Reverse Psychology Into War

So Dick Cheney, former VPOTUS, goes on talk shows calling Obama administration 'soft on terrorism' because he doesn't brag about torturing as Cheney delights in doing. Current VPOTUS responds "Oh yeah, we're more hard core than you! We've escalated killing in Afghanistan way more than you. We've killed three times as many Pakistanis as you guys."

Dick Cheney continues to implicate himself publicly, on national television, of violating Federal law, International law, and Human Rights law. Instead of being arrested for crimes he admits to, he is treated as a political pundit. The current administration feels compelled to respond by demonstrating more 'toughness'. Let's see the results. During the 2003 invasion of Iraq, the 'acceptable innocent civilian death to intended target ratio was 30 to 1', meaning if only 30 innocents will be killed for one 'bad guy', that's okay, bombs away. Now, under the current administration it's more like 45 to 1.

Extraordinary rendition continues, assassination of individuals, including American citizens, without chargeable evidence of wrong doing is now official policy. In what way is this 'weaker' than what Cheney proposes? To me, this has every appearance of two bullies on a play ground trying to one-up each other in a game of dare. "I dare you to bloody that kid's nose." "Okay, I bloodied that kids nose. I dare you to crack that girl's skull."

What in the world are we doing playing that kind of game? So all it will take for a US attack on Iran is for Dick Cheney to say, "You're such a wimp, you won't even attack Iran!." To which Obama replies "Oh yeah, I'll attack right now, that will show you."

Recent correspondence with my sister about a holocaust chain-letter

Fri, February 12, 2010 7:32:40 PM

You do realize that this is blatant propaganda don't you?

Review the facts. Holocaust happened in Europe by Europeans. Is there any reason to force any one else to acknowledge it? The propaganda piece is perfectly designed to take the blame for the holocaust away from Europe and place it on the Muslims. Did the Muslims do it? Is the collapse of the world trade center part of the holocaust? The propaganda is linking them. The final message seems to be 'Hate Iran'.

Take the figure of 6 million Jews. That number is arrived at by comparing post war numbers with pre war estimates. 6 million less after the war. Of those 6 million, 3 million have been confirmed as holocaust victims. The other 3 million would represent some who abandoned Jewish identity and some who died as war refugees along with so many other war refugees. So 3 million Jews as holocaust victims. That number sounds very close to the numbers of Viet Namese who died during the US involvement in Viet Nam. How many people in the world are forced to acknowledge the US perpetrated holocaust of Viet Nam upon penalty of being labelled a horrible holocaust denier? No one at all.

I have many denials about the holocaust too.

1) I deny that the holocaust was done to Jewish Inhabitants of the so-called State of Israel.

2) I deny that the holocaust was done by Palestinians.

3) I deny that a holocaust perpetrated by Europeans in Europe entitles any one to take lands away from people who were not a party to the atrocity.

Do you realize that the simple factual denials I have made makes me every bit as much of an enemy to the sponsors of that propaganda piece as Iran is? If Iran is to bear the blame for the holocaust, then I will bear the blame too. Hate me if you must.

See how wonderful propaganda is?

---------------------------------------------------------------
Sat, February 13, 2010 10:42:52 AM

Dear P____,

I do love you! and I did see the Propaganda against Islam, but chose to focus on the fact that "good" people stood by and did nothing, the same way good people, including myself, are standing by and allowing people to be killed all over this planet for no other reason then they were born into a ethnic group hated by the group in power.... is it ever the case!

Someday,for what ever reason it happens, and it will happen, those that refuse to worship in the way and on the day prescribed, will have a death decree enacted upon them! And as the soon to be converted Jews to Christianity, in Jesus' day searched the Scriptures on that fateful Sabbath while Jesus was resting in the tomb, I hope there are those "good" people who will be searching the scriptures and find salvation before it is too late at the end.

All of this is planned by the enemy of God and people are only reacting as they always have throughout history ... not thinking or studying or reasoning ... I myself have allowed too many wasted years to go by, I have repented of this transgression, and others ... Praise the Lord, there are so many promises in the Word that give me peace in my heart for forgiveness and the redeeming of the time!

Thank you so much for your clear and analytical thinking and perception! Have you ever thought of putting together a factual, with pictures, email forwarding scheme showing that the great US has been responsible for not only the atrocities against the Native Americans, the Japanese citizens during WWII, but the Vietnamese ... and now the Afghans, and Iraqis

I have a co-worker from Afghanistan, from Moscow, from Iran, and from China ... they are all Americans now, but they all have family "back home". It is very interesting in the break room sometimes ... the discussions tend to focus on ethnic foods and not politics though, as you might suspect. But every once in a while .... like I asked my friend, and I do think of him as a friend, from Afghanistan, about the Islamic belief of the "end times" and he said it will be terrible, very bloody and with huge lose of life. He didn't say there would be a Savior or that it would result in going to heaven or that the earth would be made new again or that there would be peace among the "survivors"... nothing hopeful at all ...

Well, I'm running late again, or as usual,
With much love and wishing you peace!
your sister,

Sat, February 13, 2010 9:10:45 PM

I mention these things in forums. Plenty of other people have written books and articles. It is history after all. All it takes to see it, is to drop the notion that somehow "American = people who can never do wrong." The word Patriotism is a trap that many fall into. That's what caught the Germans in their time, that's what catches Americans now. Jesus said, "call no one on earth your father, you have one Father in heaven." Christians have no excuse calling their country Fatherland. Nationalist Christianity is an oxymoron at best, an abomination at worst. The merging of church and state.

The most terrible thing I see happening now is an unholy alliance between Fundamentalist American Christians(40%), extreme Jewish Zionism, and Wahabi Sunni Islam(Saudi Royals and Al Qaeda). These are powerful religious groups that sway their respective countries. Most Americans would be shocked to know that Al Qaeda is actually an ally of the US. Each of these groups are inherently racist. White American, Jewish Israeli, Arab Wahabi. Al Qaeda is a joint US-Saudi creation. The Saudis don't care how many Muslims the Americans kill in Afghanistan or Pakistan because they aren't Arabs. Their lifelong foe is the Shia. The US is supplying the weapons for Sunnis to kill Shia, in Yemen, Arabia, Pakistan, and the gulf states.

Who did 911? Wahabis. Who is US funding? Wahabis. Who are the enemy? Shia. Southern Iraq, Northwest Yemen, Iran, Lebanon. Who will Israel attack next using US weapons? Lebanon. Who is US itching to attack on trumped up reasons? Iran. It's still an unholy alliance because none of the three groups has any tolerance for the other. Nothing good will come of it.

I have great sympathy for the Shia. When the Sunni Shia split happened it was over succession. The Sunnis are bent upon worldly rule, much like Roman Catholics in their time, like Fundamentalists in our time. The Shia are content to live their private lives and look to the future for restoration, very much like Adventists. Shia Mosques have already been shut down in US, their properties seized. It's almost impossible to be Shia in America. Funny, aren't the 'terrorists' Sunnis? But they're our allies.

Originally posted by Sinter Klaas
reply to post by pthena

Excuse me ?? What do you call the Iraqi occupation by Western troops right now ?
They started the war with lies, because of lie while lying about it.
They practically kicked them back in the stone age.
They killed them.
They were them selves ultimately responsible because of their meddling in the past.
The Iraqi people are left with violence and they are robbed from their resources. All of it is now in Corporate hands.

Why ? Well.. Iraq was a self sufficient economy and their stroman Saddam Hussein refused to open the market and even wanted to drop the dollar as reserve. .

They simply made sure their empire of free market and their influence was reinstalled and keep it like that.

We also (as a people) know about the war being illegal. And we do nothing.

As much as I like to discus this subject. It's completely of topic and I have to ask you to move this subject to another thread or create a new one of course. Please let me know I'll follow.

I condemn the situation as it is right now. And there is sure something not right.

What it seemed I called the Israeli occupation of Palestine, that's the same for US invasion of Iraq. The US and "Israel" seem to be birds of a feather.



[edit on 13-3-2010 by pthena]

reply to post by Sinter Klaas

raynemarina
if those people "are chosen" they must be chosen for something, like say form the illegal state of israel and justify it, cause you know, it's in their holly book, the word of god, BS!

If there were no book, and a bunch of people from Europe and US got together and invaded another land, killing many people, driving millions into exile, declared themselves a country. This would not be tolerated for a moment. And yet, it's been going on for sixty some years. The expansion just keeps grinding away. With incentives and cash bribes offered for select people to immigrate and settle, gobbling up land and water.

The only thing that stands in the way of swift justice being done is this book. That seems like grand delusion to me.

This so called state of Israel has no constitution. All it has is recognition by the US. That's all it has. Only because many Americans think that armed occupation=God does this continue. It's all delusion.

I would like to see some one prove that God told these people to do this. Or prove that 1948 has any significance to prophecy except that President Truman said something then. I don't think Truman was God. As far as I am concerned anybody holding the belief that the so-called state of Israel has any legitimacy is worshiping Truman as God. I don't think YHWH of the Book would approve.

Just for comparison purposes.

A person in America says, "I accept the Christian message, somebody died for me. I get to go to heaven." Then, they feel assured of God's love, and try to treat people as they would like to be treated, as per the Christian Book.

Some one else in America says, "I accept the Law of Moses, as did my mother before me I therefore have the g.d given right to take land and property from some one who's mother wasn't called a Jew." That person gets dual citizenship, dual passport, plane ticket to "Israel", and by force of arms takes a piece of land from some one else who was born there, as was his mother, and her mother, and her mother for 10 generations. And anybody who dares to call that wrong is guilty of the 'holocaust'. What a racket!

In the US, no one is allowed to be a politician unless they swear to "Israel's inalienable right to exist as a Jewish nation, and the absolute right to self-defense." Who exactly is TPTB in the US?

moved here from

reply to post by pthena


Ah... Yes indeed. I seem to have misunderstood your reply. :shk:

I read it again and I still see some points I'd like to comment.

If there were no book, and a bunch of people from Europe and US got together and invaded another land, killing many people, driving millions into exile, declared themselves a country. This would not be tolerated for a moment. And yet, it's been going on for sixty some years. The expansion just keeps grinding away. With incentives and cash bribes offered for select people to immigrate and settle, gobbling up land and water.

I have learned there was already a mention of a Jewish state before WW2 started. The British rulers also promised the Palestine their own land. Before that the Palestine people were a minority in several countries. Like Syria. This I believe to have learned back in school.
And a lot info I find just by reading alot.
School was already more then a decade ago for me. So I could easily be wrong.

The reason for their continuous expanding I think is because the promised land was much bigger then current day Israel. Parts of Lebanon Syria and Iraq were also part of it.

The Israeli's don't really have choice. If they want to stay they must get rid of the Palestine people.

Water shouldn't be a problem. There is more then enough sea water. All they need is giant plastic bag and some sun.
@ big tanks to store and to retrieve the water.

Interesting OP by the way I've got a few thoughts about it. I'll give them at a later point in time.

reply to post by Sinter Klaas

I have learned there was already a mention of a Jewish state before WW2 started. The British rulers also promised the Palestine their own land. Before that the Palestine people were a minority in several countries. Like Syria. This I believe to have learned back in school.

I must admit that I was taught zero history of Palestine, only trained (sometimes referred to as brainwashing) to react as if Israel is faultless and Arabs have always been enemies. That was US high school in the 1970s. The first history I actually heard wasn't until 2002 on a National Public Radio series, The Mideast: A Century of Conflict A Seven-Part Series Traces the Israeli-Palestinian Dispute
www.npr.org...
Until then I'd never heard of Theodor Herzl, First Zionist Congress, Der Judenstaat, The Balfour Declaration, the 1922 British Mandate, The November 1947 U.N. proposed partitioning; pretty sad that Americans are supposed to take sides in something they know nothing about. So yes, I too have major gaps in education. I'm not particularly pleased about that.

Just the other night, on a radio call-in show, some guy said that the whole land of Palestine was completely empty, as in no Palestinians there, when the Jews moved in. There is no such thing as a Palestinian, a bunch of Arabs dashed in just before 1948 and called themselves Palestinians out of sheer spite to the Jews. Of course the guy didn't cite any source for this notion. I'll have to look into where this comes from.

That theory seems pure BS. Am I to think all those old cities like Jerusalem and Haifa were just sitting there empty? Am I to believe that out of spite someone who's really a Syrian citizen would stay in a nasty refugee camp in Lebanon or Jordan with no citizenship anywhere for 60 years and raise children and grandchildren under those conditions?

The reason for their continuous expanding I think is because the promised land was much bigger then current day Israel. Parts of Lebanon Syria and Iraq were also part of it.

Yes, the Zionists call it 'Greater Israel' and the goal of radical Zionists is to have Jews and only Jews and Aaronic priests, of course living in this 'Greater Israel'.

The Israeli's don't really have choice. If they want to stay they must get rid of the Palestine people.

They have all the choices. The vast majority have dual citizenship. They can go back where they came from, all the ones with dual citizenship.

Water shouldn't be a problem. There is more then enough sea water. All they need is giant plastic bag and some sun.

Solar stills are fine for drinking water. That wouldn't fill the needs for irrigation, manufacturing, or sewer treatment.

I like your new signature

[edit on 14-3-2010 by pthena]

Originally posted by RizeorDie
reply to post by pthena

 

this is interesting also now that we're on this subject...

Israel's National Water Carrier, built in 1964, transports water from the lake to the population centers of Israel, and is the source of much of the country's drinking water. Israel also supplies water from the lake to Jordan (under the terms of the Israel-Jordan Treaty of Peace). Increasing water demand and some dry winters have resulted in stress on the lake and a decreasing water line, at times to dangerously low levels.

Sea of galilee

also an islamic prphecy say the dajjal(antichrist will appear when the lake dries up.
signs

From the links I got the impression that the Sea of Gallilee along with the Jordan River could both get swallowed up in an earthquake, since they're both on a major fault line.

Islamic prophecy seems to cover time differently from Christian. For awhile, I got the impression maybe the barrier would break under the lake, releasing Gog and Magog, the same time the lake disappears from earthquake. (swallowed up?)

[edit on 14-3-2010 by pthena]

great thread op...i too am a shia and you were right on the money on this one...the wahabbis have a covert agenda with the zionists to attack iran and get rid of the shias...its sad b/c our shia leaders always preach peace

reply to post by shayanmh

great thread op...i too am a shia and you were right on the money on this one...the wahabbis have a covert agenda with the zionists to attack iran and get rid of the shias...its sad b/c our shia leaders always preach peace

I'm a bit surprised that more people haven't reached the same conclusion. The Saudis seem very intolerant. I doubt Shia are welcome at all in the Kingdom. That would explain why some of the Gulf States and UAE are majority Shia, pushed out as it were.

Just a bit of background. Back in '75 and '76 when I was in college studying to be a professional Christian, though my heart wasn't in the professional part, I had a roommate for a time from Iran. This was back in the Shah's day when US viewed Iran as an ally. Later, after dropping out from college, I joined the Air Force. In boot camp I even saluted Iranian Officers who were training to be fighter pilots.

Sure, the revolution was a bit of a slap in the face to the US, but dang, not enough to treat the country as a pariah for 30 years. The people are the same after all, no matter who is in control. Of course it seemed natural to me to side with Iran during Iraq-Iran war. After all, with my very own hands in '78 I prepared F-4 fighter jets for foreign sale. Would it make any sense to cheer for a MiG against an F-4 in a dog-fight?

I'm not implying that Iran is the home or birthplace of Shia Islam, every one who knows knows that would be Karbala in southern Iraq. Americans tend to be grossly undereducated. When they think Shia, they think Iran.

The people of Iran are still the same people; the same I had as roommate, the same I saluted, the same who for democracy deposed an American imposed dictator, the same who now protest increasing militarization of Iran. The US would do well to not confuse current protest with some sort of endorsement of US policies toward Iran. Tens of millions of dollars per year are being spent by US to destabilize Iran. It's that 10s of millions causing the militarization, not the Iranians.

If Americans really deplore the militarization of Iran, they should deplore first what their government does in their names to cause it.

I hope you don't mind me using your post as an opportunity to write what's on my mind and heart.

Originally posted by shayanmh
great thread op...i too am a shia and you were right on the money on this one...the wahabbis have a covert agenda with the zionists to attack iran and get rid of the shias...its sad b/c our shia leaders always preach peace

Hi Sinter Klaas. Nice to read you.

I read you are shia. You said your leaders always preach peace.
I have a question.
I'm confronted with what I'm told from Muslim friends, the media and my own experience. They contradict.
Peace is what people usually claim to strife for. The media shows death and horrific murders. Warnings from Islam opposers with quran text preaching this horrific ways as ideology an spiritual necessity to get rid of the infidel. I see in my own neighborhood Muslim, christian and non believers living together in peace. I know every Muslim attack is highlighted in the media creating fear and so on. Fear is there tool to get what they want (TPTB).
I also learned there is no spiritual difference between shia and sunni Muslims. Only leadership by the best for the job or by a descendant of the prophet Mohamed. seems to be the question.

Can you tell me what you believe is true ?

reply to post by pthena


Yes there seem to be alot of lies around this topic I'll see what I can find I've seen some of your issues discussed.

reply to post by Sinter Klaas

Yes there seem to be alot of lies around this topic

The topic under discussion was the claim no Palestinians lived in Palestine. I have a theory based upon observation of how certain preachers preach. So my theory will be exposed through parody.

***WARNING*** the following is parody, in no way reflecting my beliefs
The music dies down, the preacher stands up. "Thank you brother S----. Be seated. The devil tried to trick me again this morning. Can I get an amen?" (dramatic pause for audience response). Narrator's note: Although born and raised in Nevada, pastor J-- speaks in an exaggerated Southern accent. Some say, it makes him sound more credible.

"Do you know what the devil is lying about today? I'll tell you. The left-wing media is really working over-time for the devil, Oh yes they are! Can I get an amen?" dramatic pause. "They saaaay that Palestinians have lived on Israel's G.. given land. They saaay that Palestinians have a human right to live there, because they lived there many generations. Who are we going to believe? Are we going to believe G.. or the devil?" dramatic pause, "I didn't hear you, are you going to believe G.. or Satan?" Audience yells out, "G.."

"Then let's hear what G.. has to say. Turn with me if you will to Jeremiah 33:10 'This is what the LORD says: `You say about this place, "It is a desolate waste, without men or animals." Yet in the towns of Judah and the streets of Jerusalem that are deserted, inhabited by neither men nor animals, there will be heard once more 11 the sounds of joy and gladness, the voices of bride and bridegroom, and the voices of those who bring thank offerings to the house of the LORD,'
What does G.. say? Does He say 'the towns of Judah inhabited by Palestinians? I don't heeeear you." DP(dramatic pause) "That's right, inhabited by neither men nor animals."

"Who contradicts G.. and calls Him a liar?"DP "That's right Satan! Can I get an amen?"DP "So when your friends try to show you proof that Palestinians lived in Judah's towns, what are you going to say?" DP "I'll tell you what to say, 'Get behind me Satan!' Let me hear you say it."DP "I didn't hear you, What are you going to say?" DP "That's right!"

. . . ***END PARODY
It's my firm theory, that the above example displays where the aforementioned theory comes from.

reply to post by pthena


Yes maybe...However...

Lets change perspective.

There is speculation about how many Jews would return to the promised land and that the numbers of returned still isn't getting close.

The offspring from the descendants from 12 tribes will be countless. The current Israelites are said to be only 1 tribes descendants.

The problem is that current situations contradict each other. Take for example Lebanon.
This country was during the seventies still a christian nation. They lived their lives tolerant and let in the people seeking wealth and prosperity.
Look where it got them. The Muslim only came after they were a successful nation.

Of course the big cities in Israel were habited. All the rest of the land was a dessert. Why live there ?

reply to post by Sinter Klaas

There is speculation about how many Jews would return to the promised land and that the numbers of returned still isn't getting close.

As far as I know, it was supposed to be enough to inhabit the land. There is some confusion about 'returns' since there has already been that return after the 70 years exile Jeremiah mentioned. That was a bit less than wonderful. Nehemiah 11 tells how Jerusalem was short on inhabitants, so lots had to be cast to draft people from the villages to move into Jerusalem. Which isn't surprising after the purges that took place under Ezra and Nehemiah.

The offspring from the descendants from 12 tribes will be countless. The current Israelites are said to be only 1 tribes descendants.

There is a theory that 90% of people calling themselves Jews are actually IndoAryan decent who converted circa 700 A.C.E. known as Kazars. If this is so, then I just may have one-eigth decent from these people. I've only heard this recently so I don't know what to think of it yet.

But yes, the prophecies speak of all the tribes, not just Judah.

Take for example Lebanon.
This country was during the seventies still a christian nation. They lived their lives tolerant and let in the people seeking wealth and prosperity.
Look where it got them. The Muslim only came after they were a successful nation.

France acquired Lebanon and Syria the same time Britain got Palestine, result of Ottoman empire siding with Germany during WWI. French imposed a constitution upon Lebanon stating it would always be Christian majority. Christians, Jews, and Muslims lived there. Once the population became majority Muslim, they simply quit taking the census. You seem to imply Muslims are opportunists.

Of course the big cities in Israel were habited. All the rest of the land was a dessert. Why live there ?

Unless I'm wrong, olive trees are the traditional livelihood. They would be outside the cities.

I live in the US because I was born here. Being born somewhere seems a reasonable excuse to live somewhere, unless there's an overwhelming reason to leave.

reply to post by Sinter Klaas

Why live there ?

From another perspective. Why would some one move there from another country? I will feel free to speculate on psychological reasons since I included psycology in the thread title.

The cultic/tribal god is seen to have made certain promises to the tribe. Basically, if you follow my laws then I will keep you secure in this land. If you fail, you will be driven out and suffer. If you are driven out and learn your lesson and return to me then I will return to you and bring you back and keep you secure again. (this is the basic motif of the book of Deuteronomy and the prophets, blessing and cursing) So living in the land is the proof that all is right between the god and the tribe.

Imagine a parent says to the child, "If you are good today, then I will lift you up so that you can reach out your hand and take that all-day sucker that's stored up for you on the top shelf."

The child reasons, 'If the all-day sucker is a sign and seal of my goodness then I will climb up and reach out and take it. Thereby having in my hand the proof positive that I am good.'

To an adult mind this reasoning seems extremely flawed, at least I would hope that the flaw seems obvious. A sibling may say, 'are you crazy? don't do it, you'll get in trouble.'

Now, to go from the obvious, to something more bizarre. If we were to accept the Khazarians/Jewish theory as fact. It would sound something like this:

The child with the promise of reward for goodness tells the neighbor child, who actually belongs to an altogether different family, about this bargain. While the child of promise is outside playing, the neighbor sneaks in and reasons to himself, 'If I belonged to this family, I too would have this promise. I will declare myself therefore a member of this family. I will climb the heights. I will reach out and take the all-day sucker. I will thereby have the proof positive that I am a member of this family, and that I am good as can be.'

It just keeps getting wilder all the time. In either case, how would the parent react upon coming home and seeing either one of these children with all-day sucker in hand, and licking it? What if, they displayed signs of fighting, maybe one unconscious and bleeding on the floor?

I just found this thread, Debunking the 'Fake Jew' AKA The 'Khazarian Jew' Myth www.abovetopsecret.com...
I should read this through before entertaining theories relying on this theory.



[edit on 15-3-2010 by pthena]