Norway Spiral created by Eiscat (New Evidence)

reply to post by tauristercus


Well, I don't care what team you support, you have to give it to him...Tauristercus gave me a damn good answer. Nicely done.

[edit on 1-3-2010 by EvolvedMinistry]

Originally posted by tauristercus

Originally posted by Wolfenz
reply to post by tauristercus

 

pretty fast on that reply 37 minutes or did you thought the same thing ?

or is there a team working with you ?

it all conjuncture but remember this it might trigger something the viewer this thread has not noticed before


www.sgo.fi...

37 mins was more than sufficient time to read through your links and very quickly isolate the pertinent points of interest ... experiment launched ... experiment failed ... no further launches since - what else is there to say ?

As for your above link ... what's it's relevance ?

Sodankylä site is one of the receiving sites of the incoherent scatter radar system ... and thats ALL it is. It's job is to RECEIVE !

and im asking what ( IF ) the receiver becomes a transmitter!

what did they close the facility for a whole year ? from march 2009 to feb2010


Sodankylä is the closest to the white sea from what i have seen in google maps

just picture that for a moment
if that facility WAS able to TRANSMIT that much power as the one in Tromso and was the lead seeing that all the Facility's that have 32m steerable dish are IDENTICAL except for tromso with 2 klystrons and Longyearbyen with 16 klystrons that can transmit and receive

the spec's again of the dishes
e7.eiscat.se...

the description of what is the most need equipment needed for the dish to transmit
en.wikipedia.org...

if this was possible in Sodankylä

grasping at straws!

the only a missile team please tell how a perfect spiral and a constant clockwise rotation ( with a slight wobble ) can go on for 12 minutes duration time or even 6 min with out going total out of control

I personally have not seen this in real life or a video to back up that fact

any of you rocket scientist or military personal or background seen any like this of a fail rocket / missile doing the same please direct me in show where the location of a site pdf video etc..

if this is a missile its beyond our knowledge of technology for the most of us
for every action there is a reaction example > recoil


ohh by the way for all you ats members ! ! you can ignore me if you want but look at this ! on october 27 2009

Head lines !!!!!!
Experimental Russian ICBM Would Violate START, Senator Says Jon Kyl (R-Ariz.) www.globalsecuritynewswire.org...

a little snippit of interest from the above link


Meanwhile, a defense industry insider pinned recent failures of Russia's experimental Bulava submarine-launched ballistic missile on problem's with the weapon's steering system, United Press International reported yesterday (see GSN, Oct. 15)

The weapon, which has failed in six of 11 flight tests, is intended to arm Russia's new Borei-class submarines and to form a key component of Moscow's nuclear deterrent. It is designed to carry as many as 10 independently targeted nuclear warheads up to 5,000 miles (United Press International, Oct. 26)

well who knows interesting tho!

well from seeing this violation of the ICBM in question on that day of 12/09/09 if it was that missile that cause the norway spiral


excuse me if my grammer and spelling is out of wack

reply to post by Wolfenz


You first have to show how those radar dishes can create the phenomenon you ascribe to it - it is not for anyone else to debunk.

How can the spiral be so nearly perfect and last so long? We've been over this before. Please, for the love of god, read the threads you post in. The spiral was formed in SPACE, where distances are very large, and it was caused by a small, fast-moving object. What's so hard to understand about that?

Several actual rocket experts have said what we saw was entirely congruous with a failed ICBM launch. I'd hazard a guess that they know more about this than you.

Originally posted by davesidious

We've been over this before. Please, for the love of god, read the threads you post in. ....What's so hard to understand about that?

Once again you are resorting to schoolyard debate tactics.

You are taunting your fellow member and insulting him.

Perhaps you should take note of the members here who manage to engage in discussions without denigrating their fellow members.

I'm sure you'll find some way to justify your behaviour to yourself - but you should know that this does affect your credibility.

reply to post by Exuberant1


He's asking the same questions again and again and again, which have been answered before. I'm simply trying to point out that constantly ignoring answers he's not interested in is not helping this discussion at all. Surely the purpose of a discussion is to cover ground, and once covered, move on. Otherwise the discussion will stagnate and simply be a bunch of useless pages covering, and re-covering the exact same points again.

I'm not taunting him, and I'm not insulting him. His question was already answered in this exact same thread, and yet he keeps asking.

Schoolyard debate tactics? Hardly.

Hey Wolf-

Can you remind me again where we're getting the 12 min duration time from? Is that from eye witness testimony or actual video? The longest clip of the spiral I've seen is under a minute long....I imagine this may have been covered already but to go back and find it in this thread would be tedious at best... thanks in advance for any info

Originally posted by Wolfenz

the only a missile team please tell how a perfect spiral and a constant clockwise rotation ( with a slight wobble ) can go on for 12 minutes duration time or even 6 min with out going total out of control

The stills below are from a minuteman III launch video I posted on the last page, so in case you missed it, here they are with the clip posted beneath.

This is final stage separation of the reentry vehicle. Now we still don't know, AFAIK, what the nature of the actual failure of the Bulava was, but we do know that something went wrong in its 3rd stage-- remember too the Bulava is equipped with 4 stabilizing thrusters- a misfire with any one of these could very well have played a role in this as well

Perhaps the Bulava has similar capabilities with it's reentry vehicle and suffered from a failure with an early firing of its spin gas generators (supposing it even has them)... All speculation on my part here, but you can't dismiss the stark similarities- gas ejection from 2 nozzles spewing in spiral form, from a 3rd stage separation, in space....

Better to watch the video clip...

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/3ca121c8d7fc.png[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/3f415c690df7.png[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/fed2322633de.png[/atsimg]

video here, 3:53 mark

Would you consider this as a possible answer to your question about how a missile could create a perfect clockwise spinning spiral in space? If not could you elaborate why this explanation fails more than your radar explanation? or maybe you can post clips of EISCAT doing this...

[edit on 2-3-2010 by PhotonEffect]

reply to post by PhotonEffect


Not to mention ANY body in space ejecting something laterally, not directly away from its centre of gravity will create a perfect spiral (which that video is a good demonstration of). That is from Newton's first law of motion. The Bulava is touted by Russia as the most maneuverable ICBM the world has ever seen, which would mean it will have to have the ability to adjust its course, which will require ejecting something laterally.

reply to post by tauristercus


Tauristercus, sorry for the late reply, I've been pretty busy the last days.

I reviewed your post and I agree that there definately is a large mountain blocking the line of sight from EISCAT to at least the lower part of the spiral event.

So EISCAT indeed seems out of the question as being responsible for the spiral event. Good job.

I must say I still think the spiral was a separate event, not caused by the Bulava, no proof, just my gut feeling.

reply to post by Wolfenz


Wolfenz, the receiver can actually transmit. Don't let them convince you otherwise.

reply to post by Exuberant1


Well done. Thank you for keeping this thread intelligent. It seems that Davesidious refuses to act in a professional and intellectual manner. I'm glad others are pointing this out.

reply to post by EvolvedMinistry


Yes, but Wolfenz has yet to show how the equipment is capable of producing anything even close to the phenomenon we saw. The fact it can transmit, when that has yet to even be demonstrated, is moot.

reply to post by EvolvedMinistry


Pointing out when people can't even be bothered to read the thread in which they are posting is only serving to help the discussion.

You calling me unprofessional (even though I'm not being paid to do this) and not intellectual, however, is down-right insulting.

MOD NOTE.

The personal back and forth will stop now. Warning are next.

The topic is, since some of you seem to have forgotten, is:

Norway spiral created by Eiscat(New Evidence).

Back on topic.

reply to post by PhotonEffect


The effect in that video does look similar indeed, but the exhausts are used for two seconds, would it have enough propellant to keep going for minutes?

Also, I think Tauristercus also showed that the spiral event took place at much lower altitudes than where the reentry vehicle comes into action.

[edit on 2-3-2010 by Point of No Return]

reply to post by Point of No Return


The Bulava missile failed, so the point in its altitude where it should start to fire is of little consequence, as we'd have to start to pass judgement on what's allowed to fail in the launch, and what isn't in order to draw conclusions from such an observation. As for whether it has enough fuel? It's likely, as the third stage of the Bulava is considerably more maneuverable than the Minuteman II, as it is designed to penetrate missile defences that simply didn't exist when the Minuteman IIs were made.

Even if it wasn't boosters on the rocket that caused the spiral, the video shows how simply ejecting material from a point (two in this case) on the side of a missile will cause it to spin perfectly (again, thanks to Newton's first law of motion), which was Wolfenz's question (how can a missile make a perfect spiral).

Originally posted by PhotonEffect
Hey Wolf-

Can you remind me again where we're getting the 12 min duration time from? Is that from eye witness testimony or actual video? The longest clip of the spiral I've seen is under a minute long....I imagine this may have been covered already but to go back and find it in this thread would be tedious at best... thanks in advance for any info

Originally posted by Wolfenz

the only a missile team please tell how a perfect spiral and a constant clockwise rotation ( with a slight wobble ) can go on for 12 minutes duration time or even 6 min with out going total out of control

The stills below are from a minuteman III launch video I posted on the last page, so in case you missed it, here they are with the clip posted beneath.

This is final stage separation of the reentry vehicle. Now we still don't know, AFAIK, what the nature of the actual failure of the Bulava was, but we do know that something went wrong in its 3rd stage-- remember too the Bulava is equipped with 4 stabilizing thrusters- a misfire with any one of these could very well have played a role in this as well

Perhaps the Bulava has similar capabilities with it's reentry vehicle and suffered from a failure with an early firing of its spin gas generators (supposing it even has them)... All speculation on my part here, but you can't dismiss the stark similarities- gas ejection from 2 nozzles spewing in spiral form, from a 3rd stage separation, in space....

Better to watch the video clip...

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/3ca121c8d7fc.png[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/3f415c690df7.png[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/fed2322633de.png[/atsimg]

video here, 3:53 mark

Would you consider this as a possible answer to your question about how a missile could create a perfect clockwise spinning spiral in space? If not could you elaborate why this explanation fails more than your radar explanation? or maybe you can post clips of EISCAT doing this...

[edit on 2-3-2010 by PhotonEffect]

i would say its very close but from all the videos of the norway spiral

it does not look like it was spining like a football < american football

it looks more like a nose to tail spin ( end over end) but the NISSE Experimental rocket as i posted before a couple pages back ? does in fact say while spinning it has a vibration ( like a gyro ? ) ( that is what has got me thinking ) for what purpose of the vibration i don't know yet did t that russian icbm had the same effect ( why ? ) i don't know

as some people claim this in some simulation or animation pics

but for an actual authentic photograph or video as of yet , i have not seen a side view of the norway spiral at all .. what did it look like ( side view )

if it was spinning as you said it was like a foot ball the effect would like a cone shape desent

www2.zbrushcentral.com...

i would believe but ats member taur ( math man that can do awsome calculations and i mean that ) and others as some of the animation pics ive seen shows a balance like pancake effect which one is correct ? i dont know personally

picture of pancake like
www.spellconsulting.com...

source :: www.spellconsulting.com...

closest ive seen of a missile making a spiral photo below

www.rockets.jeffhove.com...

all to perfect norway spiral picture

siderealview.files.wordpress.com...

and the Thailand
4.bp.blogspot.com... china spiral






[edit on 2-3-2010 by Wolfenz]

reply to post by EvolvedMinistry


Interesting. I'm a new member here at ats. A current student of film considering the events of the Norwegian Spiral. I am interested in this event in the sense that I feel it could make for an incredible wake up call to the public. Is science going in the direction that is best for all? I think of the late great Michael Crichton; prior to his early death due to cancer; his books took on this subject (not his latest ghostwritten work, Pirate latitudes) seem to be in this same vein of thought. Genetic engineering, companies patenting your genes, and global warming; these critiques all call into question the direction we are heading. Fear has been used to long to control the masses and silence them.

reply to post by davesidious

The Bulava missile failed, so the point in its altitude where it should start to fire is of little consequence, as we'd have to start to pass judgement on what's allowed to fail in the launch, and what isn't in order to draw conclusions from such an observation.

The Russians said it was a 3rd stage failure, but the spiral started below 200 kms, if I recall correct, 800 kms below it's apogee, where the reentry vehicle would be operating.

It would still be inside the rocket at that time, so jeah, it does matter.

As for whether it has enough fuel? It's likely, as the third stage of the Bulava is considerably more maneuverable than the Minuteman II, as it is designed to penetrate missile defences that simply didn't exist when the Minuteman IIs were made.

I was talking about the boosters that spin the re-entry vehicle, in the video it takes 2 seconds, I doubt they can create a spiral for minutes on end.

Even if it wasn't boosters on the rocket that caused the spiral, the video shows how simply ejecting material from a point (two in this case) on the side of a missile will cause it to spin perfectly (again, thanks to Newton's first law of motion), which was Wolfenz's question (how can a missile make a perfect spiral).

I responded to Photon's suggestion of it being the Bulava's re-entry vehicle, not to you.

But since I am now, it is getting a bit old that you're throwing that Newton first law of motion around.

You say that two random holes in a container of fuel, would create this perfect spiral, like it's normal.

Are these random holes the same size, are they positioned somewhat opposite to one another?

If they were next to one and other, it wouldn't spin would it?

It's not that simple to say it's just physics.

And please don't respond to my replies to other posters with arguments that are irrelevant to said replies, it is stagnating and just plain annoying tbh.

reply to post by Point of No Return


The third stage would still be at the tip of the rocket, covered by a thin, small shroud. If it had a failure, as even the Russians have said, it's fair to accept it could have jettisoned its shroud (either on purpose or due to rockets held within firing), allowing the two contra-positioned stabilising rockets (or independently-linked maneuvering rockets) to fire even before apogee. We're not talking about a perfectly-functioning rocket, after all.

The Bulava's MIRV has the most advanced maneuverability of any ICBM, apparently. That translates, directly, into the amount of fuel it has. Russia leads the field in ICBM technology and research, so it's not out of whack to accept that. Especially as they're announcing their Bulava project to the world, which they wouldn't do if it wasn't something special. After all, each high-profile weapons project is as much a propaganda tool as it is a weapon.

The holes might not be random - as I've said before, it's far from unthinkable that the third stage maneuvering rockets fired early, which would certainly account for the spiral. And being "next to each other" might make it spin, it all depends on the angle of the ejection. Also bear in mind that the whole ICBM has built-in inertial stabilisers, designed to keep a level flight should the rocket encounter any turbulence or other perturbation of its trajectory. Those would easily counter a lop-sided ejection of material from the third stage (be it on purpose or accidental) by adjusting the motion of the correctly-firing stage. That would result in a 'wobble' or secondary spiral of said stage, which is exactly what we saw (the blue 'corkscrew'). The stabilisers will do anything to keep the missile in as level a flight as possible.

The nature of ICBMs, and their basic functionality, is well understood across the world. It's what kept the world from destroying itself in the 1980s - knowing what would rain down on your cities should the red button be pushed.

My reply was entirely relevant. I wouldn't have written it otherwise. Please don't take me for a fool - I'm here to get to the truth. If someone asks someone questions, and that person is not online to answer, and I know the answers, I'll chime in. As I'm not answering from some pre-supposed bias, I'm rather sure whoever I'm answering for will not have a problem with it.

The entire idea of the Bulava explanation isn't exotic, or difficult to understand. It's a mixture of the basic principles every single ICBM has had since 1950, Newton's laws of motion, operation in a vacuum, the need of not having one's missile destroyed, and the desire to land warheads wherever the aggressor wants.

Originally posted by smokeyB27
reply to post by EvolvedMinistry

 

Interesting. I'm a new member here at ats. A current student of film considering the events of the Norwegian Spiral. I am interested in this event in the sense that I feel it could make for an incredible wake up call to the public. Is science going in the direction that is best for all? I think of the late great Michael Crichton; prior to his early death due to cancer; his books took on this subject (not his latest ghostwritten work, Pirate latitudes) seem to be in this same vein of thought. Genetic engineering, companies patenting your genes, and global warming; these critiques all call into question the direction we are heading. Fear has been used to long to control the masses and silence them.

I am in agreement with you. There are plenty of new things happening on this earth that seems to be equating to something bigger. Very interesting times that we live in.

reply to post by Point of No Return

Excellently stated Point of No Return. Its getting old with some of the tactics used by Davesidious. Hopefully the mods will handle him soon enough.