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Fomer Yugoslavia region Horizion of New War

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posted on Feb, 13 2010 @ 04:15 PM
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New Balkans Wars on the Horizon]
www.globalresearch.ca...



It is remarkable that recently the authorities of Sarajevo have been urging Russia to contribute to the 'implementation of the Dayton Peace Agreement', the Bosniak Muslim member of the Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Haris Silajdzic, said at the meeting with the Russian special envoy for Kosovo, Alexander Botsan-Kharchenko. And this is a very disturbing sign because Silajdzic has long been known for his extremist views about Republika Srpska. The majority of people in Western Europe cannot but be aware that the Bosnian Serbs remain the only counterbalance to radical pan-Islamic tendencies in Bosnia and Herzegovina. And this it what gives Russia the right to boost its activities in the Balkans.



www.speroforum.com...
rming%27

U.S. Senator Joseph Lieberman today criticized a move by the Bosnian Serb parliament to approve a law on referendums that could be used to call for secession from Bosnia.




Lieberman last week traveled to Bosnia with Senator John McCain to meet with members of Bosnia's tripartite presidency, who called for greater Western involvement in resolving the country's political impasse.



www.reuters.com...




This isnt about evil nasty serbs anymore remember that's how the western media wants us to view them, this about a nation that was once strong and proud and free, people were happy with Yugoslavia, some of my friends are from Yugoslavia and tell me how things are now and how different they were when.

They were with Yugoslavia when there was Yugoslavia people had jobs, schools no problems once or ever, they a sense of pride and love for there nation, i mean who can not forget the 1984 winter games? but now.


thanks to bill clinton and hillary look on what they have done to the region all we are going to see are more wars and after more wars, the Dayton Accords brings no hope to the region, it only divides them if.


Thats what independence is then enjoy destroying yourselves just so you know alot of my freinds and there family members whom are still in bosnia are now saying things were much peacefully and better under Yugoslavia.


Well ATS i wonder what you think about this new war we might see this year.
you can sure thank bill for that.




posted on Feb, 13 2010 @ 05:25 PM
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Very good observations, and sometimes I think the Serbs were made scapegoats for the Yugoslav Wars and overly dehumanized. Now, lets set the record straight, all involved in the conflict committed atrocities. The Muslim militias in Bosnia Herzogovina and Kosovo, the Croatians, and even the Serbs. However, it seems the other combatants have been given a pass as the Serbs are made to be the insane and sadistic aggressors? Why they(Serbs) are the only ones being singled out, only those in the EU, US government, and NATO know the answers? Since the rifles have silenced and to a lesser extent the killings have stopped, still I have a hard time seeing the Serbs as the lone monsters in the mess that ravaged the Balkan Peninsula for over 10 years?

Now, will these disagreements in Bosnia lead to war in the Balkans? If there is war, it wouldn't surprise me in the least. If you ask me, the peace is a shaky one, and it can end with something as simple as a political or ethnic insult. The bitterness of the people runs deep and spans over a thousand years.

That region of the world is a powder keg, and who is going to be the one that lights the match? Personally, if the Serbs want referendums, they should be allowed to have them. Are not the Serbs entitled to self-determination enjoyed by other former Yugoslav states, if their rights are not honored by the current political establishment in Bosnia? If they have an interest in secessionist aspirations, what is the harm in it? They let Kosovo secede from Serbia without batting an eye. So, now the Serbs may want some secession of their own and the international community is in an uproar.

Talk about double standards, when the international community, minus some stalwart nations in opposition; practically set the precedent for secession in the Balkans by remaining silent on Kosovo. Was that handover equitable for Serbia? Many in Serbia and the ethnic Serbs in Kosovo would disagree. It seems the ethnic Albanians have come out on top that agreement, as the Serbs in Kosovo continue to become more vulnerable as the minority.

So, the floodgates are open and secessionist endeavors will only continue as the former Yugoslavia is fractured away down to the nub. The whole region is a geopolitical nightmare and filled with a maze of red tape. Bitter rivalries, age old vendettas, and religious competition among the world's great religions. It is a microcosm of just how divided the world can be and how violent it can become.

The world ought to pay very close attention to the Balkans, because if the PTB have it their way the entire world will be balkanized. Here is a good thread, authored by ATS member Raud, that discusses the causes for the Yugoslav Wars and the often misunderstood involvement by the foreign participants. Please, check it out for a more thorough understanding of how the current impasse was reached and the ones to follow in the future.

www.abovetopsecret.com...






[edit on 14-2-2010 by Jakes51]



posted on Feb, 13 2010 @ 05:57 PM
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I agree, all sides comitted attrocities in the war.....the US sponsored Croatia and Slovenia to cecede and forced Serbias hand to invade the other antions.

But like mentioned above, a blind eye has been turned to the attrocities of Croatia and the Bosnian Muslims and all focus has been towards the Serbs.....no, they are not innocent by far, but why should they bear the brunbt of attrocities comitted by everyone equally?

The KLA, Kosovo Liberation Army was a group of mafia drug dealers that the US sponsored because they wanted a foothold in the Balkans and to put a military base in the area....search up Camp Bonsteel I think its called, correct me if Im wrong but the place if damn huge.

The US and Europe knew of Mujahadeen flying to Bosnia during the war to fight against Serbs and Croats, but a blind eye was turned to that aswell...how hypocritical, its sound like Afhganistan in the 80's all over again.......thats right, this is and was a proxy war against Russia like Afghanistan in the 80's was.

The russians support the serbs, the US supports whoever is against them and like in Afghanistan, the US supported the Mujahadeen, so too they did during the Bosnian War too.

Its all part of a greater plan for a complete EU and the relationship with NATO......they dont want any country within the EU to have any close ties with Russia....funny that huh? But they are willing to accept the creation of a country that is predominantly muslim majority within the heart of Europe, being Bosnia.....a root that will flourish muslim extremism thorughout Europe proper........

The fact the US supports Kosovo's independance and the Albanian criminal government that is in power there stinks to high heaven and will be the cause of conflict in the future around the world by setting a precedant that other nations will take advantage off.


Its like for example Washington declaring to succeed and join a Union supported by Russia......the example is the same in reverse....Kosovo is the cradle bed of Serbia's history and culture, its been ripped away from it forcefully and declared an independant state.....

Same example with Taiwan and China, and Im sure many others around the world....

The Balkans are a bed of hot coals waiting to fire up again.



posted on Feb, 14 2010 @ 03:54 PM
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Originally posted by Melbourne_Militia
I agree, all sides comitted attrocities in the war.....the US sponsored Croatia and Slovenia to cecede and forced Serbias hand to invade the other antions.


Yes, it appears the West only fanned the flames of distaste each side had for the other, by blindly supporting secession of Croatia and Slovenia. They turned a blind-eye toward the ringleaders of such an endeavor. The Croatians had tacit approval of the German intelligence service, the BND, and the support of expatriates of Croatian descent with Utashe leanings in Southern Germany, who lobbied the the German government to support the separatist movement.

Slovenia followed suit with Croatia, by declaring independence on same day in 1991. The Slovenes seized border and customs checkpoints of Yugoslavia to Austria and Italy by force. Yet, international opinion remained silent on such a bold move, which violated territorial integrity of the former Yugoslavia. Then the Slovene militiamen seized all major roads, and thus, cutting off the Yugoslav Army and making them hostage of the new Slovene government. These provocative moves went largely unnoticed by the international community. These instances would be the spark that ignites the inferno, in the years to come. I thought the western powers, the EU and the US, were against armed revolution, but for a revolution of a diplomatic and peaceful character? It seems hypocrisy was rampant then as it is now?



But like mentioned above, a blind eye has been turned to the attrocities of Croatia and the Bosnian Muslims and all focus has been towards the Serbs.....no, they are not innocent by far, but why should they bear the brunbt of attrocities comitted by everyone equally?


Good point, and yes, it seems one particular party is bearing the brunt of the atrocities. The groups mentioned above were vicious in their own right, razing villages and murdering civilians. At least make them own up to their misdeeds as the Serbs are made to take responsibility for theirs. Again, the war was fraught with hypocrisy and an international community who took sides with some nefarious characters without following-up on the facts of whom they supported. Apparently, the West has something against the Serbs, and it maybe their traditional friendship with Russia?



The KLA, Kosovo Liberation Army was a group of mafia drug dealers that the US sponsored because they wanted a foothold in the Balkans and to put a military base in the area....search up Camp Bonsteel I think its called, correct me if Im wrong but the place if damn huge.


This is another hypocrisy by the West. The US is supportive of an alleged narcotics smuggler, advocate of terror, and luminary in the world of organized crime in Eastern Europe, the current Prime Minister of independent Kosovo, Hashim Thaci.



The BND writes: “The key players (including Haliti, Haradinaj, and Thaci) are intimately involved in inter-linkages between politics, business, and organized crime structures in Kosovo.” At the end of the 1990s, the report accuses Thaci of leading a “criminal network operating throughout Kosovo.” At that time he was a co-founder of the Kosovo Liberation Army, and led the Albanian delegation at the 1999 conference at Rambouillet that preceded the Kosovo war.

The BND report also accuses Thaci of contacts to the Czech and Albanian mafias. In addition, it accuses him, together with Haliti, of ordering killings through the professional hit man ‘Afrimi’, who is allegedly responsible for at least 11 contract murders.

Concerning Haradinaj, like Thaci seen as a protégé of the United States, the BND report says he was involved “in the full spectrum of criminal, political and military activities.”

www.welt.de...

So, again, what hypocrisy, that a nation who prides themselves on law and order would support such a character if the allegations are true. I did look up that Camp Bondsteel issue, and it appears the US is willing to make a deal with the devil to open up a permanent foothold in the Balkans? What I find odd, is why the American people remain silent on such violations of their principles by the US government and their tacit support for a bunch of thugs who now run a country? I guess the Super Bowl and American Idol is more important than the hypocrisy of their politicians and government?




The US and Europe knew of Mujahadeen flying to Bosnia during the war to fight against Serbs and Croats, but a blind eye was turned to that aswell...how hypocritical, its sound like Afhganistan in the 80's all over again.......thats right, this is and was a proxy war against Russia like Afghanistan in the 80's was.


Yes, the same group that are allegedly responsible for attacking America, were the ones being allowed to enter Bosnia. Why weren't these foreigners arrested on their immediate discovery by the UN and NATO forces in the region and detained until the end of the conflict? Yet, from what I have read and seen in videos, these foreign combatants were allowed free movement and the means to make an already horrendous mess even worse. Apparently, former President Bill Clinton made some dirty deals in the conflict as well.



Help Turn Bosnia into Militant Islamic Base "'There is no question that the policy of getting arms into Bosnia was of great assistance in allowing the Iranians to dig in and create good relations with the Bosnian government,' a senior CIA officer told Congress in a classified deposition. 'And it is a thing we will live to regret because when they blow up some Americans, as they no doubt will before this ... thing is over, it will be in part because the Iranians were able to have the time and contacts to establish themselves well in Bosnia."' "Iran Gave Bosnia Leader $ ["Iran Gave Bosnia Leader $ 500,000, CIA Alleges: Classified Report Says Izetbegovic Has Been 'Co-Opted,' Contradicting U.S. Public Assertion of Rift," Los Angeles Times, 12/31/96. Ellipses in original. Alija Izetbegovic is the Muslim president of Bosnia.] "'If you read President Izetbegovk's writings, as I have, there is no doubt that he is an Islamic fundamentalist,' said a senior Western diplomat with long experience in the region. . .

www.globalresearch.ca...

Apparently, during the conflict, politicians were playing dirty pool with some seedy characters.



The russians support the serbs, the US supports whoever is against them and like in Afghanistan, the US supported the Mujahadeen, so too they did during the Bosnian War too.

Its all part of a greater plan for a complete EU and the relationship with NATO......they dont want any country within the EU to have any close ties with Russia....funny that huh? But they are willing to accept the creation of a country that is predominantly muslim majority within the heart of Europe, being Bosnia.....a root that will flourish muslim extremism thorughout Europe proper........


It would appear the US, EU, and NATO used the conflict in Yugoslavia as means to prick the finger of the Russians. Their involvement has all the hallmarks of the Afghan/Soviet War.



The fact the US supports Kosovo's independance and the Albanian criminal government that is in power there stinks to high heaven and will be the cause of conflict in the future around the world by setting a precedant that other nations will take advantage off.


Another example would be the Southwestern United States vowing independence or unification with Mexico. Since they were part of Mexico at one time. I think the US government would be very upset about that? However, when Serbia opposes the illegal independence of one of their states, they are ridiculed and silenced by the West. It is all one big double standard. The Yugoslav War was political dirty pool on a grand scale.

[edit on 14-2-2010 by Jakes51]



posted on Feb, 14 2010 @ 08:24 PM
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Originally posted by Jakes51
The Slovenes seized border and customs checkpoints of Yugoslavia to Austria and Italy by force. Yet, international opinion remained silent on such a bold move, which violated territorial integrity of the former Yugoslavia. Then the Slovene militiamen seized all major roads, and thus, cutting off the Yugoslav Army and making them hostage of the new Slovene government. These provocative moves went largely unnoticed by the international community. These instances would be the spark that ignited the inferno, in the years to come. I thought the western powers, the EU and the US, were against armed revolution, but for a revolution of a diplomatic and peaceful character? It seems hypocrisy was rampant then as it is now?


Jakes51 in your post there are many "errors". Ill just comment one part of your fabrication of history.

Slovene borders were already controled by Slovenian. They changed only uniforms and border signs replaced with "Slovenia".

JNA (Yugoslav People's Army) had a plan to stop independence. Additional army was sent from Croatia with plan to take over border posts. Their attack forces were mostly tanks and armored vehicles. On their way to borders they were stoped and blocked by TO (Slovene Territorial Defence) and Slovene police. At that point they were asked to lay down their arms.

The 10 day war ended with Brioni Accord. Slovenian were recognised as sovereign on their territory. Last JNA soldiers left Slovenia peacefully 3.5 months later.

[edit on 14-2-2010 by GHSCX]



posted on Feb, 14 2010 @ 08:34 PM
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Turkey, Serbia, Bosnia and Herzegovina hold trilateral talks


Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoğlu (L), Bosnian Foreign Minister Sven Alkalaj and Serbian Foreign Minister Vuk Jeremic (R) had a trilateral meeting in Sarajevo on Monday. Sarajevo hosted a third trilateral meeting between the foreign ministers of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Serbia and Turkey on Monday. The ministers decided on the venue of their next gathering and vowed to meet more regularly from now on.



Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoğlu arrived in Sarajevo on Sunday evening in order to attend a ministers’ meeting of the Alliance of Civilizations’ Regional Strategy for Southeast Europe, which was held on Sunday and Monday. Davutoğlu used the occasion to hold a trilateral meeting with Serbian Foreign Minister Vuk Jeremic and his Bosnian counterpart, Sven Alkalaj.

Speaking to reporters along with his Bosnian and Serbian counterparts following the meeting, Davutoğlu expressed satisfaction over their meeting, underlining Serbia’s and Turkey’s joint support for maintenance of the national unity of Bosnia and Herzegovina. He also announced that he would gather with his two counterparts in Belgrade for the next trilateral meeting.

In October, on the sidelines of a ministerial-level meeting of the South East European Cooperation Process (SEECP), the chairmanship-in-office of which is held by Turkey, Davutoğlu brought together Jeremic and Alkalaj for the first of such trilateral meetings. In November, the three held the second such trilateral meeting in İstanbul.

For his part, speaking following the meeting in Sarajevo, Alkalaj said the cooperation among the three countries would continue, while Jeremic said they have planned to hold monthly meetings on a regular basis. Underlining the three actors’ commitment to preservation of territorial integrity of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Jeremic also noted his country’s support for Bosnia and Herzegovina’s bid to become a member of international organizations such as the European Union.

While in Sarajevo, Davutoğlu held separate talks with three members of the Bosnia and Herzegovina Presidency, which rotates every eight months among three members -- Bosniak, Serbian and Croatian.

During talks with Croatian Zeljko Komsic, Bosniak (Bosnian Muslim) Haris Silajdzic and Serbian Nebojsa Radmanovic, Davutoğlu gave the same message to the leaders, urging reconciliation amongst each other.

Davutoğlu, meanwhile, in a speech delivered at the meeting of the Alliance of Civilizations’ Regional Strategy for Southeast Europe, touched upon the crisis over Switzerland’s minaret ban.

In late October, Swiss voters approved a constitutional ban on minarets in a referendum which was condemned by human rights defenders and Muslim groups in Switzerland and abroad, including in Turkey.

Davutoğlu said he hoped this “mistake” would be repaired by Switzerland, as he, as a non-smoker, used a Bosniak proverb which says, “No coffee without a cigarette, no mosque without a minaret.”

15 December 2009, Tuesday

KERIM BALCI SARAJEVO




p.s mods , i plea ignorance and stand as charged ,


[edit on 14-2-2010 by 23432]

[edit on 14-2-2010 by 23432]



posted on Feb, 14 2010 @ 09:14 PM
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I didn't even have to read the entire post to hit "reply" to say that I agree.

The EU vs. the Slavic/former USSR states are to be watched -- most in the US don't realize it yet, however.

I was in Chisinau, Moldova just a few months after the riots of the election. The youth are sold on EU membership -- but that means the corporate buy out of the farms that make up the agriculture-based country.

Eastern Europe is where to watch -- it's the next middle east.

Good thread sir, star...flag too.

[edit on 14-2-2010 by MystikMushroom]



posted on Feb, 14 2010 @ 09:37 PM
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reply to post by GHSCX
 


How is what I wrote a fabrication of history? They did seize border posts of a legitimate government entity at the time, did they not? You just mentioned that in your reply. Chances are there may have been a Croatian element in the JNA army at the time like other ethnic groups from other Yugoslavian republics, because Yugoslavia was still unified minus the secessionist activities of the Slovenes.



Of the soldiers of the 5th Military District, which was in action in Slovenia, in 1990 30% were Albanians, 20% Croats, 10% Bosnian Muslims, 15 to 20% Serbs and Montenegrins, and 8% Slovenes.Meier, Viktor. Yugoslavia â€" A History of its Demise. Routledge, London, 1999

en.allexperts.com...

Later, other secessionist activities was adopted by the Croatians. When someone seizes a border post in another country it is a revolutionary act. In essence it is usurping the authority of another government by force. There were no political negotiations to reclaim the border posts by the then burgeoning independent Slovenian government. In other words, they just took them. That alone could be considered an act of war, even if there was no violence, as was the case with Slovenian incident.

The Slovenes seized positions around JNA barracks and in essence cutting them off, in an encirclement maneuver. The concept of militias were also being utilized as I mentioned in my earlier post.



The Slovenian Territorial Defence also took up position around JNA barracks in various locations, effectively besieging them, and launched a series of attacks on JNA forces across Slovenia.

en.wikipedia.org...



he Slovenian government were also in the process of setting up a secret alternative command structure, known as the Manoeuvre Structures of National Protection (Manevrska struktura narodne zašèite, or MSNZ). This was an existing but antiquated institution, unique to Slovenia, which was intended to enable the republic to form an ad hoc defence structure, pretty much the same as a Home Guard.

www.ljubljana-life.com...



On the morning of 26 June, units of the Yugoslav People's Army's 13th Corps left their barracks in Rijeka, Croatia to move towards Slovenia's borders with Italy. The move immediately led to a strong reaction from local Slovenes, who organised spontaneous barricades and demonstrations against the JNA's actions. There was, as yet, no fighting, and both sides appeared to have an unofficial policy of not being the first to open fire.

en.allexperts.com...

Apparently, the Federal Authorities in Belgrade were open for further talks and negotiations at the time to peacefully re-integrate Slovenia. Yet, they continued to take up arms against the Federal Army, and which infuriated the military leadership of Yugoslavian Army by hindering their plans for an invasion.



n the meantime, the JNA's leadership sought permission to change the tempo of its operations. Defence Minister Veljko Kadijević informed the Yugoslav cabinet that the JNA's first plan - a limited operation to secure Slovenia's border crossings had failed, and that it was time to put into operation the backup plan of a full-scale invasion and imposition of military rule in Slovenia. However, the cabinet — headed at the time by Serbia's Borisav Jović — refused to authorise such an operation. The JNA Chief of Staff, General Blagoje Adzić, was furious and publicly denounced "the federal organs [which] continually hampered us, demanding negotiations while they [the Slovenians] were attacking us with all means."

en.wikipedia.org...-7

Again, how is what I mentioned in my previous post a fabrication? I am only showing the facts that I have seen thus far. Hopefully, the sources above can verify further what I was trying to get across. Thanks for the reply.



[edit on 14-2-2010 by Jakes51]



posted on Feb, 15 2010 @ 09:28 AM
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what a load of BS

I suggest you do your homework better


War in Yugoslavia

and suggest you read thorugh all the links...
esspecially Vukovar and Srebrenica

yes there were crimes on all sides,but a bigger picture of it all deems to be better analysed
there is difference between case war crimes and organised JNA(which supported Chetnics paramilitary) war crimes

the logical end mathematics is:

JNA was an army of Yugoslavia commanded from Belgrade-Serbia,
Yugoslavia was a federation of republics with legal rights to selfproclamation,
so called "civil" war of Yugoslavia with serbian paratroops and JNA was all waged on Croatian and Bosnian territory,
so called serbian "states" were on Croatian and Bosnian territory ,

no war was being waged on serbian-montenegran territory,
no para-states were organised on serbian-montenegran territory

at the end:
it all concluded with a Republic of Srpska territorial entity in Bosnia and Herzegovina won by aggression and ethnic cleansing, which is shamefull for all of civilisation,end of 20ieth century to get off with aggressional war accumulation of territory in middle of Europe

entity which today wants to force a refferendum for total independence
end mathematics:
Serbs as a nation getting a second state in Europe by war done 15 years ago...

for refference read:
Great Serbia ideology




it would be like for ex.,mexicans of Texas would want their state within Texas,Mexican gov. supporting their actions with mexican millitary against USA,they somehow win territory,cleanse 80% of non mexican from that territory, and declare their "state",
after year or two of war,not being able to solve the crisis, for the sake of peace, UN allows them a certain "independant state" within Texas-USA
and after 10 years they "rightfully" declare a refferendum for independance
and get off with a new State---piece of Texas-USA...
and there is nothing you can do about it...

what would you think of their intentions?


so please do your homework a bit better before relying on your balkan friends stance of it all...



p.s. no ethnic hatered or similar meant by exampling mexicans,used just for examplatory comparative reasons



posted on Feb, 15 2010 @ 03:21 PM
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reply to post by darkraver
 



How is what I mentioned about the start of the Yugoslav War a load of BS? I am privy to the same facts as you and they are facts, right? Now, you bring up the siege of Vukovar and Srebrenica, and I am very aware of how the Serbs handled those situations. It was absolutely appalling and could be deemed ethnic cleansing and barbarity unseen by world since Adolf Hitler and his Nazi machine. However, the point of the discussion was only about the secession of Slovenia, not any further escalation of the war which came later.

Back to the Battle of Vukover, it was a heavy handed assault by the Serbs who controlled the Federal apparatus of the former Yugoslavia at the time. It was a siege which lasted 87 days and which most of the city was decimated as well as the ethnic Croatian population. Under a barrage of heavy artillery and mortar attacks. Hospitals were even destroyed which is considered a war crime. Plus, the sadistic paramilitaries spearheaded assaults killing civilians along the way while reaching their objectives.



Many appear to have been summarily executed by Serbian paramilitaries; journalists visiting the town immediately after its fall reported seeing the streets strewn with bodies in civilian clothes. BBC television reporters recorded Serbian paramilitaries chanting:[11]
“ Slobodane, Slobodane, šalji nam salate, biće mesa, biće mesa, klaćemo Hrvate! ("Slobodan [Milošević], Slobodan, send us some salad, [for] there will be meat, there will be meat, we will slaughter Croats"

en.wikipedia.org...-Tanner-10

Apparently, Serb President, Slobodan Milosevic new of the dastardly crimes his armed thugs were willing to commit. If he wasn't, those slogans uncovered by the BBC made him aware. He let the popularity and the increase of power get to his head. Plus, other authorities in the Yugoslav government were weak and remained silent on the clear abuse of power by Milosevic.

So, what may have started as an honest attempt to stem the tide of secession only turned into a race war being waged by a bunch of nationalistic maniacs. However, put the shoe on the other foot and the Croatians resorted to the same tactics during the Second World War with their alliance with Nazi Germany against the Serb population. History repeats itself. Apparently, a large bulk of the Serbian population was even against the military strike on Vukovar.



A near-mutiny broke out in some reservist units, and mass demonstrations against the war were held in the Serbian towns of Valjevo, Čačak and Kragujevac. In one famous incident, a tank driver named Vladimir Živković drove his tank all the way from the front line at Vukovar to the federal parliament in Belgrade. Many Serbs simply did not identify with the Croatian Serb cause and were unwilling to see their lives, or those of their children, sacrificed at Vukovar.[16] Although the great majority of JNA casualties were Serbian, Serbia itself was never formally at war.

en.wikipedia.org...-Tanner-10

So, I guess to put it simply, there are many sides of the conflict, with just as many perception, as their are many ethnic groups living side by side in what was the former Yugoslavia. War is hell! However, atrocities are atrocities no matter what government may or may not sanction them. If mass matter is being conducted against a civilian population either threw relentless bombings, paramilitary assaults, or even a professional army, it is still an atrocity. The Croats, Bosnians, and the Kosovan Albanians are alll as guilty as the Serbs. So, lets look at the bloody conflict for what it really was. It was not a Civil War, but a race war. It was the systematic assault against all ethnic groups involved by the each every nationality involved. Every combatant has blood and murder on their hands.

For example, here is an alleged crime of revenge and an atrocity by Croatian General Ante Gotovina which was indicted for by the Hague and now in custody.



Gotovina, 50, was one of the three most-wanted fugitives sought by the court. He was indicted in July 2001 on charges of overseeing the killings of at least 150 ethnic Serbs and the forced expulsion of tens of thousands of others near the end of Croatia's 1991-95 civil war. Troops under his command are accused of poisoning wells, stealing livestock and using violence and intimidation to evict Serbs from their homes.

www.washingtonpost.com...

Here are some more atrocities by the Croatians as the retook Krajina. These weren't assaults against the paramilitaries or elements of the Army, but to civilians who most likely thrown into the conflict for nothing more than being in the wrong place at the right time. Most of these same Serbs had lived with the Croatians side by side, while many intermarried with the each other.



Months after the fall of Serbian Krajina, Croatian troops continue their rampage through the region. A three day offensive at the beginning of August drove out virtually the entire population of 250,000 Serbs. Only a few thousand elderly Serbs remained behind.

Croatian special police units, operating under the Ministry of Internal Affairs, are systematically looting abandoned Serbian villages. Everything of value—cars, stereos, televisions, furniture, farm animals—is plundered. The homes are then set afire. The arson continues unabated, and a European Union report says that 73 percent of Serbian homes have been destroyed. Troops of the Croatian army are also responsible, and often write the initials "NDH" on walls of burnt out Serb buildings. "NDH" signifies the Independent State of Croatia—the pro-Nazi puppet state in World War II. The use of these initials is popular among neo-Nazi Croatian troops.

The few remaining Serbs are subjected to terror and murder. A confidential European Union report says, "Evidence of atrocities, an average of six corpses per day, continues to emerge. The corpses, some fresh, some decomposed, are mainly of old men. Many have been shot in the back of the head or had throats slit, others have been mutilated …. Serb lands continue to be torched and looted."

www.hartford-hwp.com...

This is just in reference to the Croat and Serb War, but I hope see what I am trying to get across. If look further into the conflicts in Bosnia and Kosovo, you will see that atrocities were committed by the others involved as well as the Serbs. So personally, I feel we should cut the semantics on who killed more than the other, and look at it in a way were killing civilians is wrong no matter if you are the aggressor or the defender. Every government, politician, militia, paramilitary, and foreign fighters have blood on their hands no matter what flag they parade through the streets.

I am trying to look at the information available with an objective eye. From what I have seen it appears the Serb atrocities are all over the place, while atrocities of the other combatants are seemingly sequestered and lessened. So, if you think I was trying to show a one-side view on the conflict you are wrong. I was only trying to highlight the hypocrisy that was the Yugoslav War. All sides were wrong, and blind nationalism ruled the day followed by religious extremism.


[edit on 15-2-2010 by Jakes51]



posted on Feb, 15 2010 @ 06:39 PM
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Originally posted by Jakes51
How is what I wrote a fabrication of history?




Slovenia followed suit with Croatia, by declaring independence on same day in 1991. The Slovenes seized border and customs checkpoints of Yugoslavia to Austria and Italy by force. Yet, international opinion remained silent on such a bold move, which violated territorial integrity of the former Yugoslavia. Then the Slovene militiamen seized all major roads, and thus, cutting off the Yugoslav Army and making them hostage of the new Slovene government. These provocative moves went largely unnoticed by the international community. These instances would be the spark that ignites the inferno, in the years to come. I thought the western powers, the EU and the US, were against armed revolution, but for a revolution of a diplomatic and peaceful character? It seems hypocrisy was rampant then as it is now?


Slovenia (and other republics in Yugoslavia) had a legal right to become independent. No force was needed on customs checkpoints or else. People just changed uniforms. Slovene army and police force blocked main roads to borders only after they were attacked by JNA. There were no hostages. Only army that was attacking which surrendered in few days. Only ranking officers wanted to fight. General JNA army grunts didnt want. Quite a few of them didnt even know what is going on. They just wanted to go home.

So Jakes51 u see the difference?


Here is a short history:

Yugoslavia was a federation of republics and each republic had their own goverment

In 1974, a new federal constitution was ratified that gave more autonomy to the individual republics. One of the provisions of the new constitution was that each republic officially had the option to declare independence from the federation.

In March 1989, the crisis in Yugoslavia deepened after the adoption of certain amendments to the Serbian constitution which allowed the Serbian republic's government to re-assert effective power over the autonomous provinces of Kosovo and Vojvodina. The Serb government claimed that the previous situation had been unjust in allowing these provinces to be involved in the administration of Serbia Central whilst Serbia Central had no control over what happened in these two autonomous provinces. Serbia, under president Slobodan Milošević, thus gained control over three out of eight votes in the Yugoslav presidency. With additional votes from Montenegro and, occasionally, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Serbia was now even able to influence heavily any decision of the federal government. This situation led to objections in other republics and to calls for a reform of the Yugoslav Federation.

At the 14th Extraordinary Congress of the League of Communists of Yugoslavia, on 20 January 1990, the delegations of the republics could not agree on the main issues in the Yugoslav federation. As a result, the Slovenian and Croatian delegates left the Congress. The Slovenian delegation, headed by Milan Kučan, demanded democratic changes and a looser federation, while the Serbian delegation, headed by Milošević, opposed this point-blank. This is considered the beginning of the end of Yugoslavia.

Shortly after, Slovenia and Croatia entered into the process towards independence. The first free elections were scheduled in Croatia and Slovenia. Defying the politicians in Belgrade, Slovenia embraced democracy and opened its society in the cultural, civic, and economic spheres to a degree almost unprecedented in the communist world.

On December 23, 1990, 88% of Slovenia's population voted for independence in a plebiscite, and on June 25, 1991, the Republic of Slovenia declared its independence. On June 26, 1991 Croatia and Slovenia recognized each other as independent states.

A 10-day war with Yugoslavia followed (June 27, 1991 - July 6, 1991). The Yugoslav People's Army (JNA) forces withdrew after Slovenia demonstrated stiff resistance.



posted on Feb, 15 2010 @ 08:12 PM
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reply to post by GHSCX
 


Very well put, and now it all makes sense. Perhaps, I got my facts a little jumbled and my interpretation wrong? With Slovenes changing sides, seizing custom posts, and commandeering border crossings, I would see it as a defiant act from an outlaw republic to usurp federal authority as is the case in most civil wars. Therefore, in my humble opinion, it still seems dangerously close to treason. Furthermore, as you point the people voted unanimously to secede and no army or government can stop the will of the people.

They were lucky the Serb held governments didn't respond with a heavy hand as they did with other break-away republics. However, if a compromise couldn't be reached about equal autonomy from all member republics as is specified in the 1974 constitution, then they have all the right to leave the federation.

Rather than a balance of power as Tito ensured was in place at all times, somehow through the electoral process, the ethnic Serbs gained a majority in the Federal Government, and thus, giving them an insurmountable voting block against other republics of different ethnic groups. Therefore, the potential for an abuse of power was rife.

Apparently, that is exactly what the governments of Croatia and Slovenia saw when Slovene chief delegate, Milan Kucan, tried to loosen the hold enjoyed by the Serbian majority on the Federal Government of Yugoslavia. In essence, if the Serbs weren't honest brokers of government, it would have made the other republics hostage to Serbian influence who then had control of the fourth largest army in Europe. Thank goodness what happened in the other republics didn't happen in Slovenia. The situation has become a lot more clearer to me now on what happened. Thanks again for taking the time to try and clear things up for me.



posted on Feb, 18 2010 @ 11:22 AM
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Originally posted by Jakes51
reply to post by darkraver
 




For example, here is an alleged crime of revenge and an atrocity by Croatian General Ante Gotovina which was indicted for by the Hague and now in custody.



Gotovina, 50, was one of the three most-wanted fugitives sought by the court. He was indicted in July 2001 on charges of overseeing the killings of at least 150 ethnic Serbs and the forced expulsion of tens of thousands of others near the end of Croatia's 1991-95 civil war. Troops under his command are accused of poisoning wells, stealing livestock and using violence and intimidation to evict Serbs from their homes.

www.washingtonpost.com...



for refference to this study:
Gotovina trial watch







Here are some more atrocities by the Croatians as the retook Krajina. These weren't assaults against the paramilitaries or elements of the Army, but to civilians who most likely thrown into the conflict for nothing more than being in the wrong place at the right time. Most of these same Serbs had lived with the Croatians side by side, while many intermarried with the each other.



Months after the fall of Serbian Krajina, Croatian troops continue their rampage through the region. A three day offensive at the beginning of August drove out virtually the entire population of 250,000 Serbs. Only a few thousand elderly Serbs remained behind.

Croatian special police units, operating under the Ministry of Internal Affairs, are systematically looting abandoned Serbian villages. Everything of value—cars, stereos, televisions, furniture, farm animals—is plundered. The homes are then set afire. The arson continues unabated, and a European Union report says that 73 percent of Serbian homes have been destroyed. Troops of the Croatian army are also responsible, and often write the initials "NDH" on walls of burnt out Serb buildings. "NDH" signifies the Independent State of Croatia—the pro-Nazi puppet state in World War II. The use of these initials is popular among neo-Nazi Croatian troops.

The few remaining Serbs are subjected to terror and murder. A confidential European Union report says, "Evidence of atrocities, an average of six corpses per day, continues to emerge. The corpses, some fresh, some decomposed, are mainly of old men. Many have been shot in the back of the head or had throats slit, others have been mutilated …. Serb lands continue to be torched and looted."

www.hartford-hwp.com...




[edit on 15-2-2010 by Jakes51]



there,my lad,you have stumbled upon a great piece of war-time serb propaganda...

watch closely the name of the posting group
Sender: Activists Mailing List

the name of the writer:
Gregory Stefanovich...as in Stefanović...a common serbian surname


for the underlined non objectivity reffer to the above Gotovina Trial Watch



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