If the first shots of the second American Revolution are fired, who are valid targets?

reply to post by AlreadyGone


Alright, fair enough. Hopefully, if any such thing were to come to pass, it would turn out that way you see it.

reply to post by whatukno


I'm advocating violence. I'll be the first to admit it. It is a last resort. We have weighed all other options.

As far as the whole signature collection goes, let me know how that goes. I'm sure you will be at the top in no time, changing the corrupt officials views left and right. I wound wait for you... but we've already been waiting for the guys that started doing that in the 70's. Yeah... they didn't get too far either...

Calling for the violent overthrow and destruction of the government because of a belief in a specific dogma.

A specific dogma... yes, but it is the same dogma the country was founded on. We're the Founding Fathers NOT acting on the belief in a specific dogma?

Just change the Koran with the Constitution and the Federalist Papers and you have the same exact thing.

Well, I own a Koran and I don't exactly see where the Jihad extremists get their orders from. The book preaches about peace throughout so I don't find it too bad.

The Constitution is simply a piece of paper. It isn't a scripture. All the Constitution is there for is to list the rights that we already have as human beings - first and foremost - and secondly - to lay down a system of government that is fair and controlled by the people.

How that is ANYTHING like the ideals of radical Islam is beyond me.


reply to post by Someone336


Sure. Why not? It is a free country. However, personal opinion should be subject to just that - personal opinion and not unjust legislation. Just because one person doesn't believe in gay marriage doesn't mean that everybody should be barred from that. Too much legislation in our current society makes choices for people when in reality the people should be able to make choices for themselves.

AlreadyGone basically laid it out. True freedom.

How I long for that day...

reply to post by Someone336


I don't want to push my ideologies on anyone. I believe we can agree to disagree...civilly even. Mutual respect, we can find a common ground, although our views may differ...we can say thank you, but no thank you.

To me, that is what makes America special... at least it used to. What you do at your house is your business, when we dine in the same restuarant... enjoy yourself, just be mindful of your neighbors.... so to speak.

I guess thats kind of a Libertarian viewpoint.

I am against big government...if you want to start a business, it shouldn't take hours of paperwork to do so, along with countless fees. If you want to just work for someone... you shouldn't be penalized and taxed for overtime pay...or a part-time job so you can go on a nice vacation. If you do well in life...investments, stocks, entreprenurship...you shouldn't be punitively taxed for your hard work. If I want to eat nachos, drink beer, and drive a gas guzzling cadddy...so beit. That's my right...if I want to eat tofu and sprouts and drive a prius..ok, thats cool too.

That's all...live and let live.....but don't tell me how, and punish me if I don't. That's when we have problems... and the revolution begins.

Originally posted by whatukno

So instead of going out like me and collecting signatures to be on this Novembers ballot, trying to do the right thing and changing this government through the non violent and constitutional means that we have at our disposal,

That's great, go ahead and get on the ballot, and be the change.
I (sincerely) hope that'a all it takes.

But keep this in mind,
rarely in history is it the case where one individual, working within a corrupt system, is the lone cause for change.

They may be the one who is celebrated later in history,
but there is usually a violent, or potentially violent force working toward the same goal as the non-violent individual.

Martin L. King came into the spotlight shortly after the assassination of Malcolm X.
The assassination of X, however, was the cause of the rise of the Black Panther Party.

During the second and third decades of the twentieth century, Jews were lobbying the Brits for a partition of Palestine.
In the background, several violent groups were also working toward that outcome, even carrying out assassinations against British royalty.

Ghandi himself advocated non-violence and civil disobedience during the Indian revolution against the Brits.

The list could go on, but the point is that while many advocate for peaceful non-violent change, the ones who seem to get the furthest have people willing to do violence operating toward the same end.

One must compliment the other.

Originally posted by Wolf321
I'm not looking for individual names, but positions or groups, and justification behind these choices.

My I direct you to an old thread of mine from some months ago -- I Abstain In 2008: The Second American Revolution

The time has come for all patriots to revive the spirit of liberty and make clear the mandate of the people, we no longer accept the insult this nation has become toward those who birthed the first revolution. And for the fist time in history, another revolution is not only possible but winnable.

The only clear message is that of registered voters refusing to vote in overwhelming numbers. Perhaps to the point of arriving at the polls and demonstrating our disaffection at each and every polling place in the nation.

We have no opportunity for a revolution where violence of any type is a viable option. Visible, visceral, and overwhelming show of public solidarity is the only solution.

Originally posted by Wolf321


What or who would constitute a valid target?

What a cool question.

Any person who attempts in any way to harm a government official or member of law enforcement would be hunted.

A person engaging in or inciting violence among the civilian populace would be shot on sight.( In a large scale emergency sense)

All other laws would be followed as usual with little or no interuption to society and its development.

The people will continue to provide for and protect thier families.

Democratic government wouldnt change. VOTE!! Rally, Protest, do what you have to do, just dont try to physically hurt anyone.

Worry about your neighbors, keep your eyes open.

reply to post by psyko45


I don't want a Democracy.

I want a Republic.

We are supposed to be a Republic.

I just hope that YOU wouldn't be one of the "hunters" in your first group as they would sadly fall into the waterfall category of my group.

You nailed it! I don't agree with this thread at all, its too much. Collaborating with people about a hypothetical situation where you plan to take out people who don't agree with you is jacked up!

You said this...

"Let me preface this by saying that I am not advocating violent actions against or insurrection. Additionally, I'm not sure if this is the best forum for the discussion, so please move if needed. I had plenty of reservations about this post, but I have yet to see a topic or subject that cannot be discussed philosophically.

that being said...

I respect your right to have a discussion "philosophically" and all but straight up, this thread is bait. So all crazies who want to hypothetically start a revolution, please post here so we can put your ass on the terrorist watch list.


BTW, All of what Ive said in the post is completely philosophical of course.

Edit to add: This was in response to the spot on post by whatukno on the first page. Reply didn't work for some reason.




[edit on 18-2-2010 by Digital_Reality]

[edit on 19-2-2010 by Digital_Reality]

reply to post by Digital_Reality


No that second quote was me, not Wolf.

I understand we have similar avatars, but I assure you - I am the violent one not he.

reply to post by gwydionblack


HA! whops, well im talking about both of you in that case.

Edit to add: You two have almost the same Avatar. Thats funny



[edit on 19-2-2010 by Digital_Reality]

Originally posted by gwydionblack
reply to post by psyko45

 

I just hope that YOU wouldn't be one of the "hunters" in your first group as they would sadly fall into the waterfall category of my group.

That would depend on how close to home it got or if I just happened to be in the area.

Alright I'll bite...Whats the waterfall category? If you want a republic use democracy to get one.

[edit on 19-2-2010 by psyko45]

reply to post by Oaktree

But keep this in mind,
rarely in history is it the case where one individual, working within a corrupt system, is the lone cause for change.

I think you missed my point. I don't want to be the lone engine of change. I want to be one of many that have gotten themselves elected for the specific purpose of bringing government back under constitutional control. I can't do it alone, but I can do it if I am able to work together with people with the same goal.

Right now you have the opportunity to be the change you want to see. You have the ability to go out just like me and get yourself on the ballot.

Wouldn't that be better than a violent war?

To me it makes much more sense than a violent revolution. Maybe I am over-idealistic, maybe I do believe in the Constitution too much.

I will tell you what I don't believe, I don't believe in jihadists who claim that the only way out is through violence and killing. This country is not that bad off in my opinion. I think that people that are wishing and begging for a violent revolution to start are just blood thirsty jackasses who think it would be cool to go around and start killing people.

These people in my opinion are nothing more than 12 year old kids with angst issues at the government. They have no actual plan for after their revolution. They wouldn't know how to run a government. They just want to kill for killings sake.

But there are those of us that actually believe in this government, this republic, and our Constitution, who also have decided enough is enough, and are willing to make the sacrifices necessary to resolve the issues that plague our government. But want to do so through the right means and the right channels.

The sickening apathy that people have shown for a long time is now manifesting itself in misdirected rage, and worse yet, incorrect thinking.

reply to post by Digital_Reality



You can't really talk about BOTH of us in that regard. Wolf is not inciting or egging on violence in any way. I am. Big difference. I don't want him taking the flak for what I said.

That being clarified... revolting against the government makes me a terrorist?

Is that illegal?

Exhibit A:

The Declaration of Independence

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shown that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security.

So yeah, that basically says that not only is it our right, but our duty. I'm pretty sure the current government mold fits with that description.


The right to revolt such governments, however, does not stem from a political document or a privilege we are given - it is an inalienable right. We are subject as our own keepers to overthrow any body that does not succumb to our rights.

Of course the government will SAY it is a bad thing. To them it is. They want to stay in power even if they are in the wrong. But people fail to realize that we don't have to listen to what the government says if it is not in accordance with the will of the people.

Terrorist is a fantasy word created as a label, no better than those label words used on races in the past (and sadly sometimes yet today).


reply to post by psyko45


My ideology is that no one needs to be hurt as long as they don't stand in the way of restoring the Republic. If civilians or innocent people are hurt during a revolution, it certainly won't be on my watch.

However, those innocent people can become the guilty if they choose to side with the opposition. By siding with the corrupt politicians and defending them, you become a part of a cascading group of people that become enemies by default. Basically, the equivalent of British loyalists in the Revolutionary War.

I understand that the big dogs will sic the little dogs on the revolutionaries, however, we as humans are capable of making the choice. Do we side with what is easy - or do we side with what is RIGHT? The people that have to make that choice will be part of the waterfall category. They have 3 choices. They can join our cause and fight against tyranny to restore the Republic for which it stands. They can step aside and go back to their families, unharmed and unaffected. Or they can fight against the revolution.

Ultimately, in war, those are are not with you are against you. Tis the sad reality.

I think that any bank that is involved in gross usary and raiding the public coffers needs to be included as part of the problem. IE Federal Reserve, Goldman Sachs.

reply to post by gwydionblack


Yea yea yea, here is where the revolutionary pulls out the declaration of independence to show that they have a right to start blowing people away in the streets.

Childish saber rattling, because you are angry at a government for what? Being elected Constitutionally?

What? Is there a problem with running yourself? Getting elected yourself, and changing what is wrong in this government?

Wait! Don't tell me, it's a conspiracy and you wouldn't be elected because you aren't THEM!

So your only solution is to start blindly killing people because that is the only way you see to effect change?

I have serious doubts that you want to fix this government through your revolution. My thoughts is that you just want an excuse to start blowing people away. You don't have any clue what to do afterwards, because in your heart you don't believe you would survive. So it doesn't matter to you what happens afterwards.

It's juvenile angst against authority, combined with fundamentalist ritualistic dogma. Simply put, it's a bunch of [snip]

You want real change, get yourself elected to office, change it yourself, see if you really have what it takes to be a leader and fix what is wrong in this country.

reply to post by gwydionblack


I get it.

You want to start a revolution and he wants to philosophically talk about targeting people.

Both are bad taste in conversations.
The power of voting is stronger than you think. Why do you think they spend all of that money on campaigning? Because everyones vote counts.

We don't have to target anyone or start a revolution. Thats the beauty of the system. We can get together as people and vote the bad apples out and the good ones in.

reply to post by whatukno



There are people currently laying down their lives in defense of OUR Constitution and Republic, due to orders handed down by OUR government.

When you say:

But there are those of us that actually believe in this government, this republic, and our Constitution, who also have decided enough is enough, and are willing to make the sacrifices necessary to resolve the issues that plague our government. But want to do so through the right means and the right channels.

It seems as if you feel that those who would choose to lay down their lives, at home or abroad, do not believe in our government, Republic, and Constitution as strongly as you.

That may be true regarding our current government.

The fact that one does not believe in this government is completely seperate from whether one believes in OUR Republic and Constitution.

The fact that you have been running for government for some time now (2008, right?) trying to change things "from the inside" proves that you do not believe in our government as much as you claim.


[edit on 19-2-2010 by Oaktree]

reply to post by whatukno


I agree 100% brother.

I have already posted on ATS, outlining the failures of any form of violent revolution.

Our legal system, our government, and our electorial process, are there for us to use to seek the change that people want.

A violent revolution in America has a ZERO percent chance of being successful.

The only way a Revolution in America is going to occur is by going through the non-violent and legal processes that our Constitution has outlined for us.

I AM on the ballot for November! I paid the money and I am putting in my campaign work in hopes of being elected, because that is how I am going to make my world better.
For me, for my family, for my neighbors, for you, and for my country.

All politicians are not worthless bottom feeders that are out to destroy America.

There are plenty of us who will not cower to the threats. We will not bend for the lobbyist. We will not turn away from confrontation. We will not sit idly by and allow our country to be destroyed by greedy immoral self centered scum any longer.

We've seen the carnage. We've seen the actions. We've seen the deceit.

And we have answered the tolling of the Liberty Bell.

reply to post by whatukno


"Sounds just like the people that we are at war with in the middle east.

Just change the Koran with the Constitution and the Federalist Papers and you have the same exact thing".


Perhaps it sounds that way to you is because both groups are being oppressed by the same evil empire. Both groups just want their own self-determination...their FREEDOM.

They just haven't started flying predator drones over the states....yet.

On topic... I think it sucks we are even having these types of discussions... those that have brought us to this point will indeed pay the price, either physically or spiritually.
perhaps both.


EVERY branch of government, including the un-official 4th branch the media have conspired against, and have sold us out!
Throw in the banking institutions, and the globalist corps...


Take your pick...none of them could honestly say they didn't play their part.


[edit on 19-2-2010 by TaZCoN]

Originally posted by gwydionblack
reply to post by Digital_Reality

 

Terrorist is a fantasy word created as a label, no better than those label words used on races in the past (and sadly sometimes yet today).
reply to post by psyko45

 

However, those innocent people can become the guilty if they choose to side with the opposition.

They can join our cause and fight against tyranny to restore the Republic for which it stands.

They can step aside and go back to their families, unharmed and unaffected. Or they can fight against the revolution.

Terrorist is a person who uses fear of traumatic physical harm to non-combatant men women and children in the name of war or to obtain political objectices.

Is the fight against tyranny of which you speak one that uses fear of violence agaist citezens to accomplish your objective?

The innocent become guilty when they become terrorist and not citezens. As of now your cause is innocent. So I would agree that innocent peaceful instigators of political change could indeed become guilty when any type of violence is used against a system that has a vote. PEACEFUL DEMONSTRATION

Go back to thier familes unharmed and unaffected?

If you sanction and participate in violence in this 'revolution' you will surely perish, you know this dont you? And your family will be among many others on both sides that are both harmed and affected.