Is communism GOOD?

If I was able to create an ideal world, I would not have a communist system, because it tends not to provide incentive in the long run. However, I would (and remember we are speaking hypothetically here) like to see a world in which humans placed much less importance on material goods. In other words, I'd like to see a form of capitalism tempered by a human consciousness where people were able to feel secure, happy, and fulfilled as humans with relatively little physical wealth. Enough to survive, to be sure, but there is no need for people to have three-car garages and houses filled with rooms they never use bought on massive credit. Nor, I believe, is there any need for anyone to have more than a few million dollars at most. What this would entail is a world where a stoic, spartan attitude would be seen as its own reward. People would spend less time working, save more and get into less debt, and cultivate their minds/bodies/spirits rather than obsessing over marble countertops or the latest plasma-screen TV. A world where people read the great books, engaged in conversation, helped their neighbors, took their time and took pride in craftsmanship, and lived with minimal material posessions. A world of long-term thinking and enhanced community spirit.

Sadly, I'm really not sure most humans are capable of such a noble and austere existence.

Communism is GOOD. For ants. Bees. Collective social insects. It is definitely useless for people.
Some person will have to have the power, and power corrupts. Since there is no private property, state will control all the property and thus huge beurocracy will be needed. There is no system of counterbalance to different branches of government so abuse of power is inevitable.
Corruption + beurocracy + abuse of power = bad.
Of course other systems have flaws too ,even those mentioned above. But they do not force you to be totally dependent on state because you own nothing.
Ants manage it great though. Monarchic communism.

reply to post by silent thunder


Oh for goodness sake people. Communal living and cooperation is what we do!!!!! Its the natural way for us to be, its only our negative programming and Global Elite manipulation of our lives that prevents it and has us on this hamster wheel of struggling to pay ‘their’ never satisfied Bankster taxes. Simple.

Originally posted by Fatality
You eat what and how much you are allowed to eat.

ever heard of the FDA?

You listen and watch what you are allowed .

ever heard of the FCC?

Freedom of speech is basically inexistent.

ever heard of libel?

You don't own anything.

have you got a credit rating?

No real elections.

weather there is one party or there are two parties or 26 parties, so long as the choice is between 2 people with exactly the same policies who will enact the will of their corporate backers, there will never be real elections, at least communists are honest about it.

People on top will always have everything even more than they have nowadays

that's just not possible, they have everything they want, if they want more, they have the means to get it. tell me what "they" can't take?

"they" convinced the people that the abuses of power that the soviets used was unique to communism, they've drilled into us that capitalism was immune to oppression. since the collapse of the USSR western governments have incrementally instituted soviet style power and control mechanisms while telling us we are free.

look around you, the west is building toward romania in 1989. point out the differances!!

it's about power, blaming communism was a slight of hand.

Originally posted by mlmijyd
reply to post by silent thunder

 

Oh for goodness sake people. Communal living and cooperation is what we do!!!!! Its the natural way for us to be, its only our negative programming and Global Elite manipulation of our lives that prevents it and has us on this hamster wheel of struggling to pay ‘their’ never satisfied Bankster taxes. Simple.

A judcious study of history reveals all kinds of brutality and savagry on every continent, among all peoples, long before there were "banksters." It is true that there have been successful examples of communial living and cooperation throughout history, but they are generally exceptions to the rule and generally didn't last very long before devolving into petty infighting.

Humans are carnivorous apes and we didn't make it to the top of the food chain by being all warm n' fuzzy n' stuff. Just ask a Roman slave or an Egyptian hauling blocks to build the pyramids.

Originally posted by ZeroKnowledge
Communism is GOOD. For ants. Bees. Collective social insects. It is definitely useless for people.
Some person will have to have the power, and power corrupts. Since there is no private property, state will control all the property and thus huge beurocracy will be needed. There is no system of counterbalance to different branches of government so abuse of power is inevitable.
Corruption + beurocracy + abuse of power = bad.
Of course other systems have flaws too ,even those mentioned above. But they do not force you to be totally dependent on state because you own nothing.
Ants manage it great though. Monarchic communism.

Its really quite funny when people of intellect come on here and say the sort of insightful things they do and not see the irony in their statements when applied to their current existence?

true communism is good.
true capitalism is good.
its when you mix the two, that corruption occurs.
there are no true communist or capitalist countries, and never has been.

Originally posted by silent thunder

Originally posted by mlmijyd
reply to post by silent thunder

 

Oh for goodness sake people. Communal living and cooperation is what we do!!!!! Its the natural way for us to be, its only our negative programming and Global Elite manipulation of our lives that prevents it and has us on this hamster wheel of struggling to pay ‘their’ never satisfied Bankster taxes. Simple.

A judcious study of history reveals all kinds of brutality and savagry on every continent, among all peoples, long before there were "banksters." It is true that there have been successful examples of communial living and cooperation throughout history, but they are generally exceptions to the rule and generally didn't last very long before devolving into petty infighting.

Humans are carnivorous apes and we didn't make it to the top of the food chain by being all warm n' fuzzy n' stuff. Just ask a Roman slave or an Egyptian hauling blocks to build the pyramids.

I'd like to be excluded from your collective inclusion if you actually believe that we need to eat meat to survive and if you think we are at the top of the food chain? Every time there has been a real working example of communal living, your corporate top guns have come along with their advanced technology and religions and slaughtered these peoples. For the record just because Russia and the West said it was communist state doesn’t actually mean they practiced communal living.
Why, I hear the West call’s themselves democratic….. “The spirit of democracy cannot be imposed from without. It has to come from within”, “In true democracy every man and women is taught to think for himself or herself.” , “Corruption and hypocrisy ought not to be inevitable products of democracy, as they undoubtedly are today” Apply these to your democratic country?
Wow I've actually communicated with someone that thinks that people hauled blocks up, what ramps, to build the pyramids Your too much!

Originally posted by pieman

Originally posted by Fatality
You eat what and how much you are allowed to eat.

ever heard of the FDA?

You listen and watch what you are allowed .

ever heard of the FCC?

Freedom of speech is basically inexistent.

ever heard of libel?

You don't own anything.

have you got a credit rating?

No real elections.

weather there is one party or there are two parties or 26 parties, so long as the choice is between 2 people with exactly the same policies who will enact the will of their corporate backers, there will never be real elections, at least communists are honest about it.

People on top will always have everything even more than they have nowadays

that's just not possible, they have everything they want, if they want more, they have the means to get it. tell me what "they" can't take?

"they" convinced the people that the abuses of power that the soviets used was unique to communism, they've drilled into us that capitalism was immune to oppression. since the collapse of the USSR western governments have incrementally instituted soviet style power and control mechanisms while telling us we are free.

look around you, the west is building toward romania in 1989. point out the differances!!

it's about power, blaming communism was a slight of hand.

Don't get me wrong , this was directed towards the communist question. I live in USA now and i totally agree with you. All signs lead towards what i have stated above. Are we there yet? No, however if they keep doing what they're doing we will end up in a identical situation or ever worse.


Now regarding to the question posed previously if communism would work if the leader would have a good intention .. sincerely it might. But that will never happen. Because that would mean that the leaders would have to have the same opportunities as everyone else. That is the main problem the leader can choose that but human nature will not allow them to do so and second option is to silence the ones that talk against them having more , which is what they do. And when civil rights and liberties are taken away , sooner or later the regime fails.

Originally posted by kawacat
reply to post by Skyfloating

 

I think communism could work - it is only distorted by those who have power.

And unfortunately, power rules.

And don't forget the people - > In the end, everything fails because of the people.

It's neither good nor bad, it's neutral. All ideologies can be perverted. Whether or not communism could work hinges on the people of a society just like everything else.

[edit on 16-2-2010 by Solomons]

reply to post by silent thunder


Hogwash, Humans wouldn't be prospering and prolificating the way we are seeing were it not for our sense of local community and family. Prior to capitalism's introduction approx. 3 hundred years ago, humans in their original state had small communities that cooperated. Sure there was evil acts of thievery and barbarism but the small villages and communities functioned in a more communal, barter/trade sense. The very word community comes from communal.
Humans spend the most amount of time rearing their young, we need touch, nurturing, and being held and provided for. Its not like we are turtles who are born and start a solo journey down the beach and into the great sea of life all by ourselves.

Abandoning senior family members and not caring to know and benefit from neighbor is a very new concept that has popped up thanks to huge cities, paranoia, greed self centeredness, narcissism, ego.

Look at all the primitive communities of people who revered their elders and made sure they ate first and were looked after, sought out for their wisdom and insight and experience. Sure they warred with other tribes but the internal core functioned in a communal sense.

As a huge economic societal engine communism has problems, like any other skism or shisim, but you can't convince me that humanity at its roots doesn't have a sense of community that is akin to communism. Further it shouldn't be demonized the way some American sentiment does as if their rights to accrue excessive capital are being threatened.

The loose affiliations of millionaires and billionaires that deal and scratch each others backs in the pursuit of profits is in and of itself a kind of self serving capitalistic communism. Because the poor sure aren't getting richer

[edit on 16-2-2010 by sparrowstail]

[edit on 16-2-2010 by sparrowstail]

most of the stuff that concerns us is best dealt with at a local and communal level. how much milk costs, the speed limit you should adhere to, the way the school is run, what time your work shift starts at.

a centralized governing body (government or corporate) administratively deciding all this stuff just leads to problems and difficulties that need to be administratively overcome which leads to an ever expanding administration apperatus.

while there is a limited requirement for macro government, like defense and communication, the interaction most of us have with these bodies should be minimal.

the concept of a soviet was intended to address this, the collective body of workers running the factory or laborers running the farm, and the difficulties associated with communism didn't arise until the apparatus of the state started to interfere with this local administration.

the problem with communism wasn't communism, the problem, as always, seems to have been a micro-managing centralized government and the inefficacies and bureaucratic indifference/control this breeds.

Originally posted by mlmijyd

Originally posted by silent thunder

Originally posted by mlmijyd
reply to post by silent thunder

 

Oh for goodness sake people. Communal living and cooperation is what we do!!!!! Its the natural way for us to be, its only our negative programming and Global Elite manipulation of our lives that prevents it and has us on this hamster wheel of struggling to pay ‘their’ never satisfied Bankster taxes. Simple.

A judcious study of history reveals all kinds of brutality and savagry on every continent, among all peoples, long before there were "banksters." It is true that there have been successful examples of communial living and cooperation throughout history, but they are generally exceptions to the rule and generally didn't last very long before devolving into petty infighting.

Humans are carnivorous apes and we didn't make it to the top of the food chain by being all warm n' fuzzy n' stuff. Just ask a Roman slave or an Egyptian hauling blocks to build the pyramids.

I'd like to be excluded from your collective inclusion if you actually believe that we need to eat meat to survive and if you think we are at the top of the food chain? Every time there has been a real working example of communal living, your corporate top guns have come along with their advanced technology and religions and slaughtered these peoples. For the record just because Russia and the West said it was communist state doesn’t actually mean they practiced communal living.
Why, I hear the West call’s themselves democratic….. “The spirit of democracy cannot be imposed from without. It has to come from within”, “In true democracy every man and women is taught to think for himself or herself.” , “Corruption and hypocrisy ought not to be inevitable products of democracy, as they undoubtedly are today” Apply these to your democratic country?
Wow I've actually communicated with someone that thinks that people hauled blocks up, what ramps, to build the pyramids

Your too much!

You make incorrect assumptions about where I live and what I believe. Please look in the mirror before being so quick to judge.

Kind regards,

Silent Thunder.

Even communism will have the official elite in the form of politburo or "people's committee" who will hold the power. In case of democracy, the difference is that people think that they are voting politicians to power whereas the reality is that there is a shadow elite that pulls the string.

reply to post by order in chaos


Democracy is nothing more than mob rule, and when the mob are gullible fools only bad things can come of it. In any case i have actually read the communist manifesto, but it was a very painful and frustrating read(for me atleast) very hard to digest... i found myself having to read 5 pages...go back and read them again etc. In any case i see nothing wrong with giving communism a shot . I think a communist type ideology will be needed in the future when countries and borders are a thing of the past. A big cultural change would be needed though where primitive accumulation is no more.

[edit on 16-2-2010 by Solomons]

Looking back through history, one should conclude that Communism is an epic failure of human thought. A massive mistake that denies the primacy of the individual.

Humans are not meant to live like livestock.

The only problem with communism is the greedy Elitist at the desk.
And When you really look at it that's why we don't use it.
Without the guy at the desk so to seek "profiting" from communism it would be fine.
On a community based Level.
IMO with a shaman that leads in visions and such.
Mainly because with the shaman's ego so far gone he wouldn't be worried about moneys.
Which we could probably call shamunnism?

Communism is a beautiful form of government....for ants.

People are not ants...some people are (arguably) overly industrious while others are barely productive at all.

I tend to believe that both should be provided with the bare minimum to survive (health, shelter, clothing), but anything beyond that should be something that you have produced and secured for yourself by your personal drive.

If you work your butt off, you should be able to have the nice car and mansion on the beach...if you want to be a flunky do-nothing street sweeper, then you should simply deal with a 1 room studio flat cube and rationed government food...maybe a bike. Want more? then get out and work for it. No need to hammer the people truely making an effort in society to improve themselves so we can comfort those wishing to do nothing.

exception to the rule would be mentally ill, disabled, elderly, and other special cases like this that should have a more elevated comfort level in life.

Communism will not work so long as people remain people...but there is nothing wrong with the overall concept in a philosophical sense...and communism works great in households also (share a home with 2-3 other roommates and that becomes the defacto form of household government)

Originally posted by SaturnFX
Want more? then get out and work for it. No need to hammer the people truely making an effort in society to improve themselves so we can comfort those wishing to do nothing.

So this applies then to Rich Daddy who wants to give his son an apartment building to lord over to get him started in the real estate business?