White Sands UFO tracked by Theodolite pulling 20 G's.

Very interesting UFO incident reported in this 1950 edition of True magazine where a UFO was tracked by trained weather observers on a theodolite pulling 20 G's.

The case was also covered in this article on UFOs from LIFE Magazine, April 7, 1952 and the reported flight characteristics of the object appear totaly unprecedented - even by today's standards.

White Sands UFO tracked by theodolite


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STATEMENT OF COMMANDER ROBERT B McLAUGHLIN, USN

On a bright, clear Sunday morning in April, 1949, a detachment of Navy men and a group of scientists released a balloon from a point 57 miles northwest of the White Sands Proving Ground base. They were interested in getting weather data from the upper atmosphere, and as the balloon rose, they charted its flight as usual with a theodolite and a stop watch. There were five observers in all; four of them coordinating the instrument data. One followed the balloon through the theodolite's telescope. One called off the readings. One recorded them, and the fourth man held the watch.

Shortly after the balloon was aloft west of the observation point, the theodolite operator swung his instrument rapidly to the east. A strange object, seen by everyone present, had crossed the path of the balloon. The instrument man, confused, had followed it. Swiftly, one of the scientists grabbed the theodolite and began tracking the missile,an accurate plot of the object's course was recorded.

Analyzing this data later, I can state definitely that:

1. The object, viewed in cross section, was elliptical in shape.


2. It was about 105 feet in diameter.


3. It was flying at an altitude of approximately 56 miles. (This was determined by a ballistics expert. An object at a lower altitude on this particular bright day could not have fitted the data taken. For security reasons, I cannot go deeper into this method of calculating altitude.)


4. Its speed was about 5 miles per second.


5. At the end of its trajectory, it swerved abruptly upward, altering its angle of elevation by 5 degrees - corresponding to an increase in altitude of about 25 miles - in a period of 10 seconds. Rough calculation indicates that a force of more that 20 G's (20 times the pull of gravity) would be required to produce this elevation in this time.


6. The object was visible for 60 seconds.


7. It disappeared at an elevation of 29 degrees.

These impressions I settled on as accurate:

* The Saucer, at the time it was first sighted, had been going at an extremely slow speed, perhaps 1 mile per second.


* Despite the relative slowness, I could not determine its shape, although I judged it was similar in size to Saucer No. 1 because it was visible at an altitude above 25 miles.


* It accelerated to a speed far in excess of anything obtainable with present day rocket motors.


* The object passed within 5 degrees of the sun and was still visible to the naked eye. This would hardly have been true if the the object had been a meteor.


* Again, there was no evidence of a propulsion system.

Close questioning of the observers prior to the official report that went to "Project Saucer" at Wright-Patterson Field in Dayton, Ohio, produced an almost unanimous judgment that the objects was discus shaped and that it was a flat white color. High powered binoculars showed no exhaust trail, no stream of light or other evidence of a propulsions system. And, no sound.


Ufologie Link

NICAP Case directory

Document about the incident sent to the Office of Naval Research - CIA archive:

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From: Commanding Officer and Director

To: The Chief of Naval Operations

Attn: Office of Naval Intelligence

Via: The Chief of Naval Research

Subj: Sighting of Unidentified Object -- Report of

Encl: (A) Statement of C.B. Moore, General Mills
Aeronautical Research, Minneapolis


1. Encl (A) is a statement submitted to this activity by Mr. C. B. Moore (General Mills Aeronautical Research) who sighted and tracked an unidentified object on 24 April 1949 while engaged on Special Devices Center Project P-U-J-1 in the vicinity of White Sands Proving Ground.

2. Mr. Moore's statement is forwarded as significant because of the detailed theodolite tracking data it contains and because the object's variation of azimuth and elevation might indicate some degree of controlled flight.

3. The observer is known to the Special Device Center as a graduate mechanical engineer with an Air Force Reserve captaincy in meteorology. Mr. Moore, prior to his employment by General Mills, headed the New York University constant level balloon research program for the Air Force [i.e., Mogul], and can be considered to be a competent, mature, and highly experienced observer.

R. Ruhsenberger

cc:
(with encl)
Director
Central Intelligence Agency

Link

Statement about the White Sands incident from Captain Edward J. Ruppelt, Chief of Project Bluebook:

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On several occasions during 1948 and 1949, McLaughlin or his crew at the White Sands Proving Ground had made good UFO sightings. The best one was on April 24, 1949, when the commander's crew of engineers, scientists, and technicians were getting ready to launch one of the huge 100-foot-diameter skyhook balloons. It was 10:30 A.M. on an absolutely clear Sunday morning. Prior to the launching, the crew had set up a small weather balloon to check the winds at lower levels. One man was watching the balloon through a theodolite, an instrument similar to a surveyor's transit built around a 25-power telescope, one man was holding a stop watch, and a third had a clipboard to record the measured data.

The crew had tracked the balloon to about 10,000 feet when one of them suddenly shouted and pointed off to the left. The whole crew looked at the part of the sky where the man was excitedly pointing, and there was a UFO. "It didn't appear to be large," one of the scientists later said, "but it was plainly visible. It was easy to see that it was elliptical in shape and had a 'whitish-silver color.'" After taking a split second to realize what they were looking at, one of the men swung the theodolite around to pick up the object, and the timer reset his stop watch. For sixty seconds they tracked the UFO as it moved toward the east. In about fifty-five seconds it had dropped from an angle of elevation of 45 degrees to 25 degrees, then it zoomed upward and in a few seconds it was out of sight. The crew head no sound and the New Mexico desert was so calm that day that they could have heard "a whisper a mile away."

When they reduced the data they had collected, McLaughlin and crew found out that the UFO had been traveling 4 degrees per second. At one time during the observed portion of its flight, the UFO had passed in front of a range of mountains that were visible to the observers. Using this as a check point, they estimated the size of the UFO to be 40 feet wide and 100 feet long, and they computed that the UFO had been at an altitude of 296,000 feet, or 56 miles, when they had first seen it, and that it was traveling 7 miles per second.

Edward J. Ruppelt, Capt.
Project Blue Book

Link

reply to post by karl 12


i remember reading that in a UFO there absolutely has to be some form of inertia-canceling device..something that spins extremely fast (as ufos are often seen spinning) that way when 20 g's are affecting the craft..the inside with the device is virtually unchanged..crazy stuff

Be prepared for the typical "...it happened in '50 so it's not relevant, can't be researched, just hearsay, etc, etc, blah, blah, blah.....".....oh wait, White Sands Proving Ground? Must've been one of ours.............

Thanks again for presenting me with another case to check into that I wasn't too familiar with. I always appreciate seeing a new thread you've started....r

reply to post by karl 12

Something isn't right.

An object 100 feet long at a distance of 56 miles has an angular size of .019 degrees. Since the object was not straight overhead its distance would have been greater than 56 miles (its estimated altitude) and its angular size less. The naked eye can discern things with an angular size of .016 degrees. If the object had been the estimated size and at the estimated distance it would have been barely visible as a speck in the sky (if at all), not:

plainly visible. It was easy to see that it was elliptical in shape and had a 'whitish-silver color.'

Even a jetliner at "only" 39,000 feet can be very difficult to see.


Without knowing the actual size of the object there is no way to estimate its distance (in spite of the statement). Without knowing the distance of the object there is no way to estimate its size. It sounds to me like both the distance and size of the object were overestimated which would in turn lead to an overestimation of its speed. This is a common error.

[edit on 2/23/2010 by Phage]

Theodolite
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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An optical theodolite, manufactured in the Soviet Union in 1958 and used for topographic surveyingA theodolite (pronounced /θiːˈɒdəlаɪt/) is an instrument for measuring both horizontal and vertical angles, as used in triangulation networks. It is a key tool in surveying and engineering work, particularly on inaccessible ground, but theodolites have been adapted for other specialized purposes in fields like meteorology and rocket launch technology. A modern theodolite consists of a movable telescope mounted within two perpendicular axes—the horizontal or trunnion axis, and the vertical axis. When the telescope is pointed at a desired object, the angle of each of these axes can be measured with great precision, typically on the scale of arcseconds.

Any technology that would be able to pull off the travel most UFO believers think of would more than likely need some type of field around it to keep the actual "craft" intact.

Most "clear" shots of UFO are when they are just kind of hovering at moving slowly and about. Anything that would be clocked doing "4. Its speed was about 5 miles per second. " would more than likely be considered travel (not just the idle and slow moving nature).

I think the white and elliptical object they saw could have been some type of reaction of light coming of the fields, which could explain why it was able to have been seen from such a far distance.


Just speculating don't hurt me

[edit on 23-2-2010 by kyle43]

reply to post by liquidself

Yes. I know what a theodolite is. Here's another interesting definition:

An optical instrument used to measure angles in surveying, meteorology, and navigation. In meteorology, it is used to track the motion of a weather balloon by measuring its elevation and azimuth angle. The earliest theodolite consisted of a small mounted telescope that rotated horizontally and vertically; modern versions are sophisticated computerized devices, capable of tracking weather balloons, airplanes, and other moving objects, at distances of up to 20,000 m (65,600 ft).

www.thefreedictionary.com...
Apparently the less modern versions were much more capable?

A theodolite measures angles from an observing location. If you know the size of the object you are tracking those angles (assuming you can measure the angular size of the object) will tell you how far away it is. If you know how far a way an object is the angles will tell you its size. If both of those are unknown a theodolite can tell you nothing about the size, distance, or speed of the object.

In tracking weather balloons, the rate of ascent of the balloon is known. Using this, the angles provide the horizontal direction and speed of the balloon.

We can chart the direction and velocity of winds at various altitudes just by watching balloons. The rate of ascent of a balloon is mostly dependant on the balloon's drag and its "free lift" (the vertical pull of the balloon). We have some degree of control over these these factors, and as a result, know approximately how high our balloon will be at any given time after its release. Given a known height and an angular direction (read off the theodolite) to the balloon, we can fix the horizontal movement component of the balloon's travel as it moves through different altitudes. The horizontal movement is due to the winds blowing the balloon around at the altitudes that the balloon is traveling through.

www.pilotballoon.com...

The point is that you need to have at least one known value. In this case there was none except that at one point the object passed between the observers and a mountain. That is not enough information to come to the conclusions offered. Perhaps the full report would provide more information but without that it makes more sense believe that the object was closer, smaller, and moving slower than estimated than to believe it pulled into a 20G climb.

[edit on 2/23/2010 by Phage]

reply to post by Phage


I didn't see it from what I have read so far, but could it have shown up on radar? And that is how the distance was determined?

reply to post by kyle43

I don't bite...much.

They were very specific about the apparent size of the object (even if it was just a "field"). An object (or "field") of that size, at that distance, would be hardly visible if at all.


[edit on 2/23/2010 by Phage]

reply to post by kyle43

Yes. A confirmed radar contact would provide the distance. With a known distance, the speed could be determined.

reply to post by Phage


Lazily looking through the links and searching for "radar" I found nothing. I would also assume radar would be the only other way back then to really be able to determine distance of a flying object.

reply to post by Phage


Honestly Phage I never said you didnt know what a theodolite was. Fact of the matter is I didnt know what it was till today, Its why I looked at the thread ("is that a type of religious cult?").

I don't have that much of a problem with your conclusion really, but there are some points in the earlier part of the OP that make it more of a "stretchypants" fit; the term "approximately" in reference to the height is used of the object is used in the report. There is this statement:

3. It was flying at an altitude of approximately 56 miles. (This was determined by a ballistics expert. An object at a lower altitude on this particular bright day could not have fitted the data taken). For security reasons, I cannot go deeper into this method of calculating altitude).

There is an implication that some sort of special technique was used to determine data. Maybe that technique is well known now i dont know.
The other thing is this:

A strange object, seen by everyone present, had crossed the path of the balloon. The instrument man, confused, had followed it

If the operator of the theodolite literally went accidentally from the balloon path to the object it seems that it must have crossed paths - possibly giving a known as a good basis for the reading based on the intersection. Admittedly it would have required extremely quick thinking but that is indicated in the text

Swiftly, one of the scientists grabbed the theodolite ...

I get the impression they tracked it as far as they could and felt it was large because it was still visible for being so high. They may not have been able to fully track it so high (maybe or maybe not due to our mysterioius ballistics expertise (though I cant see why fellows like these would make that part up)) but perhaps they could still see it through the telescope.

celebrating200years.noaa.gov...
This theodolite was introduced in 1925 and had range of 60 miles. I admit it is a geological application in the article but I can t see why the US air force would use inferior theodolites for wheather balloons of all things.




[edit on 23-2-2010 by liquidself]

This round trip estimated at 2000 mph:



If I remember correct, I already said once it was 5 stories high
instead of 50 feet high.

reply to post by liquidself

I didn't mean to sound snippy but I was a bit unsure about why you quoted the definition of theodolite.

I did notice that "security" statement and did allude to it. But even assuming there is some secret means of optically determining the altitude of an object of unknown size, one of my points is that an object of that size and distance would not have been easily visible, much less with a discernible shape.

The theodolite operator, tracking a balloon, followed another object (perhaps that other object was sufficiently balloonlike to lead to the confusion). "Crossing paths" is not the same as crossing behind. I suppose it's possible that the object did cross directly behind the balloon but that would be reading something into the description of events that isn't there.

But there seems to be a bit of a conflict in the story.

Shortly after the balloon was aloft west of the observation point, the theodolite operator swung his instrument rapidly to the east. A strange object, seen by everyone present, had crossed the path of the balloon. The instrument man, confused, had followed it.

The crew had tracked the balloon to about 10,000 feet when one of them suddenly shouted and pointed off to the left. The whole crew looked at the part of the sky where the man was excitedly pointing, and there was a UFO.

See the difference?

That statement about a scientist "grabbing" the theodolite is kind of funny. As pointed out, it is a very sensitive (and delicate) instrument. I kind of doubt there would have been much "grabbing" going on. Nothing really significant here but it kind of tickled me.

If the object was as high as claimed when it was first seen (by the group, by naked eye) and if it had the described appearance, it would have had to have been very much larger than 100 x 40 feet. Two specific and contradictory estimates are given (distance and size). This doesn't mean anything was made up but it does cast doubt on the accuracy of the estimates. I have no doubt they saw something but I have very strong doubts that it was moving and accelerating at the rates described.

re: theodolites. Geological surveying and tracking moving objects are two different applications with different requirements.

[edit on 2/23/2010 by Phage]

Deleted as need to read more before commenting !

[edit on 23-2-2010 by chunder]

reply to post by chunder

The only telescope mentioned is that of the theodolite. It was seen with the naked eye by all of the observers.

A strange object, seen by everyone present, had crossed the path of the balloon.

The whole crew looked at the part of the sky where the man was excitedly pointing, and there was a UFO. "It didn't appear to be large," one of the scientists later said, "but it was plainly visible

The object passed in front of a mountain, not behind.

At one time during the observed portion of its flight, the UFO had passed in front of a range of mountains that were visible to the observers.

Snipers also use theodolites to determine such things as the height/range of an object - they are not strictly a surveying tool and do have combat applications. And they can be "grabbed" (despite what Phage would have you believe).

Theodolite in use by spotter/sniper





[edit on 23-2-2010 by Exuberant1]

reply to post by Phage


I did notice the conflict in the story. In the Life magazine article it s Moore who has the theodolite, and he is looking away briefly when he sees the UFO - then he goes to track it. So I suppose (key word) that he could be grabbing his own theodolite. (which doesnt sound so good in a way) I don t know that observers like this could come up with no information in a circumstance like that though ; estimates yes but surely not of zero value. - the articles indicate he "tracked" the ufo, presumably with the theodolite; either he did or he didnt. If he did then from what you say its likely he estimated mostly the speed. I know from experience even a reporter who is trying to get things right actually often gets them wrong so it may be part of the problem, not clear. Its not clear to me that the object was initially 56 miles up either.

I have found another version (perhaps I am beating a dead horse here) but it seems to have slightly different and more accuarate info.

In the end of the 40's, an alternative method to the expensive, highly demanded and rare supersonic wind tunnels to test aerodynamics of supersonic aircraft and rockets was devised by Lieutenant Commander George Hoover of the Office of Naval Research (ONR) Special Devices Center: to take the object to test to stratospheric altitude using a high altitude balloon, drop it and observe its behaviour in the supersonic descent.

Hoover found that the new plastic high-altitude balloons being developed by the General Mills balloon group in Minneapolis could indeed lift significant payloads high enough, and the experiments, designated "9-U-J-1 Free Fall Test Vehicle (FFTV)" started, using three Skyhook plastic balloons of seventy-three feet in diameter when fully inflated, arranged in a cluster and connected to the fifteen foot long projectile by a tether system, and dropping the FFTV at an altitude of about 100,000 feet.

The balloons were launched from near Las Cruces in New Mexico and drift over the White Sands Proving Ground range into a test area where optical and radar tracking systems could observe the test vehicle launched over the range.

On April 24, 1949, a team of White Sands technicians was studying the upper atmosphere from the test area, about three miles north of Arrey, New Mexico. General Mills engineer professor Charles B. Moore - who later became famous due to his involvement the Mogul balloon project in 1947 - with four Navy enlisted men, Chief Akers, and three men named Davidson, Fitzsimmons and Moorman, were launching small neoprene pilot balloons to measure winds directions and wind speeds to help predict the flight path of the actual FFTV Skyhook system scheduled to be launched a few day later.

One of the four Navy enlisted men assisting Moore was observing the pilot balloon through a theodolite. (A theodolite is a triangulation telescope, used to track and measure the angular vertical and horizontal displacement of their target). Moore saw a white object that he thought was the balloon and noticed that the theodolite was pointed toward a different part of the sky. He thought that the enlisted man had lost track of the balloon and pointed it out to him. But the enlisted insisted that he had the balloon in sight, so Moore took over the theodolite and pointed it at this different object. Through the 25-power scope, he could see that it was an ellipsoidal white object with some light yellow. Moore said the object was about three times as long as it was thick, and was about one minute of arc in angular diameter, or when viewed through the 25-power theodolite, would appear about three quarter of the size of the full moon with unaided vision. The object was moving at a rapid angular speed of 5 degrees per second towards the northeast, but before it went out of sight in the northeast, it started to climb in altitude.

Another balloon was launched to determine whether there was a high-speed air current that would have carried the object from southwest to northeast. It was found that there were no air currents moving in that direction, only a weak one moving at right angles to the object's path, and Moore understood that the object had its own flight control.