Have people lost their minds? Violence against the Goverment will get you nowhere.

reply to post by TheCoffinman


Great, so now we are comparing Joe Stack to the founding fathers.
Give me a break.

reply to post by Erasurehead


The current estimate is actually in excess of 300 million firearms in the hands of the American populace, including the 14 million purchased in 2009. Automatic weapons are overrated as fighting instruments. Usually used to create supression fire only. Also, with all the technology and firepower available to the US Military and they still can't defeat a lesser adversary with virtually no technology beyond cell phones. You give all of this firepower and technology way too much credit. It is not as insurmountable as you think.

reply to post by triplescorpio


Will you shut up about John Adams? You're love for him is insane. He was one of the ONLY Founding Fathers that never advocated the war and he was also the man that proposed the Alien and Sedition Acts during his Presidency - something the the rest of the Founding Fathers denied due to it being unconstitutional.

Of course you would site Adams alone when referring to the Founding Fathers, because he was a man apart. He was the only one that tried to make it illegal to overthrow or talk back about your government. Guess what, even though Jefferson saved us from that mess, years later, Adams got his wish and gave us the country we have today.


reply to post by Erasurehead

300 million? That would mean every man, woman and child would be armed and against the government.

Not really, I can use two guns at once as long as they aren't long barreled rifles. I am sure that other men could accomplish that task as well. 300 million people don't own guns, but there are 300 million guns between the people that do. That puts our military to shame.

Grenade launchers and AK-47s are a bit more effective than 12 guage shotguns.

Hmm, there you go still thinking the populace are armed with hunting rifles. I know people around my area that have .50 caliber sniper rifles, M16s and the whole like. This is in a tiny town mind you. I can only imagine where the REAL gun enthusiasts are located. Plus, I'm not going to even figure in the amount of illegal guns are out in circulation.



Don't worry about fighting a "professional fighting force". An American Revolution is not likely to repeat the same mistakes twice. If the colonists would have fought every single battle, muzzle to muzzle with the red coats - the tides of history would have changed. Luckily, a good man by the name of Francis Marion was kind enough to implement a tactic known as guerrilla warfare, a tactic which won the American Revolution.

Originally posted by Erasurehead

Originally posted by mrbarber
reply to post by Erasurehead

 

What makes you think all we have are hunting rifles? Second, we have 300 million of them, hunting or not. If a bunch of rag-tag insurgents can run our troops ragged in Afganistan and Iraq, what do you think these 300 million weapons could do?

300 million? That would mean every man, woman and child would be armed and against the government. I doubt you would even see 100,000 people take up arms. Sure some might have automatic weapons but most just have hunting weapons which you would find not to be very effective against a professional fighting force. Insurgents in Iraq and Afganistan at least have some decent firepower to fight with. Grenade launchers and AK-47s are a bit more effective than 12 guage shotguns.

He didnt say 300 million armed people. He said 300 million weapons. Which is actually probably a fairly conservative estimate.

Many have hunting weapons. Many have handguns. Many have a little of each.

Many have weapons that are illegal in this country, and many more would be able to quickly get their hands on them.

The way you are speaking, I take it that it is your goal to discourage people from defending their freedom. And that REEKS.

reply to post by gwydionblack


We are on the same side. We both believe something needs to be done about the tyrannical federal government. I just believe non-violence means should be tried first before resorting to armed conflict. Violence should be the last resort. I don't think we have reached that point yet.

People can't even get motivated enough to interrupt their lives to attend a protest march, how many people do you think are pissed off enough to take up arms against the government? At the moment I think you would be lucky to even get 10 thousand. There may be 300 million guns but you can only use one at at time.

Originally posted by mrbarber
reply to post by Erasurehead

 

The current estimate is actually in excess of 300 million firearms in the hands of the American populace, including the 14 million purchased in 2009. Automatic weapons are overrated as fighting instruments. Usually used to create supression fire only. Also, with all the technology and firepower available to the US Military and they still can't defeat a lesser adversary with virtually no technology beyond cell phones. You give all of this firepower and technology way too much credit. It is not as insurmountable as you think.

The thing is, this is another war tactic, same as the one I mentioned before, and we are seeing the proof right here that it works.

'They' WANT you to think you couldnt win. 'They' WANT you to believe your weapons are useless against theirs.

Originally posted by captaintyinknots

Originally posted by Erasurehead

Originally posted by mrbarber
reply to post by Erasurehead

 

What makes you think all we have are hunting rifles? Second, we have 300 million of them, hunting or not. If a bunch of rag-tag insurgents can run our troops ragged in Afganistan and Iraq, what do you think these 300 million weapons could do?

300 million? That would mean every man, woman and child would be armed and against the government. I doubt you would even see 100,000 people take up arms. Sure some might have automatic weapons but most just have hunting weapons which you would find not to be very effective against a professional fighting force. Insurgents in Iraq and Afganistan at least have some decent firepower to fight with. Grenade launchers and AK-47s are a bit more effective than 12 guage shotguns.

He didnt say 300 million armed people. He said 300 million weapons. Which is actually probably a fairly conservative estimate.

Many have hunting weapons. Many have handguns. Many have a little of each.

Many have weapons that are illegal in this country, and many more would be able to quickly get their hands on them.

The way you are speaking, I take it that it is your goal to discourage people from defending their freedom. And that REEKS.

I am not discouraging people from defending their freedom. Where did you get that from? Did I say that everyone should just bend over an accept tyranny?

I am saying there are other ways to accomplish defending freedoms without resorting to killing people first. Even the founding fathers tried all non-violent means to become independent from the British before resorting to war.

Wow, its almost like you people would think it would be cool to start a civil war. Like its a #ing game or something.

Organize protests on Washington. Camp out in front of the White House and refuse to leave until illegal laws are repealed. Stand your ground when the police start cracking heads when trying to clear the crowd. Some people will get hurt and even arrested. That is the sacrifice people need to be willing to make. When images of the authorities beating up fellow citizens and our children show up on the evening news the public opinion will turn against the government. That is how to get the public on your side. It worked in the 60's during the anti-war movement and it can work today.

reply to post by Erasurehead


OK I just want to point out that if you organized a protest on washington and police started "cracking heads" don't you think that would lead to violence??? Isn't you post about not being violent?? so what your saying is that people should organize a protest so police can crack us on our heads so that the American people will get mad and "turn against the government" which would become violent anyways??? Makes "perfect" sense to me!!

Originally posted by Erasurehead

Originally posted by captaintyinknots

Originally posted by Erasurehead

Originally posted by mrbarber
reply to post by Erasurehead

 

What makes you think all we have are hunting rifles? Second, we have 300 million of them, hunting or not. If a bunch of rag-tag insurgents can run our troops ragged in Afganistan and Iraq, what do you think these 300 million weapons could do?

300 million? That would mean every man, woman and child would be armed and against the government. I doubt you would even see 100,000 people take up arms. Sure some might have automatic weapons but most just have hunting weapons which you would find not to be very effective against a professional fighting force. Insurgents in Iraq and Afganistan at least have some decent firepower to fight with. Grenade launchers and AK-47s are a bit more effective than 12 guage shotguns.

He didnt say 300 million armed people. He said 300 million weapons. Which is actually probably a fairly conservative estimate.

Many have hunting weapons. Many have handguns. Many have a little of each.

Many have weapons that are illegal in this country, and many more would be able to quickly get their hands on them.

The way you are speaking, I take it that it is your goal to discourage people from defending their freedom. And that REEKS.

I am not discouraging people from defending their freedom. Where did you get that from? Did I say that everyone should just bend over an accept tyranny?

I am saying there are other ways to accomplish defending freedoms without resorting to killing people first. Even the founding fathers tried all non-violent means to become independent from the British before resorting to war.

Wow, its almost like you people would think it would be cool to start a civil war. Like its a #ing game or something.

You obviously havent read my previous posts. I have said multiple times that I only advocate violence as a last resort.

I HAVE said, however, that is is foolish, and intentional, that people think they couldnt win that fight.

They most certainly could.

reply to post by gwydionblack


I have seen his name(JOHN ADAMS) used a bunch in regard to this idiots suicide.
I guess u support the oklahoma bomber?he must be a freedom fighter he blew up a federal building with a day care center in it what a hero!!
and my guess is you have no real understanding of american history? you just cherry pick and try to put your opinions in where facts are needed.
Read a book is all i can tell you learn who George Washington was before the war A GENERAL ! not some guy trying to f the system and when it fd him back he killed two innocent people that could very well have been your freinds and family. your not right .your comparisons are misguided and you generally seem angry trying to make such obsurd comparisons.

reply to post by Erasurehead


I agree and it is clear that peaceful means are being used. One guy offing himself at the expense of the IRS Office in Austin does not suggest that a broadbased revolution has begun. That said, there are powers in place who have an agenda, an agenda that is worth trillions of dollars. We can and should utilize all peaceful means possible because it is right to do so. I don't think anyone disagrees. However, the power and money involved are not likely to acquiesce to protest marches and elections. We have to consider and prepare ourselves for the other option, also because it is right to do so.

[edit on 19-2-2010 by mrbarber]

A suggestion on how to frame the outrage..does this work?

I am an individual member of We, as in We the People of the United States of America who believes that the Federal Government is corrupt, criminal, tyrannical, unconstitutional, and owned by multinational corporations and criminals with money while advocating and practicing torture.

I withdraw allegiance and support for that entity which ceased being the legal government of these United States, when elected officials betrayed their oath to the US Constitution becoming a tyrannical Government of the Money, for the Money and by the Money.

[edit on 19-2-2010 by seataka]

Remember the Jews in Germany? I believe that they were non violent as well. After all no one could possibly be that determined to rule the world!

Research who really is in charge. It is quite laughable when you really look at it. Study up on Eugenics and see who is behind that.

When are people going to wake up?

respectfully

reluctantpawn

reply to post by Erasurehead


You bring up a key issue - motivation. I've stated this before - people will never be motivated enough for peaceful change. They will all be silent and obedient.

But what happens when some guy goes and crashes a plane into a building in the name of that change... well then people take notice. All of a sudden the woodwork explodes and people who wouldn't have had any care in the world all of a sudden seem to do so.

Violence isn't a means to change, it is a motivator. Even if a revolution ousted all the corrupted officials, people would need to be motivated to make to RIGHT change. If not it is all for nothing.

Violence has proven to be the best manipulator in the world. You need only open a history book to any page and see that. You believe non violent means should be tried - I believe they have ALREADY been tried. This isn't the first period of history where people have stood up and tried to voice their opinions to government. They ignored us for the last 100 years, and they ignore us today. Why is it that people just refuse to see that simple fact?

And it is fact. The only time that government has listened to the people in the past is through threats of violence or violence itself. You can't name one scenario in the last 100 years where peaceful protesters got what they wanted without violent counterparts. I dare you to do so.



reply to post by triplescorpio


Now... onto you.

I have seen his name(JOHN ADAMS) used a bunch in regard to this idiots suicide.

I haven't. And if I did I would call them idiots. Why don't you provide a suicide bomber who claimed the name of John Adams.

I guess u support the oklahoma bomber?he must be a freedom fighter he blew up a federal building with a day care center in it what a hero!!

It is people like you that will never understand, who are unable to discern emotions from ideals. No matter who McVey blew up, he did it for a reason and a point against the government. Does that make it ok to kill children and innocent people, no it doesn't but that doesn't take away from the point he was making none the less.

The same goes for Joseph Stack. Sure his means were inappropriate but that doesn't take the sheer truth away from the points he listed in his Manifesto. You continue to let emotion guide you away from logical answers and that is what leads us as a people into enslavement.

and my guess is you have no real understanding of american history? you just cherry pick and try to put your opinions in where facts are needed.

Your guess would be wrong but I'm not about to try to defend something I can't prove over the internet. All I can tell you is that I may not have the best understanding of American history, however, I can promise you that without a shadow of a doubt I probably have more of an understand of The American Revolution and the founding fathers then most of the people do. As I stated in another topic - you have the Romanticised view of the revolution and the Founding Fathers because over time writers, poets, and sensationist writers CREATED that view.

your comparisons are misguided and you generally seem angry trying to make such obsurd comparisons.

I am angry. If anybody isn't angry they should take a look around and think to themselves "why the hell not?" You have every right to be angry and so you should.

However, I am renouned in my circles for keeping a level head in my anger. I don't spout off absurd claims or tend to believe my opinion as fact as most people do. I understand people see differently than me, however, I don't stand when people REFUSE to look at the other side of the table and are trapped within their own social ideology.

I look at history and evidence. History shows the violent revolution has been successfully implemented on numerous occasions, and that all peaceful revolutions that exacted change have had violent counterparts next to them.

What do those of the anti-revolution look at? They look at selfishness. The only reason they don't want a revolution is because they will possibly lose their "fat, dumb, and happy" lifestyle that big brother has allowed them to have. Good for them, however, America wasn't meant to be the land of the lazy, ignorant, and selfish. The men and women of history laid their lives and reputations on the line for something greater then their materialistic possessions. People back then weren't afraid of a revolution because it would away their "entertainment".

Priorities have been destroyed. It is time to reinstate priorities back into the manifold of society. No longer will people be given support and sustenance by this government for doing absolutely nothing. While those people sit by and continue to do nothing, myself and others will take arms and we will fight.

We will hear complains and the nay sayers saying how "We're gonna lose" or "It's a waste of time" but myself, knowing the history of the American Revolution will only smile as history repeats itself. And after that, we will begin to win. We will begin to push forward and the people of nothing will start to reassess their positions in live and the stance they took. In the end the ideology of "something for nothing" that has grown through these states will die with the last corrupt official on capital hill. At last people will have no choice but to care about their futures once again, the way it should be.


Misguided? Maybe in your eyes. But I have the graces of God above and history on my side. What do you have? That's right. A ballot box. The ballot box that THEY have given you. But you don't even realize that the ballot box is in your head. It isn't real. You only think it is real so you can maintain your composure.

One day you, and all others who choose to follow the path of 'John Adams' will realize that his cousin, Sam, had the right idea. Yeah good old Samuel Adams, one of the greatest domestic terrorists ever to live.

"Any people that would give up liberty for a little temporary safety deserves neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin



Theft by Deception



" Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide"

-= The Works of John Adams, Second President of the United States, Charles Francis Adams, editor (Boston: Charles C. Little and James Brown, 1850), Vol. VI, p. 484.

The man that flew a plane into the IRS building was no hero, he was a fool! Plain and simple. Perhaps he didn't have much to live for and cared very little about his family, I don't know all the circumstances. In that case his actions were justified but I doubt they will have a significant impact on the tea party movement and on the few disgruntled americans that know and actually give a # about anything.

reply to post by Erasurehead


You'd be suprised how deadly accurate a 12 gauge shotgun is. Not to mention bolt action sniper rifles and hand guns. A force of 10,000 armed citizens marching to DC the government would have no way of controlling that. There is not enough police officers available and the military is sworn to protect citizens against enemies foreign and domestic. That march of armed citizens would have to have a clear and non-violent message, but would also come with a warning that if force is necessary it will happen. I can guarantee that "their" backup would be ineffective. This is why I spend quite a bit of time target practicing. 12 gauge rifled hollow point slugs will drop you in 1 shot dead, as well as hollow point hand gun ammo. My practice with a hand gun i can hit vital areas in the chest as well as head shots over 75 feet away.

-Fed up with the government

1) Guy doesn't like to pay taxes.
2) Guy spends 30yrs trying to evade having to pay taxes.
3) Guy fails.
4) Guy freaks out.
5) Guy flies plane into a building like an Al-Qeada terrorist, risking the lives of innocent people.

No matter how you put it, he was a total lunatic...and we should all be grateful he's now dead without harming anyone. He could have killed innocent people, and accepted this!! He also left his family behind to fight on their own...what a coward!

Originally posted by bigshow
reply to post by Erasurehead

 

You'd be suprised how deadly accurate a 12 gauge shotgun is. Not to mention bolt action sniper rifles and hand guns. A force of 10,000 armed citizens marching to DC the government would have no way of controlling that. There is not enough police officers available and the military is sworn to protect citizens against enemies foreign and domestic. That march of armed citizens would have to have a clear and non-violent message, but would also come with a warning that if force is necessary it will happen. I can guarantee that "their" backup would be ineffective. This is why I spend quite a bit of time target practicing. 12 gauge rifled hollow point slugs will drop you in 1 shot dead, as well as hollow point hand gun ammo. My practice with a hand gun i can hit vital areas in the chest as well as head shots over 75 feet away.

-Fed up with the government

You and that lunatic would have gotten along well

Maybe you should fly a plane into a building too. Imagine, so much more effective than shooting someone from 75 feet away...awesome!!

[edit on 19-2-2010 by MrXYZ]

Originally posted by OldDragger
Those that praise this suicidal coward ARE A LUNATIC FRINGE!

The lunatic fringe, participating on ATS?? Nooooooooooooooo...

[edit on 19-2-2010 by Paroxysm]