Rape? It's the fault of the victims, say 50 per cent of women, page 12

posted on Feb, 15 2010 @ 01:41 PM

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reply to post by OutKast Searcher

If I am drunk and he is drunk and we end up having sex and the next morning I cry rape, the courts will likely not take the case.

If they do it will be because I can prove ejaculate, proving erection, and a possible less drunken state than me, but in any case it will be hard to prosecute.

Even harder for the man if he chooses to go legal the next morning.

So yes this is a straw man.

I am discussing the act of RAPE which means sex against your will.

In the both drunk scenerio, I would say that IS a gray area, and thus why I am trying to stay ON topic by discussing rape.

Lets say two mentally retarded people have sex. Do we put them both away because neither can give informed consent?

Do we put both male and female drunk in jail because neither gave informed consent?

Instead of just cutting down MY opinion, please let me know how you think these gray areas should be resolved legally.

smyleegrl

posted on Feb, 15 2010 @ 01:42 PM

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I agree that this is the problem with our society...and your way of thinking is allowing for this to happen.

I'm not saying that the man who committed the robery is not at fault...he is definatley at fault. I am saying is the man taking out and showing his money is also at fault.

Your way of thinking is giving the message that people should be able to do anything they want and should never be responsible if their stupid actions make them a victim of a crime.

YOU are the one encouraging people to not take responsibility for their own actions...not me.

reply to post by OutKast Searcher

We are talking about two different things here.

Fault.....your actions. In the case of the robber and the two potential victims. The robber chose to rob someone. His fault.

Reprucussions of your decisions......belongs to everyone. The two potential victims had a choice in how to behave. One chose to behave wisely (prepared to defend himself) and one chose to behave like an idiot (flashing cash and clueless). Does the idiot who got robbed have to face the consequences? Yes. He'll probably be thinking "I should have done this," beat himself up over it, etc. Hopefully he'll learn a lesson and act with more common sense next time.

But to say both the victim and perpetrator share fault, sorry. I can't agree with that.

jeanvaljean

posted on Feb, 15 2010 @ 01:42 PM

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reply to post by elevatedone

Hi, elevatedone. I completely agree. You can buy the ticket, you can board the train, you can enjoy the ride; but at no time do you lose the right to get off that train.

sos37

posted on Feb, 15 2010 @ 01:42 PM

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Originally posted by zatara

THAT IS 100% THE FAULT OF THE RAPIST.

I'll never agree to that at least if you meant to say "THAT IS 100% THE FAULT OF THE RAPIST 100% OF THE TIME"

That's an absolute and totally acquits the victim of ANY actions he/she was doing prior to the rape happening, no matter what those actions are.

That logic completely escapes me.

seagull

posted on Feb, 15 2010 @ 01:43 PM

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reply to post by novacs4me

In all too many cases that's what happens. The woman, or man, blames themselves. They shouldn't. Only the perpetrator of the act is to blame. Nor should anyone attempt to parcel off any blame onto the victim. That's horrifically wrong, and unfair.

teapot

posted on Feb, 15 2010 @ 01:43 PM

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Originally posted by Dock9
The study, which was compiled from data obtained from rape clinics, reports that more women than men blamed the victim

Does this mean that men (or women) know what they're talking about, when it comes to rape ?

The study also shows that women between the ages of 18 and 24 are more likely to believe the victim 'asked for it'.

Women in this group are also more competitive, less forgiving of other women and less likely to have developed a sense of 'sister-hood'.

Rape is ALWAYS wrong, the victim NEVER deserves it.

Both men and women need to accept that, when it comes to rape, a MAN is always responsible for HIS actions.

[edit on 15/2/2010 by teapot]

plutoxgirl

posted on Feb, 15 2010 @ 01:44 PM

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Originally posted by zatara

THAT IS 100% THE FAULT OF THE RAPIST.

I second this

And it's terrible to hear that SOME women think it's the victims fault. Because of the way they dress?, because of not being careful enough?-
what the heck?!!

Such lack of compassion and understanding. What a surprise.

.

Oh well, I think no one should spit up in the air.
It falls down, eventually.

hotbakedtater

posted on Feb, 15 2010 @ 01:46 PM

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reply to post by sos37

really? Because you dont like what I have to say you will just QUIT debating me? Gosh, that was an easy victory!

Edit to add I cannot stand someone bashing my opinion over and over, and then ignoring my logical VALID rational responses, goes and CHICKENS out of the whole debate. Quitter. Defend your viewpoint like I am, or do not start with it at all.

I certainly would not have wasted my time replying to you if I had known you were not interested in a true debate, but some kind of conversion to your opinion. That is not how debates work.

[edit on 15-2-2010 by hotbakedtater]

smyleegrl

posted on Feb, 15 2010 @ 01:46 PM

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I entered this discussion because there was someone specifically saying this.

reply to post by OutKast Searcher

Then my apologies to you.

Apparently we were discussing two separate things.

Now I have to go back and re-read this whole thread again just to try and find the right arguments!

OutKast Searcher

posted on Feb, 15 2010 @ 01:46 PM

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Originally posted by Selahobed
Should i be allowed to wear what I want to wear?

Am I responsible for mens lack of control?

Am I allowed to say no at anytime... Even during? And shouldn't my wishes be respected?

Do I deserve to be punched and kicked when i refuse? Or worse??

Should I be allowed to drive an expensive sports car into the ghetto...at night...with the windows down...and not paying attention to my surrondings? Yes I am allowed...but it is a stupid decision.

Am I responsible for a car jackers lack of morals? No...I am not.

Am I allowed to inform the car jacker that this is MY property and shouldn't my wishes be respected? I could try.

Do I deserve to be punched and kicked (or worse) when I refuse to hand over my car? No.

BUT

Do I share some RESPONSIBILITY for driving my expensive sports car into a high crime area???

If you saw this story on the news would you claim I shared no fault in my car being stolen? Would you just say that it was the car jacker who is at fault? or would you call me stupid for driving into a high crime area at night?

yeahright

posted on Feb, 15 2010 @ 01:47 PM

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The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

reply to post by sos37

People can blather in public all they want. As long as the end result isn't-

1- Victims being in fear to come forward and report rape crimes
2- Victims being violated the second time by the system for reporting the crime (which already happens)
3- Rapists having their actions deemed less heinous

then I'm all for making people aware of responsibility, how to act sensibly, ways to minimize becoming a victim etc etc.

The system that's in place today (at least in the US) already makes it extremely stressful to report a rape and continue on with the prosecution.

Someone earlier mentioned how all rapists are presumed guilty upon arrest. I'm not sure what jurisdiction that refers to, but it's typically the victim that gets put on trial here, and for exactly the reasons mentioned in this thread. Oh, she was drinking, she was sexually experienced, she dressed provocatively, she "wanted it and likes it rough", ...

Plenty of barriers already in place to discourage even honest victims from coming forward.

So if someone wants to, in the court of public opinion, further disparage a rape victim and call her "partially responsible", I can't prevent that even if I disagree with it. But I wholeheartedly 100% am opposed to anything that lessens the legal responsibility of the rapist, even a little bit.

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.

OutKast Searcher

posted on Feb, 15 2010 @ 01:48 PM

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Originally posted by tallcool1
reply to post by OutKast Searcher

Oukast - when I was a naive young man and I lived in Augusta, GA for about half a year, I went to purchase some...herbal remedies from a local...herbal remedy distributor. The herbal remedy distributor put a gun in my face and explained to me why I should just hand over all of my money. I reluctantly agreed to his terms and hastily left the area with no money nor herbal remedy.

This was a learning adventure for me, but I don't think it was my "fault". Had I not been in that area looking for random herbal distribution personnel, I would not have forfeited my money. This much is true.I learned a lesson and avoid similar situations now, but it was not my fault that I got robbed. I do understand what you are trying to say, that the crime could have been avoided by the victim...but that does not make the victim at fault in my opinion.

Then this is just where we disagree...and that is fine.

Because I would say that it was partially your fault.

OutKast Searcher

posted on Feb, 15 2010 @ 01:51 PM

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reply to post by hotbakedtater

This is a direct quote from you:

If you as a man willingly put your member in a woman who is NOT SOBER, and the next morning she leaves, goes to the police and files RAPE charges against you, guess what?

YOU RAPED A WOMAN.

If sober consent cannot be given, and you as a man go ahead, YOU ARE A RAPIST.

There is no excuse.

So do you still stand by your quote?

LadySkadi

posted on Feb, 15 2010 @ 01:51 PM

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Agreed. Well Put. Succinct. Totally support what you wrote.

Originally posted by yeahright

People can blather in public all they want. As long as the end result isn't-

1- Victims being in fear to come forward and report rape crimes
2- Victims being violated the second time by the system for reporting the crime (which already happens)
3- Rapists having their actions deemed less heinous

then I'm all for making people aware of responsibility, how to act sensibly, ways to minimize becoming a victim etc etc.

The system that's in place today (at least in the US) already makes it extremely stressful to report a rape and continue on with the prosecution.

Someone earlier mentioned how all rapists are presumed guilty upon arrest. I'm not sure what jurisdiction that refers to, but it's typically the victim that gets put on trial here, and for exactly the reasons mentioned in this thread. Oh, she was drinking, she was sexually experienced, she dressed provocatively, she "wanted it and likes it rough", ...

Plenty of barriers already in place to discourage even honest victims from coming forward.

So if someone wants to, in the court of public opinion, further disparage a rape victim and call her "partially responsible", I can't prevent that even if I disagree with it. But I wholeheartedly 100% am opposed to anything that lessens the legal responsibility of the rapist, even a little bit.

tallcool1

posted on Feb, 15 2010 @ 01:53 PM

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reply to post by OutKast Searcher

Then, respectfully, we agree to disagree. But just to help explain my point of view, I think that part of the problem with the world today is that criminals are allowed to blame others for actions that they know are wrong. Once we allow ourselves to believe a victim of any crime shares the blame, the first domino falls toward complete anarchy and the end of humanity. We become self serving animals. I don't want to be part of that world.

But I do respect your opinion. I just disagree.

OutKast Searcher

posted on Feb, 15 2010 @ 01:57 PM

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reply to post by smyleegrl

There are many definitions for "fault"

My definition can loosely be defined as "did an individuals PERSONAL ACTIONS contribute to the event."

So by my definition...the man who was robbed shares fault...as did the robber. And to some extent so does the man who acted wisely to protect himself...in an indirect way it was his "fault" the other man was robbed.

It is all about PERSONAL responsibility.

Selahobed

posted on Feb, 15 2010 @ 02:00 PM

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reply to post by OutKast Searcher

The analogy is foolish.. There is a lot of difference between an car and a human being.. Cars can be fixed or replaced.. Humans can't.. And if they live through the experience, they will always be plagued with the emotional turmoil that will spill into all their relationships creating many more victims...

Hypothetically... If you were a rapist who got caught and imprisoned, you would have to do a sex offender treatment program.. If you came out with THAT argument during the program the chances of you being released would be zero.....

earthdude

posted on Feb, 15 2010 @ 02:01 PM

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Originally posted by sos37

Originally posted by zatara

THAT IS 100% THE FAULT OF THE RAPIST.

I'll never agree to that at least if you meant to say "THAT IS 100% THE FAULT OF THE RAPIST 100% OF THE TIME"

That's an absolute and totally acquits the victim of ANY actions he/she was doing prior to the rape happening, no matter what those actions are.

That logic completely escapes me.

No matter what the victim did prior to rape is important. When a woman says no, you stop, no matter how much she turned you on.

OutKast Searcher

posted on Feb, 15 2010 @ 02:05 PM

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reply to post by tallcool1

And when I say you are partially at fault...I am only talking personal fault/responsibility...not legally.

I don't think it is a valid defense for the robber to try to say that you were at fault.

Likewise...I don't think it is a valid defense for a rapist to try to argue LEGALLY that it was the women's fault for her type of dress, suggestive acts, or anything else.

But PERSONALLY...you have to take some responsibility. It doesn't excuse the crime...but in some cases people should understand that their actions/decisions made them the victim. And should be able to take responsibility for that.

But it is good we disagree...who wants to live a world where everyone thinks the same

December_Rain

posted on Feb, 15 2010 @ 02:06 PM

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reply to post by Dock9

Well Tbh I don't trust Daily Mail for any news. Just last week I saw 2 disinfo articles from them and I stopped taking them as news. They make wild claims and misrepresent data.

Secondly, I don't care what the poll says...it depends on case every time. Sometimes it's after act guilt, sometimes the rapist is physically strong etc. So no poll can decide on every rape event.