New research reveals "writing" dates back over 30,000 years - 26 repeated "signs"!!

Originally posted by Equinox99
What kind of tests have been run to date these drawings back 30,000-50,000 years? I understand there are repeating signs but what is the chance of these being hoaxes?

Non-the-less, Fascinating information. Thanks.

I had the same thought, I'll try and see if I can find out how they date it!

KF

reply to post by davo2012


I'll be breif with this, but, wouldn't it be strange if it turned out that humans had been genetically engineered and taught by aliens and that the new world order that JFK had warned us about was actually true and just around the corner.

Wouldn't it also be strange if the second coming of christ wasn't actually the jesus figure that we were waiting for, what if it was actually ourselves that we were waiting for to wake up and realise our true potential?

It would make sense as to why the elite killed off jesus because of his teachings and then some years later the same elite that killed jesus bring out a book of his teachings blah blah.
Based around putting your faith and belief, your Energy into a... statue or wooden carving instead of investing that Energy in ourselves in order to help ourselves and others.

Truth is stranger than fiction.. as they say.

2012time2growup.ning.com...

reply to post by WHOS READY


sounds about right

reply to post by kiwifoot


Wow, this is simply amazing! Thanks for sharing, star & flag! You know they say there is no where on earth that man hasn't set foot - well that may be true land wise, but when it comes to caves (or any sort of underground structure such as a tunnel etc.) their are MANY of them undiscovered and many of them are hidden.

Imagine what lyes beneath us the land mass is now covering from thousands and thousands of years of the earth shifting, ice ages as well as hot periods, massive rainfall which could shift land as well etc...

Imagine, these symbols may seem simple to us, but to whomever drew them they obviously meant something to them because they took the time to create these paintings/cave drawings. Now, to go further with this, imagine if these were revolutionary symbols to these people, they could have been advanced, we cannot rule that out just because the drawings were simple.

Thousands of years from now, people may look back at graffiti from our generation and think of it as simple but look at our technology - to us it's revolutionary. Just some food for thought.

[edit on 25-2-2010 by highlyoriginal]

reply to post by siahchi


Several of the symbols also bear a great resemblance to the Ogham Alphabet, linked here:
images.google.com...:en-us&oe=UTF-8&rlz=1I7ADFA_en&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=J1uHS6GsAYuWtgfw2ODADw&sa=X&oi=image _result_group&ct=title&resnum=4&ved=0CCEQsAQwAw

The thing that continually amazes me is how modern man always assumes that our ancestors were stupid or not as smart as we are. This is not at all true, they simply lived by a different paradigm.
Perhaps the cave dwellers of 20, 30, 50 or 75,000 years ago were a remnant of the Civilization past. It may be that what we see are signs of the effort to preserve or remember their previous society and to bring mankind back from the brink of extinction. Of course this is pure speculation, but it would be wonderful to explore from the standpoint of accepting that they were every bit as smart in their way as we are today.
I have an idea that probably the caves were known safe-havens and the people of the times were forced to live in migrant bands to a great extent, so that what we see now are messages, one band to the next showing how many people were in the previous party, which way they went, what they found to hunt and where and of course the local dangers that one may encounter.

[edit on 25-2-2010 by ferdberffle] attemt to edit/clean the html, sorry

[edit on 25-2-2010 by ferdberffle]

Originally posted by wylekat
If those are the cave paintings, they are above and beyond the usual artwork, which is usually stick figures and stuff right on the edge of abstract.

Ask any 25 people to draw a horse. See what you get. Being an artist was not a prerequisite of being the "shaman" for the culture.

That said- are they *sure* it's thousands of years old? Having had to study art- the usual progression has been from crude stick figures to more refined art. Now, it wouldn't surprise me to find out history (as usual) is wrong....

Yes, they're sure.

This is the artwork of people who lived a nomadic existence and didn't have much time to sit and ponder and practice. Beautifully rendered art comes with long practice (just look at your earliest sketches!) If you are out chasing down rabbits and digging up cattail roots, you don't have time for practice. You also incorporate your own tribe's symbols into the art and you draw them the way that Mom prefers to see them.

reply to post by kiwifoot


I tend to agree that these are NOT writing, but are instead clan signs or individual marks -- the artist's signing his or her name.

Writing runs in lines (even the Egyptians, who arranged hieroglyphics artistically put them in a line of double symbols), and these marks don't. The presence of the marks in widely varied places at far different times also suggests it's not writing. For instance, we see Egyptian written in an area called Egypt and it's over a 4,000 year period. Sumerian/Babylonian occurs in one area over a few thousand years. Unless it's graffiti, we don't have letters and symbols in wildly different places on the artwork.

So... I'd say "no" on the alphabet, personally. However, clan marks and artist marks are very possible (possibly family marks.)

Originally posted by ferdberffle
reply to post by siahchi

 

Several of the symbols also bear a great resemblance to the Ogham Alphabet, linked here:

I don't see that, actually (I learned to read and write Ogham). But I'm missing what you are probably seeing.

The thing that continually amazes me is how modern man always assumes that our ancestors were stupid or not as smart as we are.

A point that archaeologists and anthropologists and paleontologists keep trying to hammer home. But in the popular culture, primitive people grunt and point and are incredibly stupid.

Perhaps the cave dwellers of 20, 30, 50 or 75,000 years ago were a remnant of the Civilization past.

No evidence of civilizations 100,000 years or older. They'd leave huge traces like farmed areas and evidence in the bones that animals were domesticated.

I have an idea that probably the caves were known safe-havens and the people of the times were forced to live in migrant bands to a great extent, so that what we see now are messages, one band to the next showing how many people were in the previous party, which way they went, what they found to hunt and where and of course the local dangers that one may encounter.

There IS some evidence of this, though "safe havens" is not really what they were. They were temporary living places (for a few months). And yes, it could be personal clan messages (like the signs left by Gypsies in Europe in the 1700-1900 era) or the "hobo signs" here in America. I think that's an excellent suggestion.

reply to post by Byrd


Maps. Maps of what can be found in an area, and where and when.

Not accurate maps, maps like what we draw where what we know is depicted larger or what we find important or know is larger on the drawing.

There are buffalo jumps that were abandonned for long periods of time, and then found again likely by a tribe recognizing local markings in the area when they went through.

Seasonal signs to indicate when herds would be present. Signs depicting water.

Clan signs are likely - however, food and water are an order higher in the hierarchy of needs.

[edit on 2010/3/1 by Aeons]

Originally posted by kiwifoot

Originally posted by Equinox99
What kind of tests have been run to date these drawings back 30,000-50,000 years? I understand there are repeating signs but what is the chance of these being hoaxes?

Non-the-less, Fascinating information. Thanks.

I had the same thought, I'll try and see if I can find out how they date it!

KF

Very interesting article! One thing that I immediately noted, however, is that the dating of the pictorials are being debated.

www.neara.org...

The entire topic really all hinges on the age of the drawings. It would really be nice to get some unrefutable evidence showing thier true age

Well, Kiwi, you did it yet again!! Nice work my man!!

This time Byrd beat me to it, so I will answer those posts I feel a bit "strongly" about, either for or against

To Aliensun:

Early ET influence on humans is GIVEN?? Given by whom?

To wylekat:

If you look at the drawings in the picture tyranny22 posted, they look like a "study" themselves (3 cattle heads - btw, i have not seen this kind of horns, what is that? - 3 horse heads, 3 rhinos - although one is facing the other way). Could it be that someone was trying to learn how to draw these things by copying an existing design? Or, the original artist was trying to "perfect" his technique?

To davo2012:

We can entertain any thought but to insist on something we need some backing. Is there any on ETs visiting us and supposedly teaching us all that we poor, stupid humans couldn't work out for ourselves?
I agree with you that the human language is tens of thousands years old, in fact it may be even hundreds of thousands years old. We are not discussing LANGUAGE here though, we discuss the possibility that WRITING is older than we thought so far.

To ferdberffle:

I have to say that our distant ancestors were NOT as smart as we are, they were smarter - they had to be! Take the average 21st century human and compare with the average 30,000 years ago human. Can any of us survive in a hostile environment, without the technology we are so depended upon? Back then, humans had to be more inventive, more adaptable and, simply put, more tough to just survive. Nowadays we employ technology and its perks to manipulate the environment around us, back then the environment called the shots and humans had to cope. Don't confuse technological advancement with intelligence, to employ technology is to rely on the work of many others, to solve problems by yourself and cope with a mostly hostile world by your wits (unfortunately we cannot claim, as a species, many special physical "strengths" except our intelligence and adaptability) is intelligence. Ancient man was NOT stupid, he was just technologically challenged (as we perceive technology now).

To Byrd:

Good "mark" on these signs not being an alphabet, for that to hold any water they need to be repeated more often and in larger groups - if not all of them together in some kind of arrangement (words of some sort). As signs that carry some meaning though we cannot deny that these marks may carry the "seeds" of writing, combined with the artwork.
On the "safe havens" hypothesis, indeed a very plausible idea. Maybe it was done again, much more recently, in navigation maps ("Here there be monsters", perhaps the cave walls conferred the message 'here there be horses and cows ). Maybe Aeons is on to something

To Oracles:
If the dating method used was to carbon date bones or any man made tool found near the drawings then there is room for debate, the drawings could be older or newer than their "mobile" surroundings. Is there a "concrete" method to date the drawings themselves?

Very interesting stuff.

I gotta say that my intuition is screaming at me here. I dont think this is ANY form of primitive language.

I have no 'proof' but i feel it is more like a series of 'calling cards', with each logo/symbol belonging to a particular group.

Now whether this means that different beings would 'tag' an area after they visited it or whether this means that some kind of culture (be it terrestrial or not) almost 'cataloged' certain elements of each region after visiting it, i dont know.

All i know is that my intuition is screaming at me that this is NOT a precursor for any prehistoric language or writing.

Take it or leave it, that's my 2cents

[edit on 4-3-2010 by srsen]

Coincidental that they number them at 26, they are not less than 30 worldwide
or even more than 20 at any one locale, as they aren't Alphabeticals being much too old
but that they are graphe for concepts (like native American glyphs) is most likely!

We've been able to translate the signs of most ancient peoples (and yes they're simple)
so it's probable that by context of their occurrences and frequency they'll be interpreted!

Thanks OP!


[edit on 2010/3/4 by YeHUaH ELaHaYNU]

Originally posted by Maegnas
Well, Kiwi, you did it yet again!! Nice work my man!!

This time Byrd beat me to it, so I will answer those posts I feel a bit "strongly" about, either for or against

To Oracles:
If the dating method used was to carbon date bones or any man made tool found near the drawings then there is room for debate, the drawings could be older or newer than their "mobile" surroundings. Is there a "concrete" method to date the drawings themselves?

To my understanding, they've used the same method on the paint pigments as they have with artifacts found in the cave. From what I've been able to gather, the dispute arises over stone scrapings, and chemicals used in the samples along with the actual pigment.

I noted that samples were only sent to one lab. I'm a little puzzled as to why samples weren't sent to others outside of France itself!? I think that it would do much to establish a credible date.

I have always been interested with linguistics, and this blows my mind. Even if they were used to label, they are still a form of non-verbal communication, no? That is, of course, assuming this is writing. I wouldn't be surprised to find an even older alphabet, when you see things like the Baghdad Battery or things like that.

I think we will be seeing alot more of this. From what I understand civilized man has been around for a very long time. There are structures and megaliths under the oceans! That means that they have been there since the last ice age. These structures point toward an intelligent, organized society when man was still supposed to be smashing monkeys in the head with rocks!
The Egyptians for example would have had to have vast stores of knowledge to complete their temples, as they are all strategically placed to view equinoxes, star maps etc...
One thing I have noticed is that all these super smart, super spiritual civilisations have just simply dissapeared since the appearance of the Romans and Cathloicism. That is a conspiracy theory all its own....

reply to post by kiwifoot


What a cool thread. Yes you can see them in the mind's eye.

Initially you think it's a chromosome..then you see other symbols as if on a blackboard made of thin film. Usually there's some sort of time tunnel surrounding it.

[edit on 17-3-2010 by davidmann]

Yes! star and flag from me!
This just makes me more positive that there has been advanced civilizations here before us which have been wiped out by somebody else or by themselves!and i believe this history is being kept away from general public, good find! and after studying about oopart:s this hits the spot!
I think well be seeing a lot like this in years to come! truth will eventually come out, even if it means it unearthing itself piece by piece.

Cheers

Originally posted by Oracles
To my understanding, they've used the same method on the paint pigments as they have with artifacts found in the cave. From what I've been able to gather, the dispute arises over stone scrapings, and chemicals used in the samples along with the actual pigment.

That means they would have to date the fat binders used to make the paints. This is VERY chancy, but is sometimes done. Taking samples without doing any damage is very difficult. I don't know that I particularly dispute the dates of the marks -- humans have been around for longer than that, and I certainly feel we can probably find older drawings. What I'd love to hear about is artwork from our 'cousins' the Neanderthals and Homo Heidelbergensis and so forth but dating them would be a real problem because of the 5,000 year limit.

I noted that samples were only sent to one lab. I'm a little puzzled as to why samples weren't sent to others outside of France itself!? I think that it would do much to establish a credible date.

Good call. It would.

reply to post by kiwifoot


Out standing post. I have long thought there were advanced civilizations in the distant past. How advanced, I don't know. Why are they not around today? Because they fell into the trap we all do, in time. They thought they were imortal.