Greece: Basically a bank run is in full progress

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posted on Feb, 23 2010 @ 05:10 PM
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And the crazy thing is the US's debt level (debt to GDP) is actually higher than Greece's!


U.S. public debt is at 65% of GDP as of 2010.
Greece public debt was at 97% of GDP in 2008. This is the latest figure that I found although just from memory, I think the current number is 127%.

en.wikipedia.org...
en.wikipedia.org...




posted on Feb, 23 2010 @ 05:28 PM
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Is Greece in 2010 Equal to Austria in 1931?


The economic climate in Europe today has worrying parallels with the 1930s, suggests Mike Farrell with aspenIbiz.
It is worth remembering that upheavals in Europe triggered the economic malaise that made the Great Depression “Great”.

Although 1929 is etched into history as being synonymous with the Great Depression, the real tragedy did not get underway until 1931.
The Austrian bank Boden-Kredit-Anstalt was rendered insolvent in the aftermath of the credit boom of the late 1920s. It was “saved” in October 1929 by merging with the stronger Oesterreichische-Credit-Anstalt.
An international syndicate, headed by the Rothschild's of Vienna, that included J.P Morgan and Company, injected new capital into the merged entity. The Austrian Government guaranteed the bad debts of the old bank and the merged entity spent 1930 “muddling through”.
But then in May 1931, the Credit-Anstalt bank collapsed. Some blamed the political climate at the time, with the economic union between Germany and Austria (Zollverein) spooking France.
Others simply stated that Austria had “consumed its capital” with the result that a banking collapse was inevitable.

Whatever the reason, the collapse of Credit-Anstalt triggered a run on German banks by French and US creditors, leading to the forced closure of the German banking system.
London financiers were heavily exposed to German banks, and industry, and were caught out by the banking sector shutdown, which effectively froze their assets.
This in turn caused panic amongst London's foreign creditors and a run on the currency. The pound sterling was overvalued causing England’s major export industries to be uncompetitive.
Unions were heavily represented in these industries and refused a proposal to cut wages.
Unemployment was high and structure of the whole economy was inefficient. England had two choices – austerity or devaluation.
England chose devaluation because the politics of austerity were too hard.
In the 1930's, contagion went from the periphery to the core in very quick time.

Austria folded in May 1931. By September of that year, Britain had gone off the gold standard and devalued the pound sterling. And so went the contagion that crippled the world economically and provided the impetus for Hitler's rise and decades of economic and political turmoil.
The situation in the global economy today is eerily similar.

Greece, a peripheral European economy, is close to defaulting on its debts. Being part of the Eurozone and using the Euro, Greece does not have the option to devalue its currency. And, any default would lead to contagion, as creditors pull funds from other highly indebted countries. The list of targets is well known; Spain, Portugal, Ireland, Italy & England.

As England found in the early 1930s, Greece may find the politics of the EU austerity plan, necessary to prevent default on its debts, to be too hard.
The only other choice left would be to leave the EU and return to the Drachma, its previous currency, so that it could devalue its debts.
If Greece were to return to the Drachma other countries would likely follow and return to their former currencies … and this would bring down the Euro experiment.
This would also usher in another sharp global slowdown as European banks would be pushed towards insolvency by the associated write-downs on sovereign debt.



posted on Feb, 23 2010 @ 06:10 PM
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If this was the begining of the end of the EU then I welcome it, bye bye Euro, bye bye useless migrants, bye bye over inflated prices and my last goodbye to weaker nations like Belgium calling the shots.



posted on Feb, 23 2010 @ 06:23 PM
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reply to post by ncb1397
 


US public debt annually is 83.4% of the GDP, External Debt is 95% of our GDP..



posted on Feb, 23 2010 @ 07:09 PM
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Germany STILL owes Greece 70 billion reparations from World War II. Germany has bought and controls Greece's national telecommunications company OTE, and isn't the German Hochtief which reaps the profits of the Athens airport? Isn't Germany which will be profiting from Greek toll roads for the next 50 years? German companies such as Aldi, Lidl, Bayer and others make huge profits selling to Greeks (the poorest of the EU members) their products at three and five times as much as to the rest of European consumers. (Yes. They buy exactly the same products from the same market chains 50% or 300% more than what it is bought in the rest of Europe)
Did Greece returned back their newly acquired lop-sided German submarines? (Yes, lop-sided submarines are another testimony of the great German innovation) LOL
Also why the mounting pressure to buy the defective Eurofighter jet? (brace yourselves about yet another innovation) When guns required to fire, it has to stay totally without electronics for 10 to 15 seconds. Are they crazy? Who's going to buy that defective piece of crap?


Nr. 8 vom 22. Februar 2010
Betruger in der Euro-Familie article

Greece's deficit is not worse than other countries.
Some figures taken from Frankfurter Algemeine Zeitung (German Newspaper): Total debt of Greece(GR) 179% GDP, Total debt (av.) of EU 175% GDP. Some other countries: Holland 234%, Ireland 222%, Belgium 219%, Spain 207%, Italy 197%. Ireland's external debt is 444% GDP (GR 89%). Japan's public debt was 135,4% GDP in 2000 and 197,2% in 2010 (GR 125% in 2010). Looks like everybody is in debt. So what is the purpose of this vicious attack?

About the OP. It might be true that if this had happened in the US or UK, people would be going bananas, but here Greeks don't seem so eager to panic.

www.youtube.com...
LOL

[edit on 23-2-2010 by spacebot]



posted on Feb, 23 2010 @ 08:02 PM
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reply to post by antonia
 


Hard to see how this is going to unfold, but I think the immediate effect is the bolstering up of the dollar. This hurts the Euro. That is the really only serious challenger to the dominance of the dollar as the currency of reserve. More breathing room for the dollar and a real problem for the EU.



posted on Feb, 23 2010 @ 08:09 PM
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I think what Greece needs is a good ol' fashioned war. War always helps get rid of problems at home. Who could the Greeks attack?



posted on Feb, 23 2010 @ 08:13 PM
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reply to post by leo123
 



Hmmm. Reminds me of the Citibank story:

Citigroup Warns Customers It May Refuse To Allow Withdrawals

Things are looking a bit odd lately...



posted on Feb, 23 2010 @ 08:20 PM
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reply to post by Sibilance
 


Yes, but only for the short term. Considering we do not export much I don't see how it will work out in our favor over the long term.

[edit on 23-2-2010 by antonia]



posted on Feb, 23 2010 @ 08:28 PM
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Maybe the Greeks could be persuaded to invest thier money in U.S. treasury bonds?



posted on Feb, 23 2010 @ 08:37 PM
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reply to post by highlyoriginal
 


YOU just hit the nail on the HEAD!

People - this is - ready for the backlash - what john titor the "hoaxter"

predicted on many forums back in 2001.

He's off a few years prediction wise, but the way predictions go - he's

too damn close. 2008 was "the year we discovered we were all living a lie"

and "by 2010 civil conflict will affect everyone" (paraphrasing).

It's here, in a similar, growing form.

Stay safe, don't get shot in a stupid fashion, and pray for a milder

conflict than it could turn out to be...


[edit on 2/23/2010 by drphilxr]



posted on Feb, 23 2010 @ 08:48 PM
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but the greeks are panicking..

www.guardian.co.uk...


Militant trade unionists blockaded the entrance to the Athens stock exchange today as millions of striking Greek workers prepared to pour on to the streets to protest against austerity measures aimed at ending a debt crisis that has sent tremors through the eurozone.

The demonstration, by protesters affiliated to the communist party, came on the eve of a 24-hour general strike that is expected to bring Greece to a standstill.



online.wsj.com...


Wealthy Greeks are pulling their money out of local banks and sending it abroad, fearing increased government scrutiny on assets and a run on the banks if Athens is forced to turn to the International Monetary Fund, according to private bankers and other people with knowledge of the situation.



posted on Feb, 23 2010 @ 08:53 PM
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apparently spain too:

news.bbc.co.uk...


Thousands of workers have protested in Spain's major cities against government spending cuts and plans to raise the retirement age by two years to 67.

The main demonstration was in Madrid, where union officials said 60,000 protested. Police put the crowd at a much smaller 9,000 people

Protests were held in Madrid, Barcelona and other cities



posted on Feb, 23 2010 @ 09:23 PM
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Originally posted by leo123
www.zerohedge.com...

This is a slowly collapsing house of cards.

"Greeks Scramble To Pull Out €8 Billion From Local Banks As Greece Responds With Money Control Measures

We previously wrote about the possibility of a bank run in Greece following unsubstantiated reports that Greek citizens don't trust the Greek financial system all that much anymore, courtesy of the whole bailout and GDP reporting fraud thing. The rumor was not only just confirmed and also quantified: Dow Jones reports that in the past three months Greeks have moved about €8 billion out of local banks "fearing a possible new tax on bank accounts, increased government scrutiny on assets and a run on the banks if Athens is forced to turn to the International Monetary Fund." This represents over a quarter of the money held by private banks in the country. This also represents about €400 billion in total money leaving the system courtesy of fractional reserve banking and the money multiplier. Yet the worst news for Greeks: money controls are coming. "

[edit on 23-2-2010 by leo123]


Thanks for posting this, I haven't been paying attention this week and I totally forgot about the downgrading of the top 4 banks in Greece today. The article points out that 8 Billion euros has left banks since December and that is about a third of the 30 Billion that is in all the Greeks bank. And adding fractual reserving they said it's about 400 Billion leaving. It's amazing, thats like a third of the countries wealth is gone and the rest is right behind them. If been reading the other articles from some of the posters and such and this is important, Since this is the first of the canaries to get effected in the PIIGS (Portugal, Italy, Ireland, Greece, Spain), it will effect the rest of them and the PIIGS are the canaries to the other western and eastern (haven't talked about them lately have we) countries that loaned and taken loans from these countries. The US isn't going to help because unless a war is about to start in europe, the president doesn't have the political capital to send money to europe when so many people and states and local govt. need money and help, it would be political suicide.

Articles keep coming up in Der Spiegel from the German ministry of Finance about the EU countries coming together with a 20 to 25 Billion Euro bailout, the Ministry spokesperson said it was speculation (and the Greeks need at least 50 billion euros). The Germans and the rest of Europe doesn't want to give money to the Greeks because for one, they lied their way into the EU by using Goldman Sachs to manipulate their finances through swaps. And from then on they have been increasing spending and hiding this junk until they got caught. Also Germany and the others know that the type of austerity that would be required for them to even be considered to get any money they must commit to first in the press and to the EU. But Greece won't do that because as the rest of europe knows and Greece knows, it would be detremential to the country and tear the country apart. Essentially there would be runs on the banks and Greece wouldn't have no control over alot of their finances. The other countries know this and they wouldn't do it, so why would Greece do it.

I think they are trying to find a reason to kick them out by sowing so much conditions that they must do that Greece won't be able to do it, so they have a reason to say well we won't give you the money and besides it's against policy anyway go to the IMF by yourself. And it doesn't help Greece to make a comment like this in this article after seeing German papers making fun of them: " Greek politicians meanwhile voiced anger at German media reports on their economy, with Athens mayor Nikitas Kaklamanis branding as "shameful" a front cover of German magazine Focus showing a statue of Venus giving the finger."

Nikitas Kaklamanis said, "You still owe us 70 billion (euros, 95 billion dollars) for the ruins that you left us with," Kaklamanis said in an open letter to German Chancellor Angela Merkel, referring to compensation for Nazi attacks in World War II.".

I don't think German is going to give them crap.



posted on Feb, 23 2010 @ 09:29 PM
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Indeed an important event does anyone have a time frame before we burst into Anarchy here in the states gotta make sure everything is tip top for no more laws!

We should probably have an off the grid warning system too. Since the internet will be rendered ineffective as soon as TPTB need to put us in the dark.

Watch your 6 =)



posted on Feb, 23 2010 @ 10:06 PM
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all i know is, when they do stuff like that, they are basically telling women, children, old people and handicaps that they prefer they weren't around anymore, because those are the people most impacted by financial crisis, civil unrest and poverty. it's like a I HATE YOU card from the bankers.



posted on Feb, 23 2010 @ 10:26 PM
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Originally posted by undo

... they are basically telling women, children, old people and handicaps that they prefer they weren't around anymore, because those are the people most impacted by financial crisis, civil unrest and poverty. it's like a I HATE YOU card from the bankers.


Bullsh*t most of these people have more money in the bank and live better than I do.

There is so much freakin free money floating around for these people it's sickening.

Quite frankly I'm tired of bustin my ass everyday to support everyone else.

[edit on 23-2-2010 by In nothing we trust]



posted on Feb, 23 2010 @ 10:28 PM
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By my best guess, we as a world are about 6 steps closer to a new World War.

Quite a bit of back and forth between Greece and Germany is definitely not a good thing at this time. Some lines in the sand are being drawn and that only lets pressure build up. A good number of the countries of Europe (and not just EU members) do not need the extra stresses on the cracks.

Here in the US, things could get very messy if other countries of the world start calling in the debt markers of other countries that owe them. France still has huge wartime and post-war debt owed to the US (and probably to England as well) from WWII that they have refused to pay at every mention.

The US internal strife from jobs and State and local governments acting in full money-grubbing mode could spark a riot in any one (several) of the majority of States.

At some point, some one is going to blink and roll those dice just to see happens. All the while trusting that things are going to fall where they may.



posted on Feb, 23 2010 @ 10:43 PM
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Originally posted by ncb1397

And the crazy thing is the US's debt level (debt to GDP) is actually higher than Greece's!


U.S. public debt is at 65% of GDP as of 2010.
Greece public debt was at 97% of GDP in 2008. This is the latest figure that I found although just from memory, I think the current number is 127%.

en.wikipedia.org...
en.wikipedia.org...


More.

www.prnewswire.com...

"Greece Distracting From Real Debt Crisis in U.S."



posted on Feb, 23 2010 @ 11:02 PM
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More.

www.prnewswire.com...

"Greece Distracting From Real Debt Crisis in U.S."


Ok, let's see what you have....



the U.S.'s debt rating remains at AAA, despite the fact that the U.S.'s national debt (including unfunded liabilities) is currently 600% of GDP.


Ok, so debt now includes everything you could possibly owe in the future? We aren't talking about the same thing.



US public debt annually is 83.4% of the GDP, External Debt is 95% of our GDP..


My sourced numbers trump your unsourced ones. Rock simply beats scissors...at least until someone pulls out some paper. Care to give a source so I can actually determine what these numbers mean and why they are larger?

p.s. Public debt is the only number that actually matters. Gross debt counts government agencies, like the social security fund, owning treasuries. The government owes the government money. If I owed myself 5000 dollars for a vacation, you don't subtract that from my net worth...do you? It simply is an anomaly created by how the government moves money around and has no real bearing.

[edit on 23-2-2010 by ncb1397]





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