Utah Debates Dropping 12th Grade to Save Money!?

Reporting from Denver - At Utah's West Jordan High School, the halls have swirled lately with debate over the merits of 12th grade: Is it a waste of time? Are students ready for the real world at 17?

The sudden buzz over the relative value of senior year stems from a recent proposal by state Sen. Chris Buttars that Utah make a dent in its budget gap by eliminating the 12th grade.

The notion quickly gained some traction among supporters who agreed with the Republican's assessment that many seniors frittered away their final year of high school, but faced vehement opposition from other quarters, including in his hometown of West Jordan.

LA Times

Is Utah run by morons? They need to save money so the first thing that comes to mind is cutting the 12th grade? Seriously?

Why not take some of that "war on drugs" money and put that into education instead? Apparently to this republican senator, your kids can be unemployable and uneducated as long as they don't smoke that joint.

Is the idea of raising taxes so reprehensible to republicans that they'd take your child's education, and possibly future, over tacking on a couple extra percent over a number of years?

Who elected this genius? Do the people of Utah have anything to say about this?

I see that he's since watered down his proposal by saying he wants to make 12th grade optional, which is just begging for kids to leave school early.

I personally support the idea(a little biased since I am in High School). But many very developed countries such as Germany only go to school until they are 15 or 16(Germany). There is nothing wrong with the maximum grade being 10th or 11th. It would even help because that would mean less number of years parents have to take care of their kids, like graduating college at 19 or 20 would be a whole lot better than 22. Also I agree that this should not be the first area to be cut, there are too many other stupid things being funded that should be cut first.

S+F

[edit on 2/15/10 by Misoir]

[edit on 2/15/10 by Misoir]

"The bottom line is saving taxpayer dollars while improving options for students," said state Sen. Howard A. Stephenson

No, not really. Heck, I'll give you a maybe but isn't the "bottom line" eroding the idyllic "good ol days" of Republicans? Think WalMart.


Way to pander State Sen Stephenson.

reply to post by Misoir


If it's too much money to simply maintain the 12th grade, what makes you believe that it would be cheaper to improve the entire school system to such a degree that the 12th would be irrelevant anyway?

I agree that there's nothing inherently wrong with school being 11 years long instead of 12. But for that to make sense, your 11 years would have to contain at least as much education as 12 did previously... they're just talking about cutting a year without making any other changes, that would cost money otherwise and defeat the purpose.

reply to post by ZombieOctopus


If they are looking to save money in this way, I'd suggest taking it further right from the start. They would make high school optional altogether so long as the students pass a comprehensive set of tests, put together an open source, gradeless curriculum that the students would tackle on their own and change the job of the high school teachers to act as tutors.

The prior two grades of junior high would remain mostly the same, but with a focus on both helping past the students with puberty issues, and to teach them how to learn on their own.

Best way to cut spending ... Cut the athletic departments. Kids don't need these things for their educations. In fact, by cutting these programs, not only would they save money, but they would have more money to spend on real education expenses.

Football - Basketball - Baseball - Volleyball - Softball - Track - Golf - Gymnastics - Swimming - Weight Lifting ....

I'm sure there are other athletic programs out there that some high schools offer that I didn't mention.

Our children, and our country, would be better off if we focused on TRUE education.

The amount of money that is thrown at these programs can be down right disgusting when you start matching numbers.
The money they spend on facilities, equipment, training aids, coaches, travel expenses, medical expenses, etc. Would add up to be a HUGE sum of money that could be used to raise teachers salaries, better books, labs, computers, libraries.

Originally posted by Lhuhikwdwoo
with a focus on both helping past the students with puberty issues, and to teach them how to learn on their own.

Puberty issues? Had a rough time in high school eh lol

what is the 12´th grade ?

at least here in Finland after the 9th grade you can go to the gymnasium or Vocational school and after that to the university or Polytechnic and after i guess you can start over with what ever subject you want to specialize in.

Originally posted by Detailed Perfection
Best way to cut spending ... Cut the athletic departments. Kids don't need these things for their educations. In fact, by cutting these programs, not only would they save money, but they would have more money to spend on real education expenses.

Football - Basketball - Baseball - Volleyball - Softball - Track - Golf - Gymnastics - Swimming - Weight Lifting ....

I'm sure there are other athletic programs out there that some high schools offer that I didn't mention.

Our children, and our country, would be better off if we focused on TRUE education.

The amount of money that is thrown at these programs can be down right disgusting when you start matching numbers.
The money they spend on facilities, equipment, training aids, coaches, travel expenses, medical expenses, etc. Would add up to be a HUGE sum of money that could be used to raise teachers salaries, better books, labs, computers, libraries.

It's sad to that you view sports that way, they offer much more then just helping our youth get in shape.

I personally would agree with this but also feel the system as a whole needs to be looked at. My senior year I was told I would need to go into a special program to graduate because I had not taken enough electives and the honors courses I had taken wouldn't count towards them. I almost didn't graduate on time because I took honors history over cooking or pottery class.

Most seniors spend this last year messing around and taking few classes of any worth.

reply to post by whoshotJR


Why is it sad that I view sports that way?

They offer more than just keeping kids in shape? Like what?

And just so you know ... I played sports all through school starting with T-Ball in the 1st grade. I don't have any kind of anti-sports agenda because I was a nerd that got picked on by the jocks.

I just think that students would benefit more without athletic departments sucking away millions of dollars in funding from education departments that have more to offer.

reply to post by whoshotJR


in most countries you dont even get a grade from sports class since it s viewed as it does not contribute in anyway except if your applying to a sports academy in which case it does contribute.

and i agree , school is for learning , past time is for playing
but i how ever do agree that sports all and all cant be taken out of the school system.

but i must say that taking pottery or cooking class just because you getting flunked sounds more like wasted money on a student who acturly didnt belong at that grade of school in the first place.

[edit on 15-2-2010 by zerbot565]

Originally posted by zerbot565
reply to post by whoshotJR

 

in most countries you dont even get a grade from sports class since it s viewed as it does not contribute in anyway except if your applying to a sports academy in which case it does contribute.

and i agree , school is for learning , past time is for playing
but i how ever do agree that sports all and all cant be taken out of the school system.

but i must say that taking pottery or cooking class just because you getting flunked sounds more like wasted money on a student who acturly didnt belong at that grade of school in the first place.

[edit on 15-2-2010 by zerbot565]

Either I'm misunderstanding you or you misunderstood me. I wasn't flunking, you must take a certain amount of elective credits to graduate high school. Electives are things like cooking, gym and pottery. I took real classes and they didn't count.

Sports teaches you about competition and social interactions with others. It helps you stay in shape but it also can build relationships that can last you a lifetime.

Sports is also a large industry.

If they wanted to save money, they could always divide the 11th and 12th grades (or just the 12th) into smaller segments that add on to the "summer break".

I think it's high time we, as a nation, discuss why exactly we cease school for 3 months during the summer. Students could gain valuable work experience during their 17th and 18th years, perhaps even save for college, do internships or apprenticeships.

reply to post by whoshotJR


the flunked word might have been wrong but i understood what you ment ,

over here after the ninth grade you go to gymnasium or Vocational school and after youve graduated your entitled to apply to either university or Polytechnic,

the main difference is that you cant "major in football" over here you have to have a real subject which youve studied , sports only accounts if you want to go to an athletes "school" only difference between here and over there is that even thou your good at soccer or tennis none of the sports will realy get you a job hence why the sports grade is viewed as a minor factor if nill on your degree.

secondly over here you choose a direction(after ninth grade) in which you want to study science,biology,economics etc etc and individualy choosen classes which has no real basis in the field you study only accounts for classes completed but not as a major factor on your degree, for instance flunking cooking class when your studying economics is not a major factor when you apply for a higher degree of learning , you might get a few points for the weeks you studied but you still need to have completed the "course" you wanted to major in plus you need to pass the exam.

i understand that spots is a big buissnes over in the usa, ive seen schools that have olympic size swimming pools and what not but most of thous schools ive seen had realy poor educational value taugth to the pupils, all money that should go to education is pushed aside for athletical benefits which in the long run wont get your child a competent degree if they want to get a job as an architect or micro biologist nor at a steel mill.

1/10000 athletes only success in getting a name for them selfs that get the bread and milk home, and with such low numbers education should be a priority not how fit you are.

but i do agree that sports class is something that cant be dropped from the school system i just dont see what a degree in football will do when you apply for a job at a supermarket or a lawfirm.

Originally posted by whoshotJR
Sports teaches you about competition and social interactions with others. It helps you stay in shape but it also can build relationships that can last you a lifetime.

Sports is also a large industry.

True, sports do teach you about competition and team work, but so does educational based labs, and competitions.

And as far as "social interactions" that's exactly what schools and classrooms are.

Jethro, I agree with you about the summer vacation. There's no feasible explination as to why students take 3months off from school. Sure it's nice to get a break from the same old thing, but 3 months is irresponsible, IMO.
Extend school throughout the year and have a few week long break periods scheduled. Spring Break, Summer Break, Fall Break, Winter Break.
4 weeks out of 52, plus the usual "holidays" that they take is more than enough down time.

reply to post by Detailed Perfection


they did this when i was in high school. the school board decided to cut sports and high school students across the city walked out and protested. needless to say, we got our sports back.

cutting sports is an awful idea, i've seen what it can do to a school. we were 1 full year without sports activities and it lowered the morale of the entire school board. that was one of the dumbest moves i ever saw the school board make. thankfully, they quickly realized it was a mistake and they corrected it.

now on the idea of cutting the 12th grade. we used to have 13 grades. they cut grade 13 and rearranged the curriculum so that we were still learning the same information, just in 4 years instead of 5. most of the people (including myself) stayed the extra year anyway. it didnt negatively effect any of us to be honest...the only difference was that there was 1 year when 2 graduating classes per school were applying to post secondary schools, so it was a bit more competitive and the colleges and universities had more students, but everything worked out ok in the end.

edit to add* sports programs can help unite schools..and teach students about the importance of being a good winner and a good loser. too many people today are either sore winners or sore losers. and the sports programs at my school required a certain grade level in order to be on the team. it contributes to academic success as well.

[edit on 15-2-2010 by devilishlyangelic23]

reply to post by ZombieOctopus


I take it you don't know how educational systems work around the world and those systems are alot more advanced the the US...in the UK "high school" finishes when ur 16 and then if u choose to you can go higher than that...

17/18 y/o are more than capable to take care of theselves, so no the Sen is not a moron...i know that my senior yeah was filled with classes i didn't have to take, like having 2 choir classes and then leaving half day, so that year really wasn't needed

You sound funny with all of your hostility lol

reply to post by ZombieOctopus


I take it you don't know how educational systems work around the world and those systems are alot more advanced the the US...in the UK "high school" finishes when ur 16 and then if u choose to you can go higher than that...

17/18 y/o are more than capable to take care of theselves, so no the Sen is not a moron...i know that my senior yeah was filled with classes i didn't have to take, like having 2 choir classes and then leaving half day, so that year really wasn't needed

You sound funny with all of your hostility lol

reply to post by Goradd


First of all, I don't live in America.

Second, you missed the point of my post entirely. Congrats on your superior education, it shows.

reply to post by ZombieOctopus


you live in canada its the same thing...and you clearly asked if the Senator was a moron and i answered you question....so when you ask questions you're going to get answers