasingly freer and more joyful realm or domain of being, until we can some fine day stand upright in the holy of holies and be with the Being (with a capital B).

Point is, we are a work in progress, so it's always wise to withold our assumptions and judgements, and refrain from bringing down the sword on the other man's neck - he might surprise you.

"The heart of the law is mercy."


edit on 14-12-2010 by NewAgeMan because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 14 2010 @ 01:52 PM
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For all those interested I recommend this copy from Amazon: www.amazon.com...=sr_1_12?ie=UTF8&qid=1292356289&sr=8-12

I picked this up a year or so ago, I like all the explanations that go along with the Bhagavad Gita helps to understand it better. You can really pick this up and goto any page and find a anwser to something in your life.



posted on Dec, 14 2010 @ 02:00 PM
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Very interesting indeed OP. Imagine if all humanity could be tought from various books to obtain full awareness to advance totally as a species.. Instead of being tought to ignore what is not the norm to certain locations upon the same Earth. Nice find S&F



posted on Dec, 14 2010 @ 03:09 PM
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reply to post by phiktion
 


when it says 'god talks with arunja', is the god being referenced, krishna?



posted on Dec, 14 2010 @ 03:23 PM
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Thats a pretty decent price for a 1200 + page book. Pretty Hefty.



posted on Dec, 26 2010 @ 05:39 PM
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Getting back, at long last, to the topic at hand "The Beautiful Bhagavad Gita".



Originally posted by NewAgeMan
The Bhagavad Gita
Introduction by Eknath Easwaran

Eknath Easwaran
(1910-1999)
Brings to this volume a rare combination of credentials: knowledge of Sanskrit, an intuitive undersanding of his Hindu legacy, and a mastery of English. He was chairman of the English department at a major Indian university when he came to the United States on a Fulbright fellowship in 1959.

A gifted teacher who lived for many years in the West, Easwaran explains the concepts underlying the classics of Indian spirituality in fresh, authoritative, and profoundly simple ways.

Also in this series by Easwaran are his translations of The Dhammapada and The Upanishads


Introduction

Many years ago, when I was still a graduate student, I traveled by train from central India to Simla, the the summer seat of the British government in India. We had not been long out of Delhi when suddenly a chattering of voices disturbed my reverie. I asked the man next to me if something had happened. "Kurukshetra!" he replied. "The next stop is Kurukshetra!"

I could understand the excitement. Kurukshetra, "the field of the Kurus," is the setting for the climactic battle of the Mahabharata, the vastest epic in any world literature, on which virtually every Hindu child in India is raised. Its characters, removed in time by some three thousand years, are as familiar to us as our relatives. The temper of the story is utterly contemporary; I can imagine it unfolding in the nuclear age as easily as in the dawn of Indian history. The Mahabharata is literature at its greatest - in fact, it has been called a literature in itself, comparable in its depth and breadth and characterization to the whole of Greek literature or Shakespeare. But what makes it unique is that embedded in this literary masterpiece is one of the finest mystical documents the world has ever seen: the Bhagavad Gita.

I must have heard the Gita recited thousands of times when I was growing up, but I don't suppose it had any special significance for me then. Not until I went to college and met Mahatma Gandhi did I begin to understand why nothing in the long, rich stretch of Indian culture has had a wider appeal, not only within India but outside as well. Today, after more than thirty years of devoted study, I would not hesitate to call it India's most important gift ot the world. The Gita has been translated into every major language and perhaps a hundred times into English alone; commentaries on it are said to be more numerous than any other scripture. Like the Sermon on the Mount, it has an immediacy that sweeps away time, place and circumstance. Addressed to everyone, of whatever background or status, the Gita distills the loftiest truths of India's ancient wisdom into simple, memorable poetry that haunts the mind and informs the affairs of everyday life.

Everyone in our car got down from the train to wander for a few minutes on the now peaceful field. Thousands of years ago this was Armageddon. The air rang with the conch-horns and shouts of battle for eighteen days. Great phalanxes shaped like eagles and fish and the crescent moon surged back and forth in search of victory, until in the end almost every warrior in the land lay slain.

"Imagine!" my companion said to me in awe. "Bhishma and Drona commanded their armies here. Arjuna rode here with Sri Krishna himself as his charioteer. Where you're standing now - who knows? - Arjuna might have sat, his bow and arrow on the ground, while Krishna gave him the words of the Baghivad Gita."

The thought was thrilling. I felt the way Schliemann must have when he finally reached the desolate bluff of western Turkey and knew he was standing "on the ringing plains of windy Troy," walking the same grounds as Achilles, Odysseus, Hector and Helen. Yet at the same time, I felt I knew the setting of the Gita much more intimately than I could ever know this peaceful field. The battlefield is a perfect backdrop, but the Gita's subject is the war within, the struggle for self mastery that every human being must wage if he or she is to emerge from life victorious.

The Gita and its Settings - to follow..


Continuing..


The Gita and its Settings

Historians surmise that like the Iliad, the Mahabharata might well be based on actual events, culminating in a war that took place somewhere around 1000 B.C. - close, that is, to the very dawn of recorded Indian history. This guess has recently been supported by excavations at the ancient city of Dvaraka, which, according to the Mahabharata, was destroyed and submerged in the sea after the departure of its divine ruler, Krishna. Only five hundred years or so before this, by generally accepted guess, Aryan tribes originally from the area between the Caspian Sea and the Hundu Kush mountains had migrated into the Indian subcontinent, bring the prototype of the Sanskrit language and countless elements of belief and culture that have been part of the Hindu traditions ever since. The oldest part of the most ancient of Hindu scriptures, the Rig Veda, dates from this period - about 1500 B.C., if not earlier.

Yet the wellspring of Indian religious faith, I believe, can be traced to a much earlier epoch. When the Aryans entered the Indian subcontinent through the mountains of the Hindu Kush, the encountered a civilization on the banks of the Indus river that archeologists date back as far as 3000 B.C. Roughly contemporaneous with the pyramid-builders of the Nile, these indus-dwellers achieved a comparable level of technology. They had metalworkers skilled in sheet-making, riveting, and casting of copper and bronze, crafts and industries with standardized methods of production, land and sea trade with cultures as far away as Mesopotamia, and well planned cities with water supply and public sanitation systems unequaled until the Romans. Evidence suggests that they may have used a decimal system of measurement. But most remarkable, images of Shiva as Yogeshvara, the Lord of Yoga, suggest that meditation was practiced in a civilization which flourished a millenium before the Vedas were committed to an oral tradition.

If this is so, it would imply that the same systematic attitude the Indus Valley dwellers applied to their technology was applied also to the study of the mind. The was brahmavidya, the "supreme science" - supreme because where other sciences studied the external world, brahmavidya sought knowledge of an underlying reality which would inform all other studies and activities.

Whatever its origins, in the early part of the first millenium B.C. we find clearly stated both the methods and the discoveries of brahmavidya. With this introspective tool the inspired rishis (literally "seers") of ancient India analyzed their awarenesss of human experience to see if there was anything that was absolute. Their findings can be summarized in three statements which Aldous Huxley, following Leibnitz, has called the Perennial Philosophy because they appear in every age and civilization: (1) there is an infinite, changless reality beneath the world of change; (2) this same reality lies at the core of every human personality; (3) the purpose of life is to discover this reality experiencially: that is, to realize God while here on earth. These principals are the interior experiments for realizing them were taught systematically in the "forest academies" of ashrams - a tradition which continues unbroken after some three thousand years.

The discoveries of brahmavidya were systematically committed to memory (and eventually to writing) in the Upanishads, visionary documents that are the earliest and purest statement of the Perennial Philosophy. How many of these prescious records once existed no one knows; a dozen that date from Vedic times have survived as part fo the Hindu canon of authority, the four Vedas. All have one unmistakable hallmark: the vivid stamp of personal mystical experience. These are records of direct encounter with the divine. Tradition calls them shruti; literally "heard," as opposed to learned; they are their own authority. By convention, on the Vedas (including their Upanishads) are considered shruti, based on direct knowledge of God.

According to this definition, all other Indian scriptures - including the Gita - are secondary, depandant on the higher authority of the Vedas. However, this is a conventional distinction and one that might disguise the nature of the document it classifies. In the literal sense the Gita too is shruti, owing its authority not to other scriptures but to the fact that it set down the direct mystical experience of a single author. Shankara, a towering mystic of the ninth century A.D. whose word carries the authority of Augustine, Eckhart, and Aquinas all in one, must have felt this, for in selecting the minimum sources of Hinduism he passed over almost a hundred Upanishads of Vedic authority to choose then central Upanishads, and the Bhagavad Gita.

The Gita, I would argue, is not an integral part of the Mahabharata. It is essentially an Upanishad, and my conjecture is that it was set down by an inspired seer (traditionally Vyasa) and inserted into the epic at the appropriate place. Other elements were added in this way to the Mahabharata, and to other popular secondary scriptures; it is an effective way of preserving new material in an oral tradition. There is also traditional weight behind this idea, for as far back as anyone can trace, each chapter of the Gita has ended with the same formula: "In the Bhagavad-Gita Upanishad, the text on the supreme science [brahmavidya] of yoga, this is the chapter entitled..."

Finally, by way of further support, we can observe that except for its first chapter, which sets the stage, the Gita now only does not develop the action of the Mahabharata but is rather at odds with it. Battle lines are drawn - the climax of decades of dissention -and on the even of combat, Prince Arjuna loses his nerve and asks his charioteer, Krishna, what to do. Then what? Krishna - no ordinary charioteer, but an incarnation of God - enters into some seven hundred verses of sublime instruction on the nature of the soul and its relation to God, the levels of consciousness and reality, the makeup of the phenomenon world, and so on, culminating in a stupendous mystical experience in which he reveals himself to Arjuna as the transcendant Lord of life and death. He counsels Arjuna to be compassionate to friend and enemy alike, to see himself in every person, to suffer others' sorrows as his own. The the Gita is over, the narration picks up again, and battle is joined - a terrible, desperate slaughter compromising everyone's honor, by the end of which Arjuna's side emerges victorious. But almost every man of fighting age on both sides has been slain. Only great genius would have placed the Gita in such a dramatic setting, but it stands out from the rest as a timeless, practical manual for daily living.

To those who take this dramatic setting as part of the spiritual instruction and get entangled in the question of the Gita justifying war, Gandhi had a practical answer: Just base your life on the Gita sincerely and systematically and see if you find killing or even hurting others compatible with its teachings. (He makes the same point of the Sermon on the Mount.) The very heart of the Gita's message is to see the Lord in every creature and act accordingly, and the scripture is full of verses ot spell out what this means:


I am ever present to those who have realized me in every creature. Seeing all life as my manifestation, they are never separated from me. They worship me in the hearts of all, and all their actions proceed from me. Wherever they may live, they abide in me. (6:30-31)

When a person resonds to the joys and sorrows of others as if they were his own, he has attained the highest state of spiritual union. (6:32)

That one I love who is incapable of ill will, who is friendly and compassionate (12:13)

They alone see truly who see the Lord the same in every creature, who see the deathless in the hearts of all that die. Seeing the same Lord everywhere, they do not harm themselves or others. Thus they attain the supreme goal. (13:27-28)

Scholars can debate the point forever, but when the Gita is practiced, I think, it becomes clear that the struggle the Gita is concerned with is the struggle for self-mastery. It was Vyasa's genuis to take the whole great Mahabharata epic and see it as a metaphor for the perennial war between the forces of light and the forces of darkness in every human heart. Arjuna and Krishna are then no longer merely characters in a literary masterpiece. Arjuna becomes Everyman, asking the Lord himself, Sri Krishna, the perennial questions about life and death - not as a philosopher, but as the quintessential man of action. Thus read, the Gita is not an external dialogue but an internal one: btween the ordinary human personality, full of questions and the meaning of life, and our deepest Self, which is divine.

There is, in fact, no other way to read the Gita and grasp it as spiritual instruction. If I could offer one key to understanding this divine dialogue, it would be to remember that it takes place in the depths of consciousness and that Krishna is not some external being, human or superhuman, but the spark of divinity that lies at the core of the human personality. This is not literary or philosophical conjecture; Krishan says as much to Arjuna over and over. "I am the Self in the heart of every creature, Arjuna, and the beginning, middle, and end of their existence" (10:20).

In such statements the Gita distills the essence of the Upanishads, not piecemeal but comprehensively, offering their lofty insights as a manual not of philosophy but of everyday human activity - a handbook of the Perennial Philisophy unique in world history.


Next up
The Upanishadic Background...



posted on Dec, 26 2010 @ 06:09 PM
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reply to post by phiktion
 


I bought that book suggest by ficktion

so i can finely say i understand the gist of hindu thought (seeing this central text would lay down the central theology). 1200 pages long aswell. Thats a' hefty book.



posted on Dec, 27 2010 @ 07:24 AM
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Originally posted by LifeIsEnergy
reply to post by dontreally
 

I would love to converse with you, but to be honest I am not all that interested in Judaism, especially the way you portray it. (Not an attack)


My thoughts exactly, especially this passage he/she wrote earlier:

"Jews and non-Jews are forbidden to each other, because of the different origin of their respective commandments. When these laws are observed, then human relations of all kinds are enhanced by the Divine sanction, and love increases throughout the world"

Sure it is difficult to live with someone of a different faith but it's not impossible unless one makes it so.


You say I am bad at conversing, but maybe that is more relevant to you than me considering I have seen you enter into many arguments on these boards, exponentially more than myself. Is there any way for you to share your thoughts on a subject without giving people a tutorial on Judaism? I hope so, because I am tired of doing this with you. But then again maybe that is my fault more than it is yours, maybe I should just ignore you and allow moderators to deal with it. Anyways, have a good night.


The guy/girl is obviously a bully of the verbal kind, he/she is probably having mental orgasms each time (s)he perceives (s)he has put someone down and the target has some awareness of being put down. I think bullies like that are fascinating, they display their tactics for everyone to see and still believe their power game will not change as such bullies usually believe almost everyone they meet is unintelligent (and never will be intelligent enough to see through their bullying games). Just look at how such a person can genuinely state (s)he has derailed a thread, as if one person can "defeat" many others, how delusional!

Anyways Hare Hare Krishna Krishna :-)




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