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The Nature of Infinity, God and Aliens?

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posted on Feb, 16 2010 @ 05:03 PM
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This post deals with Infinity and some of the thoughts I have had while pondering it.

First if the Universe is infinite then everything no matter how implausible, strange or otherwise would be almost certain to exist somewhere out there.

Ok I know that this is a difficult topic that is why I posted it here. If it belongs somewhere else then feel free to move it.

Most of you would have heard of the monkey and the typewriter. If a monkey could hit random buttons on a typewriter for infinity then it would will at some stage type the complete works of Shakespeare word for word. Not only that, given enough time it will eventually write all of the books written word for word.

There would also exist another Earth with another you, that still had all of your memories and experiences.

Im sure you can see what I am getting at.

This must surely mean that God does exist and so do Aliens and every mythical creature including the Easter Bunny!

Somewhere out there Santa Claus does deliver presents to all the children in one night and eats the cookies left for him.

Aliens and Interdeminsional beings do visit us. And this might be the Earth that really is secretly ruled by reptilian overlords.

Now the alternative needs to be visited. If the Universe is finite then none of the above applies. Everything is contained in a finite boundary. This makes more sense in a way but is very boring.

I had some of these thoughts after watching " To Infinity and Beyond" from the Horizon series.

Any thoughts on the matter? Please feel free to post.



posted on Feb, 16 2010 @ 10:01 PM
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What if each individual keystroke is independent of one another, which i assume is true. Why MUST the monkey eventually rewrite every book ever written? Couldnt keys be randomly struck an infinite amount of times and there never be more than a few words strung together? This seems more likely to me.

I think there are infinite possibilities out there, but they are just that, possibilities. I think it is possible for the monkey to accidentally rewrite every book ever written, but all it would take is a single wrong keystroke to throw everything off. Even with an infinite amount of tries, i just cannot comprehend this ever happening. Sure, the probability exists that it would happen, but it is very low.

Maybe its just me not understanding infinity right. I feel like i do, but i just cant logically equate infinite possibilities to infinite realities, i feel like only a few books would be rewritten (earth and humans are one of those books that happened to be rewritten).


This reply is fairly short, yet i have completely deleted and reworded it here probably 15 times, and it still doesnt express exactly what i want to. putting this stuff into words is very difficult.

Am i wrong?



posted on Feb, 16 2010 @ 10:46 PM
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@ Bharata

I think you confuse "infinity" with "potential". Just because the universe is infinite in expansion, does not mean that all things are possible. Take this for example:

In an infinite universe is it possible for a circle to have corners? By the same token, can a square be round?

In an infinite universe can I both exist, and not exist? Would my existence negate my non-existence, or if I did not exist, how could I also exist?

Now, certain things do have the potential to exist. It is possible, in an infinite universe for there to be a God, or for there to not be a God. In that same universe it is wholly possible for a circle, or a square to exist.

But you cannot have the potential for everything to exist just because infinity might exist.

I apologize if you see this as a harsh criticism, I commend you for your thoughts and encourage you to keep pursuing them. I just found too many paradoxes in this statement.

~ Wandering Scribe



posted on Feb, 16 2010 @ 11:50 PM
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Originally posted by Gamecock
What if each individual keystroke is independent of one another, which i assume is true. Why MUST the monkey eventually rewrite every book ever written? Couldnt keys be randomly struck an infinite amount of times and there never be more than a few words strung together? This seems more likely to me.

I think there are infinite possibilities out there, but they are just that, possibilities. I think it is possible for the monkey to accidentally rewrite every book ever written, but all it would take is a single wrong keystroke to throw everything off. Even with an infinite amount of tries, i just cannot comprehend this ever happening. Sure, the probability exists that it would happen, but it is very low.

Maybe its just me not understanding infinity right. I feel like i do, but i just cant logically equate infinite possibilities to infinite realities, i feel like only a few books would be rewritten (earth and humans are one of those books that happened to be rewritten).


This reply is fairly short, yet i have completely deleted and reworded it here probably 15 times, and it still doesnt express exactly what i want to. putting this stuff into words is very difficult.

Am i wrong?


because infinity is forever so given infinity everything and anything is possible


the chance for any one thing such as a monkey typing a novel is EXTREMELY LOW however given enough time it will indeed happen be it 10 years or 60 trillion it will happen sooner or later

because infinity is forever.

[edit on 16-2-2010 by Gakus]



posted on Feb, 17 2010 @ 12:03 AM
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@ Gakus

Infinite time does not mean infinite possibilities. The monkey and the typewriter analogy is also quite faulty since those monkeys could very well randomly type the letters A, F, E, C, H, D, T, U in random intervals without any common pattern for the rest of infinite existence. If this were to happen, even though the possibility exists for them to type Shakespeare's work, it does not mean they will do so.

Take my analogy of the round-square, and the circle with corners. These two objects will never, ever, beyond the shadow of all doubt, come into existence regardless of the length of time an infinity occupies.

Infinity just does not work that way.

~ Wandering Scribe



posted on Feb, 17 2010 @ 10:51 AM
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The entire OP is based upon the assumption that the universe in infinite, both in size and time. I think strong evidence has shown that the universe is expanding at an ever increasing rate. This should not be confused with the matter within the universe increasing. As bodies in the universe move apart, there is simply more empty "space" between them; not more atoms, particles, or matter.

Because physicists can calculate the current rate of acceleration, they can work backwards and come to an estimate of when all matter was at one point (big bang theory). So at least in my opinion, the current (post bang) universe has a beginning (not infinite) and also has a measurable and constant amount of matter (not infinite).

We should not confuse trillions upon trillions of galaxies in the known universe with infinity...as they are infinitely different in size.



posted on Feb, 17 2010 @ 03:54 PM
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Originally posted by Wandering Scribe
@ Gakus

Infinite time does not mean infinite possibilities. The monkey and the typewriter analogy is also quite faulty since those monkeys could very well randomly type the letters A, F, E, C, H, D, T, U in random intervals without any common pattern for the rest of infinite existence. If this were to happen, even though the possibility exists for them to type Shakespeare's work, it does not mean they will do so.

Take my analogy of the round-square, and the circle with corners. These two objects will never, ever, beyond the shadow of all doubt, come into existence regardless of the length of time an infinity occupies.

Infinity just does not work that way.

~ Wandering Scribe



infinite time does infact translate into infinite tries for the monkey to get it right we're pretending this monkey is able to live forever and if he could it would infact happen

if that doesnt work for ya we'll say each time one dies another takes it place

it still has an infinite number of chances to get it right


as is stated by many of the LEADING scientists in the field if the universe is indeed infinite then there IS another earth with another human who looks exactly like you doing exactly what you are doing at this very moment with a family who looks and acts exactly as yours does

not only that but there would be an infinite number of these so called "doubles"

given enough time it isn't a chance of it happening its only a matter of when


again the chance for such a thing is so low its claimed to be impossible but if you can grasp the concept of infinity you understand given enough time/distance(number of planets you encounter) it is indeed not only possible but a fact

if you doubt what i am suggesting do a little research every leading scientist infact suggests the same exact thing

infinity is forever thus making all outcomes possible.


the square not being able to be a circle etc is true however that doesn't apply in the least bit to this topic

a monkey typing a novel isn't impossible just highly unlikely as is another planet with another person who looks like you

its extremely unlikely but given an infinite amount of planets space and time its a fact

[edit on 17-2-2010 by Gakus]



posted on Feb, 17 2010 @ 04:22 PM
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reply to post by Gakus
 


"infinity is forever thus making all outcomes possible."

A circle with corners fits into this modus operandi. Unfortunately, even if all of the universe expanded infinitely, and there were, as you state, an infinite number of planets then as well, my circle with corners is just as hypothetically possible as the monkey/ies typing up all the works of literature. Yet we know that my circle with corners will not happen.

Ah, the old "leading scientist" statement. Please, feel free to link any of these scientists work where they state what you are saying. The burden of proof that these scientists exist is on your shoulders since you made the claim that they do.

I don't disagree that the universe is capable of many a wondrous thing. However, everything is not possible, and as Dcatal01 mentioned, it is also not "infinite" because it is still expanding. An infinite thing cannot actually continue to expand. Such expansion negates it's infinite-ness.



posted on Feb, 17 2010 @ 07:08 PM
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reply to post by Wandering Scribe
 


I think your circle can stay round in an infinite universe but what about a hop skip and jump to another Universe? and another? ad infinitum.

If even the laws of physics can change when we consider multiple universes, Maybe there is a universe where a monkey has typed the complete works of Shakespeare.

And some may argue that it has already happened in this universe.


Also what we have to remember is that this is mainly a mathematical exercise and I am trying to bring the metaphysical into it. Contradictions and paradoxes ahead!

Every day we discover new things about this universe, what is its true nature we still have to find out.

as for the monkey here is Direct proof

Ok it is wikipedia but you see where I am coming from?



posted on Feb, 20 2010 @ 03:02 AM
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Originally posted by Wandering Scribe
reply to post by Gakus
 


"infinity is forever thus making all outcomes possible."

A circle with corners fits into this modus operandi. Unfortunately, even if all of the universe expanded infinitely, and there were, as you state, an infinite number of planets then as well, my circle with corners is just as hypothetically possible as the monkey/ies typing up all the works of literature. Yet we know that my circle with corners will not happen.

Ah, the old "leading scientist" statement. Please, feel free to link any of these scientists work where they state what you are saying. The burden of proof that these scientists exist is on your shoulders since you made the claim that they do.

I don't disagree that the universe is capable of many a wondrous thing. However, everything is not possible, and as Dcatal01 mentioned, it is also not "infinite" because it is still expanding. An infinite thing cannot actually continue to expand. Such expansion negates it's infinite-ness.






the leading theory of our universe is that it is indeed infinite i'm not saying it is without a doubt but thats the general idea from many of the leading scientists in the field

map.gsfc.nasa.gov...

theres your link stating it is indeed believed to be flat thus infinite

again you resort to using these shapes as a means of explaining away nothing

it doesn't apply please try to grasp that concept


a monkey typing a novel ISN'T impossible just highly unlikely given enough time IT WILL HAPPEN and thats what infinity is

FOREVER making all outcomes possible

read again making all outcomes possible

so there will be an infinite number of "books" containing nothing more than "XFDJKGKLJDFJKGFDJKL" while others being wonderful works


if you can't grasp this concept you have NO IDEA what infinity is

please stop attempting to argue

maybe try doing a tiny bit of research before speaking on subjects like these and spewing such ignorant information.

[edit on 20-2-2010 by Gakus]



posted on Feb, 20 2010 @ 12:16 PM
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I can see both points of view and I understand the mathematics behind the infinite monkey theorem. I agree with Wandering Scribe partly in that given an infinite length of time with each key stroke independant of the last, it's possible for the monkeys to type entire pages of the letter S for infinity. On the flip-side it's also possible for them to do as the theorem states, assuming infinite monkeys, infinite typewriters and paper and food and lifespan and a rather large space for all that infinite poop


However it is a nice metaphor to try and explain or make sense of a rather large series of letters and numbers in an imaginary way


As for the circle gaining corners or the square becoming rounded, surely they would no longer be a circle or a square in that case? Perhaps a better way of saying it is that anything is possible or probable within the laws and boundaries of the universe that is being observed. Or something like that


Phoenix



posted on Feb, 20 2010 @ 05:28 PM
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Originally posted by phoenix_zephyr
I can see both points of view and I understand the mathematics behind the infinite monkey theorem. I agree with Wandering Scribe partly in that given an infinite length of time with each key stroke independant of the last, it's possible for the monkeys to type entire pages of the letter S for infinity. On the flip-side it's also possible for them to do as the theorem states, assuming infinite monkeys, infinite typewriters and paper and food and lifespan and a rather large space for all that infinite poop


However it is a nice metaphor to try and explain or make sense of a rather large series of letters and numbers in an imaginary way


As for the circle gaining corners or the square becoming rounded, surely they would no longer be a circle or a square in that case? Perhaps a better way of saying it is that anything is possible or probable within the laws and boundaries of the universe that is being observed. Or something like that


Phoenix




I think you are on the right track there.

As I said earlier I think a finite universe would be rather boring. Thinking of an infinite universe where everything is possible opens up my imagination, nothing I imagine seems impossible which makes a change.


[edit on 20-2-2010 by bharata]







 
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