Regarding the pilot that crashed his plane in Austin...

reply to post by jam321

For this man, ALL other options were exhausted. We are judging!
I am not his public defender.
The point is that countless people can identify with a man who flies a plane into a building with the intention of killing IRS enforcement personnel.
There is a point there. He made it.
I am not here to judge the man.

Originally posted by Stewie
reply to post by Southern Guardian

 

What he did was perform a single act of desperation. I do not believe he was trying to help me avoid paying taxes.

You certainly dont think so. What about him? You say he did what he needed to do? Did he need to put the lives of unsuspecting workers in danger? Is violence the only way you know of?

You claim you exhausted your options, that his exhausted his. Maybe, just maybe the rest of american tax payers dont necessarily agree. So instead of dealing with the fact this may not be a consensus of the majority, you crash into a building risking lives, to get attention.

It is not what he needed to do.

Tell that to Simon Weisenthal, Nazi Hunter -- and to John Demanjuk who will die imprisoned for his complicity with the Nazi regime as a lowly flunky guard/conscript.

Aiding and Abetting is punishable to the exact extent as the underlying crime.

Originally posted by 2manyquestions


If you want revenge (and you're crazy enough to go through with it), or you want to make your point, take it straight to the person(s) who is/are directly connected to your problem. Those are the people you want to address. They will not hear you until they are truly affected either financially or physically. Those lowly workers in the office buildings get paid to enforce the laws, not make them.

Originally posted by Stewie
reply to post by jam321

 

For this man, ALL other options were exhausted.

What options? He doesnt like the tax system, didnt bother to try to rally the population with him or maybe he could not, so he decided to crash into a building knowing full well he take the lives of workers who dont necessarily agree with. What options?

Tell me, does the options of an entire nation belong to one man, or a small group of people?

I am not his public defender.

But you are defending him.

Oh my god,

I am reading everyone's posts and coincidentally playing "Nothing Else Matters", sipping on a 40 ounce malt liquor after a tedious day at school, afraid of every sound I hear as I am late on rent..

It's all sad and laughable at the same time.. everything is..

It's all meant to be polarizing.. See all the clash we're having here whether Joe Stack was write or wrong? It's -in its heart- a debate of whether our system and our lives are right or wrong..

It's all meant to be like this.. the system is meant to put us at a clash with ourselves instead of a clash with the system itself.. WE ARE NOT MEANT TO QUESTION THE SYSTEM NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS.. THE SYSTEM HAS PROGRAMMED US TO CLASH WITH OURSELVES AND EACH OTHER WHEN SOMETHING GOES WRONG..

You all just don't get it!

We should not question whether the guy was right or wrong, we should question WHETHER THE SYSTEM THAT PRODUCED A PERSON LIKE JOE STACK IS RIGHT OR WRONG..

But we just don't get it!

It is polarizing.. even though we all are expressing our opinions, all of you now and WHILE WRITING YOUR OWN WORDS ARE QUESTIONING YOUR OWN STANCE.. You FEEL MISTAKEN no matter what your stance about this whole incident is..

Because we are not meant to attack the system, WE ARE PART OF THE SYSTEM..

But we all just don't get it!

Quit this debate and QUESTION THE SYSTEM THAT HAS PRODUCED A PERSON WHO ATTACKS HIS OWN LAND, HIS OWN PEOPLE, AND HIS OWN EXISTENCE IN THIS WORLD..

I will keep on sipping on my $2.65 malt liquor, replay "Nothing Else Matters" every time it gets to the last few seconds, and scare myself everytime I hear a sound thinking it's the landlord coming to kick me out of the house.

Ladies and gentlemen, question the system!

Like Joe, I only have a few dollars in my pocket.. facing evacuation and not knowing if I'll make it to May 16th and graduate then find a job to pay my college debt, sipping on a 40 ounce malt liqour and playing "Nothing Else Matters"..

Yes, I am drunk.. the system made me do it!

EDIT: Drunken typo.. and yes, the system made me do it too!


[edit on 18-2-2010 by AlKashif]

Originally posted by brainwrek
reply to post by Shinsengumi

 

Never a justification for taking a life? 100% wrong.

Someone tries to kill you or your family, you propose what?

And what if people are minding their own business, but kill them to get attention to your political views? Is that a justification?

[edit on 18-2-2010 by Southern Guardian]

Do you think a whole lot of IRS agents didn't soil their pants on hearing this?

Do you think they might think twice, thrice? before strong-arming the next unlucky schmuck that comes into their sights?

I think yes and yes. If others start doing this, you'll see the mother of all attitude adjustments. 60 years of writing letters to the editors, wasted votes for the lesser of two evils, and complaining have brought us to this point.

My money, unfortunately based on history and personal observation, must agree with Mao: "Power comes from the barrel of a gun" and so far, only Our Royal Masters have used the gun. Against us.

Mehtinks the balance of power is undergoing a radical change.

As for me, I pray for the Second Coming because if this comes down to violence, most of us will not survive but, as Churchill said, maybe it's better to die fighting and free than live on one's knees as a slave.

Originally posted by ProUSA
This guy was nuts, he tried to kill innocent civilians because he got screwed by the system. Lots of people get screwed, not everyone turns into a 'looney' and takes out his/her aggression by attempting murder.

Thank goodness no one died (that I've heard of), I'm glad this psycho died for nothing.

Yes, he made some solid points in his suicide note, but his credibility went down the drain when he smashed his plane into the building.

He actually was counter-productive, because instead of sharing his story in a proper, legitimate way, he decided to do it the way he did. So, now when people hear his story, read his note, to the average Joe/Jane it will be nothing more than some lunatics suicide rant.

Cheers for short-sightedness...

[edit on 18-2-2010 by joeofthemountain]

southern guardian you are an even bigger traitor than the PTB. I hope you NEVER have to defend your freedom against tyranny because your family will be screwed. You will try to talk to the offenders. I don't care how many innocents are killed, you work for the IRS than you sir are the enemy. The line has been drawn in the sand, so who will you stand with. Because most of us stand for the constitution which has been walked all over by the Powers that be. And you think peaceful resolution is in order. What? Are you living in a fantasy world?

Originally posted by joeofthemountain
Do you think a whole lot of IRS agents didn't soil their pants on hearing this?

Do you think they might think twice, thrice? before strong-arming the next unlucky f#ck that come into their sights?

What IRS workers strong arm people? Which IRS workers come into your house and threaten you? It seems astounding that people are taking their anger out on an administration that takes their orders over policies in DC? Why not go complain in DC? Why take the lives of IRS workers?

My money, unfortunately, must agree with Mao:

Yep, the complainers of this current government system are now resulting to classic collective regime tactics. Hypocrisy.

I watched the news today and then just got done reading what this person had left behind. Based off of his actions I can only conclude the following:
I do not believe he was an unstable individual, or someone who was crazy, he had intelligence and can only believe that he did the best he could with what he had. Like so many of the citizens of the United States of America, he wanted to have the American Dream. But he discovered that it is not something easy or simple, the roads are not paved in gold. If we look at what he wrote, I would say he had some tax problems, yes, and probably owed taxes. Part of his business required him to travel, so he had to learn to fly and used his aircraft as a means to get to different cities for his clients, and with the new regulations, he was stuck with an assett that he could not afford to have nor could he afford to be without. I would say that he got a bad tax collector who, after auditing him, demanded that he pay what they believe he owed, or they would take what he had worked hard to own. I also believe that the person who was suppose to represent him, failed to do such, and ended up making things far worse than what they were, and the forms just got too confusing to be understood. He probably tried to get help from the federal government, and was more than likely turned down on more than one occassion. I would also say that there may be health issues there, and that he could not get the help that he needed. Yes you can get seen by a doctor, but good luck on the medicines.
I do not support what he did, nor do I approve, what he did was no better than any of the other people who did such before him. It was the act of a desperate man, who believe he had nothing left, nothing to fight for.

reply to post by SquirrelNutz


I'm afraid I tend to agree with you. If the economy continues to stay in the tank with continued high unemployment we will probably see more acts (though not quite as spectacular) of this type, not only aimed at the federal government but at major companies and their executives that were granted the largesse of a federal bailout. You don't need to be a fortune teller, anarchist, revolutionary, or subversive to expect that has a liklihood of occurring.

The government and media keep trying to tell us things are getting better (honest, folks, really, for sure, the stimulus is working, believe us), but for a large proportion of us they're most deifinitely not; and for some they're continuing to worsen.

This should be a wake-up call for those in the corridors of power, but they will cling steadfastly to a lone nut scenario for as long as they can.

Originally posted by scienforcer
southern guardian you are an even bigger traitor than the PTB.

By saying its wrong to take the lives of innocent people to prove a political point? Whos the traitor. Tell me, if you make an action knowing full well it would take the life of an unsuspecting innocent individual, would you still justify your actions different than the corruption in government? Two wrongs make a right?

You see Im not really concerned as much with the political and ideological bickering. Im just responding to the violent that know no limits, and the innocent that are pulled into the ideological bickering of two sides. Because ones point of politics matters more than an innocent life. That is how low you people have resulted towards. And this result is not because you have exhuasted your options, its that in this nation for the people and by the people, not all are readily behind you.

So, by forcing your politics onto everybody else, you use violence and threaten their lives. And here I thought the government was only capable of such things.

[edit on 18-2-2010 by Southern Guardian]

reply to post by scienforcer

Because most of us stand for the constitution which has been walked all over by the Powers that be. And you think peaceful resolution is in order. What? Are you living in a fantasy world?

What world you live in? Do you really want to see a relative vs relative drag out fight?

Do you really think all Americans will side with you?

Because most of us stand for the constitution which has been walked all over by the Powers that be.

What have you done to preserve that Constitution? IMO, most Americans can't even tell you about the Constitution other than the things they hear on the media.

Originally posted by Southern Guardian

Originally posted by Stewie
reply to post by jam321

 

For this man, ALL other options were exhausted.

What options? He doesnt like the tax system, didnt bother to try to rally the population with him or maybe he could not, so he decided to crash into a building knowing full well he take the lives of workers who dont necessarily agree with. What options?

Tell me, does the options of an entire nation belong to one man, or a small group of people?

I am not his public defender.

But you are defending him.

Well he obviously couldn't rally the population with him?

Look, you're totally right, it's absolutely wrong to kill innocent people over such things. (even though no one died might I add but the scenario is more likely than not).

But I believe this is bigger than just tax. This is, as many others have pointed out, his rage against the entire system, by assaulting (feebly), the section that gave him the most grief.

The way I view this event, is like when you're starting a car that hasn't been started in years. You hear the grinding and grinding but it doesn't start. These kind of events are grinders that eventually lead to the engine really revving up. We need change, big change, and if a few innocent people have to join the millions of innocents that die from the corrupt system, then it can't be helped.

Come on, nobody is going to turn around and yell "arrgghh where's the nearest plane?!"

But they sure as hell will think hey, if this guy will give his life over this, then I can atleast protest over this!!" Etc...

I concede my point to yours. Quite enlightened as it may be, but if you believe that change will come from nonviolence then you don't live in reality. The only times, throughout THIS country's history, that change was majorly affected was through violence. But I do give you credit for your liberal ideals, and for your peaceful resolution proposition. Although that hasn't worked in that past, especially over the last twenty years, I'm SURE it will work in the future, yeah right.

Originally posted by scienforcer
I concede my point to yours. Quite enlightened as it may be, but if you believe that change will come from nonviolence then you don't live in reality. The only times, throughout THIS country's history, that change was majorly affected was through violence. But I do give you credit for your liberal ideals, and for your peaceful resolution proposition. Although that hasn't worked in that past, especially over the last twenty years, I'm SURE it will work in the future, yeah right.

Exactly the point that I believe some are not seeing here.

Originally posted by Southern Guardian

What IRS workers strong arm people? Which IRS workers come into your house and threaten you?

IRS revenue agents. They are the ones who are charged with ruining peoples lives to obtain money for a criminally corrupt government.

reply to post by AlKashif


I read this entire thread, you've hit upon the best point. Why are we not questioning the system? Why do we all feel we have to quantify and qualify the actions of one Joe Stack? Joe Stack doesn't matter in the end, the system still looms before us. We know this system makes ever more Joe Stacks, Bin Ladens, McVeighs, among many other bogey men and criminals. Some of these criminals wear suits and work in the capital. We make those too, we make scum wholesale in this country. Does a system that creates people like the aformentioned souls deserve to exist? I'd say no.

[edit on 18-2-2010 by antonia]

Originally posted by Southern Guardian


And what if people are minding their own business, but kill them to get attention to your political views? Is that a justification?

If said people are agents of a tyrannical government, yes, it is justification.

If you think the IRS has your best interests at heart and is "just doing their job", check this out:

IRS acquiring shotguns

"The Internal Revenue Service (IRS) intends to purchase sixty Remington Model 870 Police RAMAC #24587 12 gauge pump-action shotguns for the Criminal Investigation Division. The Remington parkerized shotguns, with fourteen inch barrel, modified choke, Wilson Combat Ghost Ring rear sight and XS4 Contour Bead front sight, Knoxx Reduced Recoil Adjustable Stock, and Speedfeed ribbed black forend, are designated as the only shotguns authorized for IRS duty based on compatibility with IRS existing shotgun inventory, certified armorer and combat training and protocol, maintenance, and parts."

A 14' 12ga shotgun is an assassination weapon. It can fit under their suit jacket.