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Man Jailed For Cartoons Of Children

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posted on Feb, 16 2010 @ 04:35 PM
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Originally posted by argentus
That's exactly the point. There IS NO such law within the United States (not allowing a person to criticize the government.) In fact, the founders of the Constitution practically encouraged it.


Again you missed the point. You are saying that because it is illegal that free speech does not ccover it. I am saying that making a law where there is no victim is quite wrong. The law should not exist.


Originally posted by argentus
It's not just disturbing images. They are illegal images and for good reason.


Actually there is no good reason other than the fact that most people don't like the idea of them. However free speech covers that, there are lots of things people don't like. There is no logical reason (forget emotion please) that these should be illegal.


Originally posted by argentus
I can look at a mere "disturbing" image and not like it, but recognize that it is legal to portray. Do you really want pedophelia images to be available to those who crave them? No, of course you don't. Neither do I.


Hang on don't put words in my mouth. Do i want paedophilic images available? If they involve real children then no, absolutely not. If they portray real children using some realistic CGI, then absolutely ban them.

If however they are cartoon images and the use of said images can stop paedophiles using images of real children and even stop them abusing children, then yes allow them.


Originally posted by argentus
If they are found in a person's posession, should we require the person to go into counseling? Possibly. I don't believe the whole thing should be just swept under the carpet. The owner of those images probably has a serious problem. They possibly even know it is wrong, legally, morally and socialogically.


You've finally raised a good point. If you search around for information on this you will find psychologists often talk of self hating paedophiles. They are not paedophiles who go out and abuse schildren but they have an attraction to children and often use pornography involving children.

Now would you prefer they use the real thing and a child has to be abused to produce it, or would you prefer they use these cartoons? I know you would prefer they use neither, and i agree with you on that, but they will find something to use because sexual drive is a very pwoerful thing.




posted on Feb, 16 2010 @ 04:42 PM
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reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984
 


this subject is very touchy and i think those people should be punished. i know its easy after a while of living this life and seeing all we see to talk ourselfs out of what is right and wrong and be convinced that "hey it was only a cartoon of a kid getting raped" but think about that for a second. of all the things to see in the world they chose that. how sad to think its ok because its not real....yet. think of that cartoon as a gateway drug, after a while it will not be enough and they will move onto more "interesting" things. sometimes i hate the world and the evil people in it. i am a survivor of childhood abuse and now that i have my own child i am terrified all over again trying to keep him safe from a monster that just haunts my memories. it takes a lifetime to get over this type of thing and i hope my child doesn't have to endure what i did!!! cause thats' gonna be one dead sob.



posted on Feb, 16 2010 @ 04:43 PM
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reply to post by harvib
 



What a sad society we have become. It used to be common place for parents to share pictures of their new born baby. Now these same parents could be imprisoned for child porn and we have people that would support such imprisonment.


Just to clarify, Harvib....... I don't believe that parents that share newborn, infant, toddler, etc. images are breaking any laws or moral boundaries. I said "they should not share them on the internet", because of ped-miners who might capture, share, get gratification from them.

I wholly acknowlege that I have serious issues with pedophiles. I think they are the bottom tier of humanity. I wouldn't necessarily classify a 23-year-old adult having sex with a willing 16-year-old as pedophilia. It's statuatory rape, and I don't necessarily agree with that term either. An adult who craves sexual relations with a child is the lowest of human creatures, in my opinion, and I tend to have strong opinions about them. These are also issues that have ruined the lives (at least temporarily) of children of people close to me, so it's in the forefront of my mind.

Thus, I apologize if I've spoken too forcefully. It's an issue that matters to me, and one that makes my skin crawl. I feel very protective of children and their rights, as I'm sure you do as well.



posted on Feb, 16 2010 @ 04:47 PM
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Originally posted by argentus
I wholly acknowlege that I have serious issues with pedophiles. I think they are the bottom tier of humanity. I wouldn't necessarily classify a 23-year-old adult having sex with a willing 16-year-old as pedophilia. It's statuatory rape, and I don't necessarily agree with that term either. An adult who craves sexual relations with a child is the lowest of human creatures, in my opinion, and I tend to have strong opinions about them. These are also issues that have ruined the lives (at least temporarily) of children of people close to me, so it's in the forefront of my mind.

Thus, I apologize if I've spoken too forcefully. It's an issue that matters to me, and one that makes my skin crawl. I feel very protective of children and their rights, as I'm sure you do as well.



You do not have to apologise for all that because everyone here is right with you. I hate paedophiles, i hold them up as worse than murderers. Any person who is abusing children or watching the abuse of children is below scum.

People using these cartoons are sick and i hope they get counselling, however if they are not abusing children and if these images actively help them deal with their sexual urges and keep them under control, then yes i will defend the right for them to have these images.



posted on Feb, 16 2010 @ 04:51 PM
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reply to post by harvib
 


No bullying here. I think if I wanted to bully that I could do alot better than the statement you are referring to. And by the way,in NONE of my posts did I try to insult anyone, either directly or indirectly as you have. Nor will I. Also I wont waste any time debunking you or imagine reality1984's attempted spin doctoring of what Ive written here, because anyone who would make a judgement based on the partial re-posting of anothers writings is probably not someone I could learn much from anyway.

Later tater
p.s
I dont even think I was adressing the entire forum or yourself with what you referred to in your diotribe. I believe I have aproached this and everyone here with dignity and respect. Please correct me if wrong and show where I have done otherwise.

[edit on 16-2-2010 by psyko45]

[edit on 16-2-2010 by psyko45]



posted on Feb, 16 2010 @ 04:51 PM
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reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984
 


I don't think you and I are far apart at all. I disagree that the cartoons should be allowed as a substitute for real activities. I think there is an identifiable problem with some folks that are, sadly, broken.

I think it was right to jail the person posessing these images. I would hope that there was subsequent counseling, and yes, I am aware of the self-loathing professed by some pedophiles. I saw it in a courtroom firsthand, and heard a person sob and wail with true remorse and proclaim that they couldn't help themselves.

Again, I find it difficult, because of what I've seen and know to separate myself from the emotional facets. I tend to think that those that might gain temporary mollification of their desires with cartoon images will most likely eventually escalate. I have a hard time seeing these cartoons as a sort of analogue of methdone to a heroin addict. Not trying to put words in your mouth with that last sentence, just trying to clarify.



posted on Feb, 16 2010 @ 05:25 PM
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reply to post by argentus
 


I understand your emotional convictions and your stance on this issue.

I also have seen firsthand the horrors of child abuse and molestation, in fact I narrowly escaped it myself in the last place you would expect ...

When I was around 7, my mother was friends with a foster couple who took in foster kids, and we would visit them regularly. I was friends with the kids and at first glance everything seemed nice enough ... They lived in a large house, had 3 square meals a day, the necessities and more etc.

They seemed like a loving family that consisted of the parents, a teen girl (the eldest) her preteen brother, (the middle child) and a little boy (the youngest) whom although was not related to them by blood was their brother.

Occasionally though the older brother would tell me about "trouble" but he would never give details, only that he was troubled and that he was depressed. I never could understand why he seemed so depressed whenever I stayed over at his house everything seemed so perfect.

Sometimes when I visited, the foster father would put the sister, the older brother and I in a room to watch a movie while he would go into another part of the house with the little brother ... He and the little brother seemed very close and they were always together ... it was almost unnatural to me, but I was only 7 or so and I had no suspicions at the time.

This activity would happen often and sometimes the father would switch off between the kids he would take with him to be alone. None of them said anything to me about what happened to them but they each seemed troubled.

In the later years I found out that the foster father had been molesting all of his kids and especially the younger brother. Luckily I was never abused in such a way ... but to think I was actually in the same house when this happened sickens me to this day. Luckily the sister finally told the foster mother ... who had no idea even though it took place in her own home, her husband was the culprit, and her children were the victims.

When the authorities found out the couple lost their foster license and the father was sent to prison while the mother lost her kids, her house and ended up living in her car. I cannot image the suffering that her and her children have gone through because of that man. I have seen lives ruined because of these disgusting human beings ... and I honestly believe anything that keeps them at bay ... even if just a little longer ... is well worth it if it saves even just one child from such pain and suffering.

Not only that but these cartoons have no victims (in my opinion) ... and I must stay true to my beliefs of freedom and justice ... even if my emotions say otherwise. It is not always easy, but I believe it is the right thing to do.

I just thought I would just share this with you guys ...


[edit on 16-2-2010 by Nurv47]



posted on Feb, 16 2010 @ 05:30 PM
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reply to post by argentus
 





Movies are fiction, right?


So are cartoons, right?




Images that are clearly engaging pedophiles do not fall into the same category


First off you are assuming that the comic books are "clearly engaging pedophiles". I am not sure how you know that to be the case.

Secondly, the whole "saw" movie franchise engages individuals who gain something by viewing such depravity. Not only does it portray it, it does it in the most realistic and graphic of fashion. If you are for the banning of one form of media and the imprisonment of those who collect such works then I don't understand how you could allow movies like the saw and those who view those movies to remain free?



[edit on 16-2-2010 by harvib]



posted on Feb, 16 2010 @ 05:41 PM
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reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984
 


Please show me clinical studies where child pornography keeps predators at bay. Every expert Ive spoken to reguarding this issue states the polar opposite. That pornography of any kind simply feeds and embellishes the fantasy and causes one to wish to fufill it. So this ridiculous argument that states this type of child porn keeps the predator at home is simply innacurate as well as insulting to an educated mind. I really hope you all are just playing "devils advocate " here.



posted on Feb, 16 2010 @ 05:45 PM
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reply to post by argentus
 





I wholly acknowlege that I have serious issues with pedophiles. I think they are the bottom tier of humanity.


Agreed. However we need to make sure that the legislation we support does not make criminals out of comic book collectors or artist. I haven't seen these comic books and the article is vague. I would like my children to grow up in a world where there is not the possibility of them becoming prey. I don't see how this legislation does this. I also don't understand how imprisoning a comic book collector does this.

In my view legislation like this threatens my children because it does nothing to protect them but increases the likely hood that they may end up imprisoned for reading unsanctioned material. From legislation like the one being debated, it is not a far reach to make the claim that certain literature is only being created to appeal to terrorist, for example.



posted on Feb, 16 2010 @ 05:56 PM
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reply to post by psyko45
 


I don't even consider it child porn seeing as how it doesn't involve children ... simply depiction of fictional children ... pointless and pathetic indeed, but grounds to be illegal and labeled child porn? I think not.

Anyways.

Will it not help?

I have never read any studies about people that are attracted to adults being more likely to rape someone because of watching adult porn ...

and since pedophiles shouldn't have access to real child porn ... for obvious reasons ... aren't these cartoons a better alternative?

That's just what I see ...

I don't think that these pedophiles are in possession of these cartoons is the reason that they are at increased risk for harming a real child ... but rather because they are pedophiles to begin with. I think all pedophiles should receive help for their problem ... (except those that have abused children, they deserve prison or worse) ... the point is though ... there is no reason for these cartoons to be banned anyways.



posted on Feb, 16 2010 @ 05:58 PM
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reply to post by psyko45
 





I dont even think I was adressing the entire forum or yourself with what you referred to in your diotribe. I believe I have aproached this and everyone here with dignity and respect. Please correct me if wrong and show where I have done otherwise.


I took the following quote:


And all of the attention this is getting is bound to draw out some REAL sympathizers who will bear further scrutiny. So if you are on here and you seriously believe that this child porn should be a legitimate industry and that it has no victims....The Eyes of The Eagle Are Upon You.


to indicate that those who oppose this legislation may be "REAL" sympathizers. If i misunderstood you, I apologize. You must understand that the tactic I believed you to be using is one that is commonly used to coherence people into not questioning policy. It is commonly used as if you don't support our view then you must support them. It is why more people don't question certain legislation. Who would want to be labeled a communist sympathizer, or a terrorist sympathizer, or in this case a pedophile sympathizer.




Later tater


after while crocodile.



posted on Feb, 16 2010 @ 06:03 PM
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Originally posted by psyko45
Please show me clinical studies where child pornography keeps predators at bay. Every expert Ive spoken to reguarding this issue states the polar opposite. That pornography of any kind simply feeds and embellishes the fantasy and causes one to wish to fufill it. So this ridiculous argument that states this type of child porn keeps the predator at home is simply innacurate as well as insulting to an educated mind. I really hope you all are just playing "devils advocate " here.


Clinical studies are difficult to find for very obvious reasons. However if you check the rates of a crime like rape and compare it to pornography use you will find that countries with increased pornography use tend to have lower rates of rape. Psychologists say this is because the porn gives people a release.

I am applying this same thinking to these cartoon images. However we can also look at the country these images come from, Japan. The consumption of this type of pornography in Japan vastly outstrips the USA and yet the rate of abuse in Japan is lower than the USA.


An article about pornography including rape rates and child abuse

From said article



Other researchers have found similarly. In Denmark homosexual child molestation decreased more than 50 percent from 74 cases in 1966 to 20 cases in 1969 (Ben-Veniste, 1971; pp. 254). These decreases in sex crimes involving children are particularly noteworthy since in Japan, as in Denmark, for the time under review, there were no laws against the personal non-commercial possession or use of depictions of children involved in sexual activities; so-called "childporn" (Kutchinsky, 1985a; pp. 5). Considering the seriousness in how sex crimes against children are viewed in both cultures, this drop in cases reported represents a real reduction in the number of offenses committed rather than a reduced readiness to report such offenses.



In sum, the concern that countries allowing pornography would show increased sex crime rates due to modeling or that adolescents in particular would be negatively vulnerable to and receptive to such models or the society would be otherwise adversely effected has not been vindicated. It is certainly clear from our data and analysis that a massive increase in available pornography in Japan has been correlated with a dramatic decrease in sexual crimes and most so among youngsters as perpetrators or victims. We have mentioned some possible influential factors.


I find it odd that the experts you speak of are not aware of all the research contained within the article i linked. I have read some opinions that agreed with your experts but such thinking never seems to have any real research behind it. Would you mind giving me the names of your experts and/or links to their research papers.


Originally posted by psyko45
So this ridiculous argument that states this type of child porn keeps the predator at home is simply innacurate as well as insulting to an educated mind.


Read the above article i linked, which includes sources and many research papers. An educated mind knows that the opinions i have given are not at all insulting or innacurate, they are well researched and documented.


Edited because i can't spell


[edit on 16-2-2010 by ImaginaryReality1984]



posted on Feb, 16 2010 @ 06:06 PM
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reply to post by Nurv47
 

Its not about rape. When most adults that I know look at porn it doesnt make them not want to participate in the activities they just viewed, its just the opposite. Most would love nothing more than to have a scantily clad maid come and clean thier house, or they cant wait to try something or a variation of something they were watching in the porn. And many if not all do seek out to fufill creative fantasy that arrouses them.



posted on Feb, 16 2010 @ 06:12 PM
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reply to post by harvib
 


What I was trying to say is that I really dont believe anyone here condones this stuff were talking about. I feel that there are alot of highly inteligent people here who care about freedom and would do just about anything to protect it. If I didnt believe this I wouldnt be here. I really think that this particular thread is exploring and seeking out the best way to protect those who cannot protect themselves. And most here are doing so in a far better way than I ever could, and all of you should be applauded.



posted on Feb, 16 2010 @ 06:17 PM
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reply to post by argentus
 





I think it was right to jail the person posessing these images. I would hope that there was subsequent counseling, and yes, I am aware of the self-loathing professed by some pedophiles.


Does it matter if this individual was in fact a pedophile? The article states he was a comic book collector.



posted on Feb, 16 2010 @ 06:23 PM
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reply to post by psyko45
 


Fair enough. My apologies for misunderstanding and making false assumptions.



posted on Feb, 16 2010 @ 07:42 PM
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reply to post by harvib
 


No apologies needed. Im not a very good writer subsequently, misunderstandings are something I run into quite frequently.



posted on Feb, 17 2010 @ 02:17 AM
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reply to post by hadriana
 


I am going to go slightly off topic,and out on guess here.You're American?Don't own a passport?Just to clue you in a little bit about Asia,Thailand in particular.Yes,there is child prostitution.Is it common,in your face?No.Does it cater to foreign sex tourists,to a very,very small percentage.I would imagine that far more child prostitution crimes occur in th US,for it's own domestic consumers,than are carried out by child sex tourists in Asia.So if poverty is an excuse here,what is the US's?



posted on Feb, 17 2010 @ 02:41 AM
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Drawings of child porn cannot be considered crime and punished in the same way as drawings of murder are not considered murder, no matter how realistic they are. Crime requires a victim, fictional crime doesnt have one, thats the point. Otherwise we should jail almost all Hollywood filmmakers, in many movies there is at least one serious crime depicted.

Its that simple.





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