Greek/EU Crisis - Why not blame the Greeks?

I have been following various threads regarding the Euro/Greek economy crisis and I am completely astounded that 90% of the ATS posters would rather blame European bankers than the Greek government and people. The previous government lied about almost everything regarding its economic status. The Greek people have become addicted to an economic lifestyle that the Greek economy can't sustain. If the EU is to blame for this, it is in accepting Greek membership to begin with. Neither Greece nor Portugal was ready to accept the terms for membership, and the EU economics wizards chose to look the other way. Sovereignty is an issue only if you are a believer in 19th century libertarianism (many, especially in the US, choose to live in the imaginary frontier west rather than the modern global market). Otherwise it is simply contract law.

So, if California goes bankrupt, as it appears nearly ready to do, you'd be okay with DC sending the senators and representatives of California home?

Why not blame both sides? It takes two to tango.

I am pretty sure I have heard they have not been solvent in x amt. of years. So this was a long time coming. No, do not blame the average consumer or your next door neighbor. It's all the bank's fault.

reply to post by Office 4256


I'm Greek and the Greeks are to blame here, not the EU. The only thing the EU can be blamed for is letting Greece into the EU in the first place. Greece was never about to comply with the economic criteria the EU placed on them. They flat out never intended to comply. You can't "make" a Greek do anything!

I lived in Greece for a part of last year and I can tell you first hand a couple of things.

First is that there are three distinct parts of Greece. The rural Greece, the urban Greece and the island Greece.

Rural Greece is quite healthy. They don't give a rip about EU membership. They have a very nice quality of life working the land, eating terrific food and living in small communities. These folks are some of the kindest, most generous people you'd ever meet. They are pretty much totally self sufficient and really don't rely on the government for much, other than utilities and roads.

Island Greeks are pretty much of a tourist society coupled with the above. Times are tough for these folks in an economic down-turn, but they like rural Greeks don't rely all that much on the government with the exception of infrastructure. EU membership means a lot to them as it makes it much easier for Europeans to travel to Greece.

The urban Greeks are a disaster. They don't work. Huge numbers of them sit in tavernas most of the day sipping coffee or cocktails and play dominoes. They are the folks who run the country and have come to rely on the massive public assistance programs, limited work weeks, lengthy paid vacations etc. These folks love being in the EU because with a central bank, Greece was able to be supported by the Euro which enabled them to spend, spend and spend. These folks are the ones that will strike and riot. The Greeks have been living in dreamland for a few decades and now young folks are realizing that something is going to have change and that they won't be able to sit in the local taverna with their buddys all day like their fathers did and they are pissed off.

The Greeks have nobody to blame but themselves.

The only reason that they were let into the EU in the first place was to enable rich Europeans to buy property on the Greek islands. Prior to EU membership, you had to prove some Greek blood to be able to buy property in Greece. Once they joined the EU, any European could buy property and tons did. The fastest growing place in the entire EU is a tiny town in Crete, Plaka. Believe me, there aren't many Greeks buying those houses.

Now the EU is screwed. Ireland, Portugal and Spain are right behind Greece. If the EU starts fooling around with these countries, the refugee problem in the other EU member states will be a disaster. They are going to have to bail them out and the Greeks will just laugh and continue to do what Greeks have always done and that is what ever the hell they want to do.

reply to post by Office 4256


I do blame the Greeks.

Socialism is not an excuse to bankrupt yourself and then plea for help.

But, I blame the EU, because it's the EU .. and they are basically trying to kick Greece while it's down. The one thing that makes the EU much different than the US, is when a EU states cannot operate according to the EU's demands, they will essentially cut you off from the rest, fend for your self .. and if that doesn't work, apparently with the new Lisbon Treaty, they will just take over your government and "teach you" how to be ruled.

Think of it like a play they set up the stage and then the actors in this case the "Greeks" take the stage. This is nothing more than show and it has been set up for one reason and only the men behind the curtain know what it is. Maybe it is to take away more freedoms maybe it is to set something else up who knows they are so good we don't even see it coming we are truly screwed.


The funny thing is back in the last great financial disaster Germany ended up being a beacon of hope for alot of people in Europe. And before you say that is not true look at the flower wars. So once again Europe seems to be turning to Germany? Kind of makes you wonder does it not. Germany can never and I mean never have power to any great degree just like Japan can not either. We must learn form history instead of pushing it aside and only looking towards the future.

[edit on 19-2-2010 by Subjective Truth]

reply to post by Subjective Truth


Now it's Germany's fault...

Greek MPs lash out at Germany over debt crisis

Greek opposition lawmakers said on Thursday that Germans should pay reparations for their World War Two occupation of Greece before criticising the country over its yawning fiscal deficits.

Demanding a bailout because of the damage done in WWII...

Now that's stretching it...

Peace

reply to post by operation mindcrime


I think you missed the point it is very hard for me to draw pictures so I will write a little slower.

Germany did not cause this but Germany might very well be the savior. And The last time in history Germany was a savior bad things happened. If you need for me to explain it in greater detail let me know. It is just an idea I would not bet the farm on it. But that is why ATS is great because you can discuss idea's right?

I place a lot of blame on the social engineering that has taken place across the globe to create a society that makes nothing and consumes everything.. a real receipe for disaster..

So in this regard I can not blame the Greek people, I can blame corrupt govs, banks and coporates that speculate on whole countries, and line their own pockets in the process.

As much as I am NOT a Francophile, I do appreciate the fact that the Élysée Palace does support building/keeping alive French infrastructure and manufacturing, unlike say, hmmm Downing street (and most other Govs)

We have become a society of wasters and consumers, and until we start to create and make things again how on earth will we (IMHO that covers most nations at the mo) be able to repay these bailouts let alone ever be able to balance the books..

reply to post by Subjective Truth


So you think Germany is even considering bailing out Greece?

Merkel's stance is backed by opinion polls showing that a vast majority of Germans oppose a bailout, and Germany's biggest selling daily Bild has lambasted Greece as a nation of lazy cheats who should be "thrown out of the euro on their ear".

Nope...Germany is not going to be "the great savior"....

Peace

reply to post by Subjective Truth


I just don't think they can really do anything but bail them out. Germans own a ton of property in Greece and if they kick Greece out of the EU, the Greeks will sieze the property. There is an entire town on Crete, Georgiopolus that is all German. There are a ton of Greeks living all over the EU, what are they going to do with them, repatriot them? There is no liquid market for the Drachma any longer, so I don't see how they can essentially erase the very currency the Greeks would need.

Its complicated and I'm sure there are answers to these questions, I'm just at a loss as to how they get out of this absent simply bailing them out. It would take a minimum of a couple of years to unwind Greece from the EU. I think the Greeks have them by the short hairs.

The whole bloody business from the beginning was to create a French/German led superstate and it was doomed from the start,IMO

When was the last time any country did what the people truly wanted? There are powers at play that we do not see. I think ww2 was a setup to.

Something is going on and it is not a good thing I fear. Until it happens it is nothing but conjecture. It is hard to see the truth behind all of the layers so everything ends up being a guess at this point. I do think that what I laid out is a possibility. But I will tell you one thing don't believe what they tell you always look at the other hand. Just because something seems a certain way does not make it so.

The greeks freely voted for whomever promised the most loot from the public treasury. The politicians kept their word. Why are they complaining? As far as loss of sovereignity goes, nobody forced the greek government to accept the Lisbon treaty. The freely elected representatives of the greek people freely voted to accept a treaty which surrendered greek sovereignity. Aint democracy wonderful? Thank you greeks, for inventing it for us.

reply to post by dolphinfan


That is exactly what I was saying to a degree. Just because something looks a certain way don't believe it. They are very smart and can manipulate even the strongest minds. I think they are setting up the EU to fail and then something will rise from the ashes to fill the void. I think they already have the plan and for all we know it may be right on track.

IMHO this is a no-brainer - if you spend more than your income is, this debt will have to be payed in the future.
Thats what Greek government did, so I blame the Greek government.

Originally posted by operation mindcrime
reply to post by Subjective Truth

 

Now it's Germany's fault...

Greek MPs lash out at Germany over debt crisis

Greek opposition lawmakers said on Thursday that Germans should pay reparations for their World War Two occupation of Greece before criticising the country over its yawning fiscal deficits.

Demanding a bailout because of the damage done in WWII...

Now that's stretching it...

Peace

That's not why Greece wants the money. How's that even relevant? Germany owes the money so they gotta pay. Not much to misunderstand here. And with that money they could manage it themselves.

[edit on 19-2-2010 by Hellas]

Greece should shock everyone and form a new Asia Minor Union with Turkey and just refuse to pay Europe anything. Screw the Rothschilds and all their bankster friends.

reply to post by Crito


The Greeks hate the Turks and the Turks hate the Greeks and they always will. To a Greek, the Turks are worse than the Nazis. I know, it is foolish, but that is how they think. If I could have nickle for each time some old Greek said to me "Even Hitler did not bomb the Partheon! The only people in the history of the world to attempt to destroy ancient Greece is the Turk", I could retire.

Try booking a flight from Athens to Istanbul. Pretty tough because they won't fly into each other's countrys(at least last year the did not). You need to fly from Athens to Rome or Naples and then fly to Turkey.

The Greeks won't change and Germany should not pay them a dime. OK. When the Greeks compensate the world for the reign of Alexander the Great, we can have a chat with the Germans.

What did the Germans destroy in any event? The Greeks have never had an industrial base. The Greeks make olive oil. The Germans can send them a bag of seeds and be done with it.

No. Just to blame the greek citizens would not solve anything.

Yes, the greeks voted the present and past govts into existance. One may consider the fault llies with the greeks themselves.

But unfortunately, the reality is that a bunch of ruffians had been voted in, whom had catered to short term benefits and offered populist measures, instead of NECESSARY measures for the well being of the nation.

Worse still, when the govt indulges in cover up and collusions with the corrupt corporations.

Leaders are supposed to be intelligent members of society, brave and courageous, and more critically, inspirational. But the depths experienced by the greeks today can only be accounted by the lack of leadership - its govt.

Greeks was the birth place of science, philosopher and arts. The greatness of Rome that ruled the world owed such knowledge to Greece. Without Greece, the present world would have been a much different place.

History may had been the past, but idealism never dies. It is a sad affair to look upon greeks today, a pale shadow of its past glory, that had done so much to shape our world. Efforts and blood had been spilt in its ancient past, and such efforts would had been an inspiration to lead a great and creative thinking people.

Corruption and cynicsm destroyed Hellenistic Greece, as it had done in the past. But it need not be this way to go. The restoration of Greece ancient glories and past lays now with the Greeks and its elected govt.

No one owes another a living, and each member of society has an honour debt to be repaid, if not for sake for oneself, but for the nect generations to come. No point in blaming each other. Its too far late.

No point in seeking the way out and expect the world pay its debt to Greece for its introduction to civilisation, itself just a bunch of nomads who wandered from elsewhere and settled on the island of Crete and started the minon dynasties.

What Greece need now is a courageous leader to make and convince fellow citizens, the necessary, not populist but informed auterity measures to uplift once again the great Greek civilisation.

Money lost can always be earned make. It is the People's will and the political convincing power to affect change now for the better, if not for the present lifetime, it would be for the next innocent generations.

Good luck to the greeks here and may they start discussing with their families, relatives and friend for the future of mankind.:-)





[edit on 19-2-2010 by SeekerofTruth101]