Eating Alices Cookie didnt take me to Wonderland. Stop telling people to avoid medication!!!

Originally posted by OzWeatherman

Originally posted by loner007
and dont telll me I dont suffer from depression you dont know me. I have suffered from depression most of my life. you talk about ignorance I suggest you look in the mirror to see who is the ignorant one.
and another thing look up a thing called placebo effect.....

[edit on 24-2-2010 by loner007]

Ignorant? I read your article, I got the facts from your side, how is that ignorant?

Your knowledge of depression is quite contrary to the symptons that are well known. Thats why I would assume you didnt have depression. I may be mistaken, but thats how I see it.

Considering you have had it most your life, shouldnt you try and treat it? I had it for 5 years, and after a one year course in medication, ciombined with 5 weeks psychotherapy, im all better.

Obviously your ways arent exactly doing you much good at the moment

*Snip* here let me tell how exactly how I feel...in fact I dont feel much at all..
Death and dying is pretty much what I think most days.
When I see a tragic story or hear I couldnt care less.
I cant be bothered to tidy up my place is such a mess but guess what I couldnt care less.
I dont have any pleasures in life i really couldnt care less
I rarely go out and see my friends or family but I couldnt care less.
If i was told I was to die tomorrow I would say bring it on...

Now do you think I am depressed or not???????
I have come to realise as I said before its people that causes me to be depressed not animals not the tress etc..coz I am at my happiest when I am alone in the middle of a forest...
Nuff said....

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[edit on 2/25/2010 by semperfortis]

reply to post by loner007


loner007, my last post goes to you as well.

Let's clean up the hostility here and be a little more open and considerate of eachother. We can start learning as soon as people stop banging heads together and have some real conversation.

Originally posted by Scarcer
So I'm just saying, rather than being all negative, hostile and

with every other post and becoming hostile to other members that don't always mean to be offensive; try being more optimistic and constructive.

You know what?

Thats a good idea

While we are at it, lets get back on track about what the OP is about, and not the argument of wether or not medication is big pharma scam or not.

Starred

reply to post by Scarcer

Thanks for the star but I have to come to Oz defense here.

It is very hard to change thought patterns. In fact I would say you can't do it without extraordinary will power or maybe hypnosis. Hypnosis can work well on undesirable hard wiring of the brain. Redirecting thoughts that repeat from some trauma or even bad training.
Associative disorders, neurosis, obsessions and the like.
Sometimes hypnosis needs repetition and reinforcing but it can work on these misdirected mind patterns, nonsensical at times which sometimes take over and dominate our thinking.

People cannot easily change their thought patterns. They are what they are. I got a helpful little bit of advice in alcohol rehab (long before it was popular) I will share with anyone in fair mental health who wants to change behaviour or conditioned responses.

It is the "AS IF" trick.


Act "as if" you have it all under control... and your thoughts will follow.
Act "as if" you are happy (try to fake it as if you were a paid actor) and your thoughts will follow.
Act "as if" you are successful.... and your thoughts will follow.
Act "as if" you are patient or it doesn't bother you...and your thoughts will follow.

EDIT: And loner007: you are not alone, it is an epidemic







[edit on 24-2-2010 by rusethorcain]

Well, with all the conversation I have to revise my thoughts a little bit.

I believe people should do their research and strive to spread their knowledge, of course in the process you'll hear medical advice from random sources.

In the end. I believe it's up to the individual to take all opinions into consideration, reason, reflect and do their own research to arrive at their own decision.

For your body, once you grow of age is your responsibility.

And that's where I stand

reply to post by rusethorcain


I have a feeling that when you read my statement that you imagined "change of thought pattern" to be something like a total personality change.

By changing your thought pattern, I mean by ex.

"Wtf is wrong with this person?"

"Wait wait, this isn't right here... calm down."

"Why am I so upset over this?"

Deep breath, put a smile on your face..

"Ok, lets restart. So why does this person think this way?"

Kinda a bad vague example, though you see what I mean?

[edit on 24-2-2010 by Scarcer]

reply to post by Scarcer


I was referring to this post which I guess I misunderstood:

[But looking over your posts, you come across strongly as a negative person. If you suffer from depression, perhaps changing your thought pattern here and double checking yourself to make sure you stay optimistic will undoubtedly help your situation.]

I have seen cases where try as we might to find a natural cure...some people do need the drugs.

Originally posted by rusethorcain
Sugar causes temporary insanity.
Look at alcohol which converts to sugar in your body -makes people crazy.

Forgive me if i've missed the original context in which you said this, if it was to be taken tongue in cheek or what have you, but if you literally mean this then i gotto say thats abit of an oversimplication of how alcohol effects someone isnt it?

Alcohols effect on the brain has nothing to do with it turning into sugar in your body(anyways i always thought the liver converted it to acetic acid, which last time i checked wasn't a sugar). I've always been more under the impression that alcohol effected nerve cells in the brain by inhibiting neurotransmitters and what have you, like how every psychoactive drug has its effects. Also alcohols effect of making people "insane" is more due to its inhibition and judgement impairment/dulling quality rather then it turning into sugar in your body.

And OzWeatherman, anti-depressant method of action has not a thing to do with hormones but rather serotonergic or noradrenergic mechanisms inside the brain.

And to the people who're dead certain big pharma is just quackery and a scam for your money, yes obviously anti-depressants are majorly over presribed, but you can't use that for evidence that anti-depressants dont work, or are the weak way out, or whatever crap you claim, not one single person on earth really understands how depression works, whether it is just habits of negative thought or a physical problem/imbalance inside the brain, so how can you possibly go around saying anti-depressants are bullcrap.

The thing is, of course people should try to work through their problems in life, but some people are 100% depressed for no good reason, or have been trying to work through their problems their whole life, yet to get no where, who are you people to claim anti-depressants are not a viable treatment option.

People who don't beleive in depression have obviously never truely suffered from it. And the people that are 100 percent against pharma, i wonder if you people beleive people who have just had major bone fractures should just use their will power to ignore the pain, or people dying of cancer should just tough it out and not take any anelgesic medication, idiots you lot are.


[edit on 25/2/10 by blayze]

reply to post by blayze


Good points made...

Personally i cant say anti-depressents themselves are bull crap because yes there are some who need them, its the part where they are being over perscribed, and phsychologists are being way too free with putting labels on everyone to get them on the meds..

I hate to reference this but regarding people being brainwashed or ignorant of the facts of life........

The ‘System’
The Matrix is a system, Neo. That system is our enemy, and when you’re inside, and look around, what do you see? Businessmen, Teachers, Lawyers, Carpenters, the very minds of the people we are trying to
save. But until we do, these people are still a part of that system and that makes them our enemy. You have to understand: most of these people are not ready to be unplugged, and many of them are so inured, so
hopelessly dependent on the system, that they will fight to protect it. – Morpheus – The Matrix

From Mary Elizabeth: Croft's book "How I Clobbered Every Bureaucratic Cash-Confiscatory Agency Known to Man"......

Thomas Szasz, in his book Myth of Mental Illness, acknowledges the dualities of life and those things which we believe to be scourges of society are really just creations in order for us to be able to see ourselves as opposites, e.g.: to assuage guilt, attorneys need criminals; to feel healthy, medics need sick patients; to feel erudite, professors need students; to feel righteous, church-goers need sinners; to feel privileged, the rich need the poor; to feel generous, philanthropists need welfare recipients, to feel powerful, the ‘authorities’ need the obedient, etc. We each created the opposite of ‘who we think we are’ in order to believe in our own existence. We’re all just continuously attempting to define and defend our existence. The reverse is also true in that our spirit selves – who we really are – do not require the projection of the opposite of us because there is no duality in reality. We actually do exist apart from our belief about who we think we are. Our ‘fear of death’ is not of death per se but of ceasing to exist as who we think we are.

Those in Medicine don’t know ‘health’
Those in Schooling don’t know ‘education’
Those in Media don’t know the ‘news’ (what's really going on in the world)
Those in Religion don’t know ‘spirituality’
Those in Finance don’t know ‘commerce’
Those in Legal don’t know ‘law

She was a nurse for a time and refers to a book called "A Course in Miracles"

You can download her book for free here on the right:

spiritualeconomicsnow.net...

reply to post by blayze


Alcohol, sugar, while flour your body turns all these into simple sugars, or carbohydrates, same compounds as far as your body is concerned. Makes you crazy. Some people anyway.

I don't think there are many Christian Scientists here. They are against medications for anything. I think what people are really against is pill popping.

Certain people definitely need their meds. As a matter of fact, isn't it about time for y


-damn doorbell

I'm against any sort of pharmaceutical drug or "bandages" as I call them, because they simply mask the problem and create more symptoms so you have to take more of their "medication".

i agree with that. im currently about to become an lvn. i take my NCLEX state board exam in two weeks. but about the medication. its ridiculous. some residents (patients) recieve about 15 pills per dose 3 times a day. ive noticed since ive been here that this stuff is a chain. in other words a "domino". these guys start off with 2 meds. and end up with 15 to treat for all the signs and simptoms, treatment for renal failure (dialysis), and a whole bunch of ****. My personal opinion they dont care about you or your health, its all about the $. Even if there was a cure for cancer or AIDS it will never ever make it to the market. WHY? because all the money these guys make treating signs and symptoms. i currently lost an aunt to cancer. she started with about two pills when she was diagnosed and ended up with about 20 before she died.(pain medication, stool softners, antiulcers, antineoplastics, antidepressants, loop-diuretics to excrete water, blood thinners, about 3 injections per day etc...) my opinion is that she died faster taking all these medications which unfortunately made her lethargic and unresponsive. it was ridiculous

I'm against any sort of pharmaceutical drug or "bandages" as I call them, because they simply mask the problem and create more symptoms so you have to take more of their "medication".

i agree with that. im currently about to become an lvn. i take my NCLEX state board exam in two weeks. but about the medication. its ridiculous. some residents (patients) recieve about 15 pills per dose 3 times a day. ive noticed since ive been here that this stuff is a chain. in other words a "domino". these guys start off with 2 meds. and end up with 15 to treat for all the signs and simptoms, treatment for renal failure (dialysis), and a whole bunch of ****. My personal opinion they dont care about you or your health, its all about the $. Even if there was a cure for cancer or AIDS it will never ever make it to the market. WHY? because all the money these guys make treating signs and symptoms. i currently lost an aunt to cancer. she started with about two pills when she was diagnosed and ended up with about 20 before she died.(pain medication, stool softners, antiulcers, antineoplastics, antidepressants, loop-diuretics to excrete water, blood thinners, about 3 injections per day etc...) my opinion is that she died faster taking all these medications which unfortunately made her lethargic and unresponsive. it was ridiculous

I'm against any sort of pharmaceutical drug or "bandages" as I call them, because they simply mask the problem and create more symptoms so you have to take more of their "medication".

i agree with that. im currently about to become an lvn. i take my NCLEX state board exam in two weeks. but about the medication. its ridiculous. some residents (patients) recieve about 15 pills per dose 3 times a day. ive noticed since ive been here that this stuff is a chain. in other words a "domino". these guys start off with 2 meds. and end up with 15 to treat for all the signs and simptoms, treatment for renal failure (dialysis), and a whole bunch of ****. My personal opinion they dont care about you or your health, its all about the $. Even if there was a cure for cancer or AIDS it will never ever make it to the market. WHY? because all the money these guys make treating signs and symptoms. i currently lost an aunt to cancer. she started with about two pills when she was diagnosed and ended up with about 20 before she died.(pain medication, stool softners, antiulcers, antineoplastics, antidepressants, loop-diuretics to excrete water, blood thinners, about 3 injections per day etc...) my opinion is that she died faster taking all these medications which unfortunately made her lethargic and unresponsive. it was ridiculous

reply to post by rusethorcain


Your knowledge of alcohols method of action is laughable. Firstly, by your logic, the definition of insanity/crazy(you've been using these terms interchangeably i will too just to make my point) is some overexcited children with a fresh dumping of sugar into their blood stream. Now lets all just for a second think about what insanity actually means.

Are you implying that people with skitzophrenia are only suffering this due to abnormally high spikes in blood-sugar levels? And that alcohols psychoactive effects are due to this same principle?

The truth is your little peice of information that you just provided this thread and abovetopsecret and totally wrong and psuedo-science opinion based oversimplified bullshizen.

You use an anology/story of hyper active children, then claim, "alcohol turns to sugar inside your body; makes you insane/crazy". Sorry but you just can't go around making such stupid claims myfriend. What about people that have been awake for days on stimulant drugs, and full into deep temporary drug-induced psychosis, who have not eaten for just as long, is this insanity to do with sugar intake as well?

Please don't litter ATS with your false-facts.



[edit on 25/2/10 by blayze]

I just want to throw my support in with Oz. With many psychiatric disorders physical signs can be seen in the structure of the brain. Through medication and psychotherapy many of these physical abnormalities can be changed. While, medication cannot do it on its own it certainly makes it easier to precipitate these changes. The way that the brain works is that the more a behavior is repeated the more certain neurons fire together, which in turn makes the connection between these neurons stronger, which makes the beahavior more and more ingrained. Most mental disorders can then be traced to certain neurons in the brain misfiring causing abnormal behavior. As time passes, the connections between these neurons grow stronger making it harder to overcome the abnormal behavior, until the point where this abnormal behavior becomes the norm for that person. Now, think how hard it is to change those behaviors you have that you have been doing for years. It takes mental effort to allow a change into your daily schedule. Now, imagine if the behavior you were trying to change was something that you had been doing constantly for at least six months.

When a neuron fires it releases neurotransmitters into the synapse which will then bind with the next neurons in the connection causing them to fire or not, depending on the neurotransmitter. If a network of neurons is misfiring it can then cause levels of a neurotransmitter to be too high or too low. What medication does is it seeks to regulate the release of these neurotransmitters. By bringing these levels into a more normal range it causes the neurons that are misfiring to fire less and the neurons that should be firing to fire more. This then produces a reduction in symptoms if not a complete cessation of symptoms while the patient is on the medication. It is then the patient's job to use this window to exert their will and change the connections that the neurons have made. In this way they can then make permanent changes to the structure of the brain and have it work in a more normal way. Unfortunately, many patients don't put in the work required and instead just rely on medication to control their symptoms. The problem with this is that any drug will have side effects and negative effects on the body if taken for a prolonged period of time.

Of course this is mainly the case with minor psychiatric disorders. Things completely change when you deal with things like schizophrenia and bipolar disorder. In many of these cases, one cannot even attempt to start treating them unless they are taking medication. This is due to the fact that their perception of reality is so skewed that they cannot see anything wrong with their thought process and as a result a psychologist cannot with them in a meaningful way.

In the end psychiatric medication makes it possible for many health care professionals to actually help people suffering from mental disorders. While our knowledge of how the brain works is still incomplete, the advances we have made have allowed for better medication to be designed. Unfortunately, any medication released to the public will be ten years behind the technology because that is how long it takes for a drug to be approved, at least by the FDA. In the end, many arguments against medication do not stem from the medication itself, but with people who over rely on it. It s designed to help ease symptoms so a person can then seek more long term solutions. Unfortunately, many people still see going to a psychologist and talking about their problems as a sign of being crazy, whereas seeing a psychiatrist and getting prescribed a pill just means that there's something biologically wrong with you as opposed to there being some inherent flaw in your personality.

Originally posted by blayze
Alcohols effect on the brain has nothing to do with it turning into sugar in your body(anyways i always thought the liver converted it to acetic acid, which last time i checked wasn't a sugar).

Actually, the carbohydrates are what gets turned into sugar. Its mostly in beer though. This is what causes people to have beer bellys

And OzWeatherman, anti-depressant method of action has not a thing to do with hormones but rather serotonergic or noradrenergic mechanisms inside the brain.

Yes, I agree with that.....did more research, so what i said earlier was not accurate. Apologies for that

And OzWeatherman, anti-depressant method of action has not a thing to do with hormones but rather serotonergic or noradrenergic mechanisms inside the brain.

To be fair the only real difference between neurotransmitters and hormones is where they are acting in the body. In fact, many neurotransmitters are found elsewhere in the body as hormones and any basic psychopharmacology class will discuss both.

reply to post by blayze


I know it is hard to believe sugar can have such a dramatic affect on people and children but it can affect mood, disposition and attitude. It can make people hyperactive and even have heart palpitations. Technically you may not consider someone crazy but if their baseline behavior is calm and rational and after a dose of sugar they get irritated and irrational I would call that crazy.
I don't think that is the clinical term for their hyperactivity and irritability but by crazy I mean without reason or logic. To me it is crazy just picking up the sugar in the first place but I don't think anyone is going to get locked up in an insane asylum just for that.
Sorry you are having such a bad day. I would be willing to bet it is diet related. You are what you eat you know. I think someone has been living on junk food and just plain crap a little too long...am I right?
I can tell by the irritation in your writing that something is really bothering you. Do you drink a lot of soft drinks? In addition to all that sugar (16 teaspoonful) soft drinks have tons of artificial ingredients which can make you miserable and leave you feeling bloated. All those chemicals can cause acne and a variety of skin conditions not to mention mysterious itching and restless leg syndrome.
For that you should try a little quinine water. clears it up faster than the medication you can get from the doctor and at half the price!
Try going without sugar for a week and see if you don't feel calmer and in better spirits.
I am going to recommend fresh fruits and vegetables and the little ignore button on the lower left hand side of the screen if you'd rather not read the witty clever, and all too true bits of knowledge I have picked up along the way. If you had been eating properly and staying away from the sugar you would have thought of that yourself.
After just a little while being on a healthy diet you will be yourself in no time.

reply to post by blayze



True schizophrenia is very rare. You probably don't have that. Chances are better you have S.A.D or are bi polar, I mean if you have anything other than just a bad personality. Of course you need a doctor to diagnose you, and you need to stay on the drugs. Whatever you do - don't stop taking your meds!

And since you are new here I will help you out a little. You get to say whatever you want here on ATS. You don't have to spell correctly or even make complete or coherent sentences and try as you might to tell other people what to do or say...they may not listen to you.




[edit on 26-2-2010 by rusethorcain]