The conspiracy behind the call for a UK gun ban

Guns in the UK seem to be one of those topics that will always cause an argument at any dinner party??

The total ban of public gun ownership is an issue that a lot of people will argue for very passionately although they will often admit they have never seen, used or owned a real firearm.

“I don’t need to have used one to know that the kill people”
“Guns, by their very design, are meant to take life”
“Gun crime is the scourge of British society and the only way to stop it is a complete ban”

Are some of the impassioned arguments i hear, and im sure some of you agree with these points...

Well, allow me to tell you my experiences and to answer these points...

I was a bit of rebel in my younger days... I was raised in London in a fairly tough neighbourhood during the 80’s and 90’s... i was a DJ in London in the 90’s and have experienced many elements of the criminal underworld from drug dealing to illegal gun ownership. I have been present when a firearm has been discharged in a packed club and i am fully aware of the panic and destruction they cause when used illegally!

As a teenager in a rough area THE most important thing is RESPECT!!! Not giving it... but receiving it!!! You cannot afford to be seen as weak or people will descend on you like a pack of wolfs... and, to be honest, the gun is the ultimate way of enforcing respect...
Now before i continue i would like to make this clear, although i hung around with some rough characters i was never personally involved in drug dealing and i never owned an illegal gun... luckily for me i was pretty good with my fist’s and my DJing helped me to gain a different kind of respect.

Most of the kids that i hung around with did not have a father at home, they did not do well at school and lacked discipline in the home. For many it seemed that the whole world was against them and therefore they would take what they could when they could; without any feeling of remorse.

I am not making excuses for their criminal behaviour... what some of them did i found deplorable, but these are the facts!!!

I’ve seen a loaded gun, with the safety off, being waved around in a crowded room of grinning teenagers while the gun owner boasts of what he is going to do with it.

Experiencing this element of society and this mentality is probably the most danger i have ever been in... Danger from the law... danger for my life...

Would a total ban on guns have stopped this?? Would it have prevented them from obtaining illegal firearms?? Or from causing harm to others??

Of course not...

These are not the sort of people who fill in a licence form and invite the police around to check out the security of their Gun cabinet!!!

These people obtained their weapons through the criminal underworld... and from what I’ve been told, most of these weapons are either illegally imported or stolen from Army barracks by corrupt members of the services!

Even with a TOTAL ban on guns, in the UK, criminals will still get hold of guns!! And even if by some miraculous reason you prevented criminals from obtaining firearms (which you can’t) they would still murder... using knives, petrol bombs or even their bare hands.

To prevent crime we cannot simply ban the tools of the criminals (especially when those tools have completely legitimate uses)
We have to look at the causes of crime, the social aspect of it. We also need to look at the punishments for crime... Do you really think that the average street criminal is devastated at having to spend 6 month with his friends in an “open” prison with pool tables and TV??

But this is a different issue for a different thread...

Now allow me to explain the next part of my life...
Eventually i grow up, and distanced myself from the criminal element of society. Got a Job, married, kids etc...

Just over a year ago an old friend of mine asked if i wanted to join him for a shoot one day! He explained that he had joined a clay shooting club and been going regular... so... curious, i went along.

I must say i was deeply impressed by how they run the club... You have to have an induction course which covers the safety, morals, law, and technical aspect of firearms before you are even allowed near a gun. I was also checked to see that i had no serious criminal convictions!

During a shoot we are always accompanied by a safety officer and a referee... All shoot are controlled to the highest of standards and the disciplines are instilled in us so that we gain a deeper respect of the firearm and sport.
There are kids as young as ten who are members... and these kids are ALWAYs closely supervised with 121 tutoring. Every child who i have seen shoot has always been extremely cautious and level headed about what they are doing. This has nothing to do with their background, as we have had kids from all backgrounds, but everything to do with the education about firearms they are given and the pride in their club which we aim to instil in them.

Recently on the news another teenager was murdered... tragic loss of a 14 year old school boy! Shot over i minor dispute regarding respect... A group of mothers from the estate had got together and organised a peace march... along with candles they marched through the local estates with placards reading “stop the violence, Ban the Gun” I remember one of the mothers being interviewed and saying... “i know the mother of the boy who had the gun, i don’t understand it, she was very anti gun and didn’t even let him play with guns when he was little”
Well of course!!! There is NOTHING wrong with a young boy wanting to play with toy guns!!! Seriously... its not guns that are the problem as long as the children playing with them have a clear sense of right and wrong... the danger comes when Children are raised in a society that has removed the old fashioned hero and replaced it with the “anti-hero” Film is now littered with these... the bad guys you want to win! But again... this is probably a whole new topic...

Now, while a have the deepest of simplify towards this communities loss, and i also respect their views, i also believe that their views are nothing more than uneducated kneejerk reactions that are being exploited by politicians as a quick fix to the issue of youth crime. Stopping kids playing with toy guns and a ban of guns does NOT work.

TBC...

I have to ask this question...
Would you rather your sons or daughters first experience of a firearm be at a legal, controlled gun club where they are taught the disciplines of safe firearm usage...
Or would you prefer it to be in the bedroom of a local criminal who is waving it around for bravado??

I would prefer my children to have the controlled option, so that if they ever do experience the second option, they would be educated enough to fully understand the dangers and leave!!!

OK... so where is the conspiracy in this rather long post i hear you ask??

I believe the conspiracy is, like i explained earlier, the politicians advocating the complete banning of guns because it is the will of the uneducated (in the matter of gun sports) masses. It is the cheaper option for the politician... far cheaper than education and setting up a full investigation into the negative impacts of certain social factors (such as absent fathers, negative role models etc) Like the medieval inquisitors they just shout “Burn em” and everyone in the village grabs their pitchforks and joins in!
And i also believe that they (the politicians) DO realise that a total gun ban will NOT stop gun crime... but i also think that they also believe it is a way to weaken the population further... Empowering the criminals and weakening the majority.

Wow... after all this waffle I’m probably gonna get zero responses LOL

wait...hold on here...


Theres guns in the UK? I seen...1. a antique shotgun hung over the fireplace of my neighbor. I also know that farmers have some shotguns to ward off wild animals (foxes and such)...but the only guns I ever heard of when I lived there was basically by the criminals..

hell, even the standard cops didnt have guns...they had a stern look and clubs...both being relatively effective frankly.

"STOP,...or I will be very cross with you!" (and curiously, most stop...brits..gotta love the general respect of the system)

In the uk gun argument, man, thats been done a few times here in the last few years i have been a member...

in short, Guns should be banned unless their is an actual legit puropse for them like land management (games keepers / farmers ) and higher level law enfrcement (i know.... but someone needs a weapon that can beat a knife)

for leisure... im split, i do see it as almost culture, but i also think .... well... lets just say im split on that bit.

if i wasnt feeling so rough today i woudl make a massive post, but ... well, im rough... ill add to this topic again once ive woke up abit

reply to post by SaturnFX


LOL

Yeah we have gun owners in Britain... although generally speaking we are very reserved about it... its not something that would be declared in a general conversation.

Sometime though i feel that people are extremely passionate about the subject without having a clear understanding of the subject... all they can go on is what the read in the papers or see on TV. I would like to see some perspective brought to this argument!

reply to post by boaby_phet

In the uk gun argument, man, thats been done a few times here in the last few years i have been a member...

in short, Guns should be banned unless their is an actual legit puropse for them like land management (games keepers / farmers ) and higher level law enfrcement (i know.... but someone needs a weapon that can beat a knife)

for leisure... im split, i do see it as almost culture, but i also think .... well... lets just say im split on that bit.

if i wasnt feeling so rough today i woudl make a massive post, but ... well, im rough... ill add to this topic again once ive woke up abit

Yeah, i know it’s been done a few times before but i wanted to give it my perspective, as someone who uses firearms for sport/leisure, as opposed to the usual arguments about Survivalists and NWO takeovers

Hope you feel better soon m8 and look forward to your response

Being a yank looking at british philosophy about guns, I was first opposed to it, but, it did seem fairly effective...violent deaths involving guns...hell, violent deaths in general was signifiantly less percentwise than across the pond. (of course burglery was through the roof, but meh...give and take, would rather be burgled than shot overall)

And the fact that it was a two way street (average citizen and cop) to the no gun standard did seem fair.

I think controlled gun ranges and such for the simple sport should be protected...and of course logical land managment issue.

Hmm, whats the law on crossbows and other non-gunpowder based projectiles? (sorry, european history fan...would be sweet if everyone simply went back to crossbows and swords)

The funny thing is the clueless British public almost desire to be nannyed and smothered with silly regulation and pointless rules.

If a psycho wants a firearm bad enough they'll just go to Croatia or the former Eastern Bloc lands for a pistol and ammo.

In france a guy goes on a rampage killing 8 councillers then later dies in 'mysterious' circumstances while being interviewed.

news.bbc.co.uk...

No action taken against lawful gun owners in France though!

Still allowed full-bore semi-autos and none of the bs regs, rules and hoops UK gun owners have to go through.

I'm in a gun club and the red-tape and paperwork is ludicrous. If you want to sell a firearm you cannot easily do so without sourcing a shrinking number of firearms dealers. All weapons are imported (apart from shotguns?) so once they arrived there's only customisation you can get done.
Nor can you sell it to another firearm owner without having to pay for the privilege of transfer AND if they are 'allowed' by the police to own that weapon.
You see the UK gun owner is at the whims of a local firearms cop who is deliberately chosen to be anti-gun ownership.
They may already own a 5.56mm rifle and if you want to sell your rifle to them the firearms cop in the police station can turn around and refuse the transfer as it's not a valid reason (in their eyes) to own more than one type of calibre weapon (usually).

If person wants to even own one they must first pay, install and pray that an inspecting copper says it is 'approved' or not for storing guns in! As they are not at liberty to grant firearms licenses as a rule.

So potentially you could be paying for £200 worth of gun cabinet all for nothing. I've seen people eager to join the gun club I'm in but sheepishly walk away having been told they've got to stump up the money on the whim of a cops decision made for them.

After this hurdle is leaped you then must give a reason. Since 1968 having a gun for self-defense has been made illegal and so it's only as a sporting, collecting or vermin-hunting weapon.

After 1987 and the insanity of some loser in Hungerford (using a government sourced firearm!) saw any chance of a UK gun owners alliance or the Swiss system of gun ownership destroyed.
Anyone with a semi-auto full-bore of above .22 calibre was forced to hand them in or be arrested.
The British public weren't asked.

Before Hamilton went on the rampage the firearms rules in the UK were quite liberal indeed. The police were fairly laissez faire as long as everyone was legit and not taking the pss.

Then came the very questionable circumstances around the Dunblaine shootings which have been sealed up for a 100 years. If that doesn't tell you something's amiss then nothing will.

After that wet lettuce Major castrated the gun owners by making them feel like criminals, banning hand-guns (owned typically by urban citizens).
The British public weren't asked.

With shot introducing a database system which basically means UK gun owners are red-flagged.



Here's the Swiss who have hardly any crime at all, guess what? They have some of the most liberal gun rights in the world (second only to the US):



The Obama draft gun ban bill has been drafted using the 1986-7 and 1996-7 British gun bans as a template. Albeit with trigger locks and all sorts of extra baggage.

Use your rights or loose them, cause that's what happened in the UK. No-one kicked up a fuss and the rest was history.

So in a nutshell the Brits have been over-regulated and forced out of owning firearms unless they have plenty of cash and can afford to run through hoops, drive to far-off ranges (which are in the middle of nowhere usually).

The wierd thing is gun ownership prior to WW1 was on a par with the USA, but funnily enough after WW1 there were gun bans (fully auto), then after WW2 there were stringent licensing regs. Baby steps towards what we have today.

This is an interesting links on gun rights and the controls that have taken them away:

www.serendipity.li...

UK 'gun' owners house raided, gun owner attacked and violently arrested:

www.ncc-1776.org...

Forum entry on Info wars reference this:

forum.prisonplanet.com...

"Gun control?" In order to outlaw guns, you must first outlaw knowledge of guns. To outlaw knowledge of guns, you must outlaw knowledge itself.
—"Armies of Chaos", by L. Neil Smith

[edit on 12-2-2010 by WatchRider]

[edit on 12-2-2010 by WatchRider]

Watchrider.
I think you did a very good break down of the situation here, but could I just add a few things?

You did not mention the 1926 Firearms act which started the rot for private ownership. As I understand it the UK governments of the time were worried sick about the recent revolutions in Russia and Germany, and with the situation on their doorstep in Ireland. Ever since then it has been harder to shoot, and the old picture of someone enjoying their sport has changed to that of some nutter with a gun, and the government are just helping it along.

I used to shoot pistol before the ban, and up till then everyone I knew used to think that the sport would last forever, and hardly any of them were in the shooting organisations.

Even when the ban was put foward, there was almost no outcry from the top associations in the country. What happened to them?

[edit on 12-2-2010 by Greenman1]

Couple of interesting things related to this...

from 2001...

Handgun crime 'up' despite ban

and from 2007...

Why boys should be allowed to play with toy guns

Well, I think gun ownership (at least in the states) serves the same concept of nuclear weapons. Just because you have them doesn't mean you're gonna use them, but they sure are nice for keeping people honest!

You see, gun banning is a funny thing. Even if firearms are banned, if someone wants a gun, they can get one. Black market gun running will always be available no matter what the laws are. Bad guys will always have guns, and since the average citizen can't, criminals are pretty well able to do whatever they want.

I live in Wyoming. Roughly 85% of the population here has a firearm or two in their house. You know what the violent crime rate in Wyoming is? Next to nothing. I'm not just talking about handguns either, I'm talking assault rifles, handguns, shotguns, long range rifles (even the .50 cal is legal). Would you rob a house with a possible arsenal inside just waiting to be fired in your direction?

The National Academy of Sciences issued a 328-page report based on 253 journal articles, 99 books, 43 government publications, a survey of 80 different gun-control laws and some of its own independent study. In short, the panel could find no link between restrictions on gun ownership and lower rates of crime, firearms violence or even accidents with guns.

Meanwhile, a study released by the Justice Department suggesting background checks at gun shows would do little to keep firearms out of the hands of criminals.

The study noted the number of criminals who obtained guns from retail outlets was dwarfed by the number of those who picked up their arms through means other than legal purchases. The report was the result of interviews with more than 18,000 state and federal inmates conducted nationwide. It found that nearly 80 percent of those interviewed got their guns from friends or family members, or on the street through illegal purchases.

Source

Statistically, even where gun ownership is legal, 80% of inmate interviews turned up that their firearms where bought by illegal means. Gun control, or banishment, does not reduce gun crime. All it does is make it easier for criminals to do whatever they want.

This IMHO!

reply to post by Muckster


Sorry who is calling for this idiotic ban???? May I have a link? I like guns. I think our laws are flawed as handguns are illegal. Our Olympic hopefulls for the sports requiring handgun shooting must leave the UK for practice. None of this would have been necessary if the police caught more criminals and that idiot in Hungerford was caught before the atrocity.

T

Has anyone yet to consider one important concept and that is of trust? I talk not of freedoms, liberties, or of crime rates, but what of trust? If a government can not trust it’s own people to hold a weapon, then surely there are only two reasons for it. The first is that the government is corrupt and wishes the people to be disarmed. The second is even more chilling, and that is that the people are so violent that there is actual concern that the people will shoot others just because they can own a gun.

Coming from a culture where children from a young age are taught the safe use of guns, yet also having never once in my lifetime heard of a single gun crime, I have come to the conclusion that it is simply an issue if the culture you live in. Do you live in a place where people can be trusted by their government and where people are kind and just enough not to kill, or do you live in a place where government cannot trust the people and where people are evil enough to kill? I live in the first, yet I know of many who live in the later.

What are your thoughts on this issue? Have those of you who defend or oppose guns based on crime and liberty considered the trust issue and the kindness of both people and government? (both ideas of crime and liberty vary greatly, I have heard of many speak of higher crime rate in the UK as well as lower depending on the source, and I have heard of many who say owning a gun is not a liberty just as others say it is).

Unfortunately the law cannot ban idiots and criminals

The next best thing is to ban the objects being used

Doesn't solve the problem at all unfortunately as all gun crimes are committed with illegally obtained guns.

People forget that it's people that kill people, sad but true. You could leave a loaded gun in a room and it's not going to damn thing until someone picks it up and conciously fires it, as I said though you can't ban people, so the government imposes a ban to look like they're doing something when in reality it solves nothing at all.

I don't want more guns in British society.

We have it about right.

Increase their availability and we will have more gun crime, further limit their availability and the criminals will still be able to get hold of them whilst those that want them for legitimate reasons won't be able to get them.

Anyone who wants a gun can get hold of one if they really need to.

I could say more, but I won't.

That youngsters feel the need to boast and brag about gun ownership and what they will do to people who 'dis' them etc is just a reflection of the deterioration in society and the americanisation of our teens etc.