EU President.. "EU Eurozone will bail out Greece"

reply to post by stephinrazin


Nice post explaining your views.

I'm torn between the EU.

On one hand I like the idea of a unified Europe. It's progress that's needed since Europe has had a tendency to erupt in to war over the past thousand years or so. Unifying is an attempt to solve this common problem on my continent. It also provides a sense of security and ease when visiting other countries in the EU as you know we're all apart of the same web and laws. We can't keep national sovereignty of every single country in the world unless mankind wants to explore the universe. Already NASA and ESA are sharing and supporting each other in certain ways

However...

I don't like the fact that people I never voted for make 80% of the laws in my country

and then there is this...

www.brugesgroup.com...

It's expensive, and it could be money being funneled back in to our econemy rather than somewhere in Eastern Europe. A selfish attitude perhaps but I've never seen nations in the east pay for a new sewer system or subway in a city in my country.

It's hard to tell if it is for bad or worse the EU because we are just sewing the seeds now for a strong foundation, even though there is some turbulence. I think that in the future we will be in a better position to judge, that may even be in 20 or 30 years but that's the way of the world. Even so, by then it may be too late to withdraw if it turns out to be not in the best interest to my nation.

Originally posted by stephinrazin
Is taxation the same? Do you think the Europeans are more tolerant of government intervention in their lives in return for peace? Could this also result of centuries of authoritarian rulers?

You are definitely picking up on this completely the wrong way..

Government intervention where exactly?? Extra taxes for social insurance and healthcare is all the intervention we have.. Apart from Environmental and safety regulations which we definitely want. We are all democracies after all.. And the EU is at the same level to us as the US government is to you. Its a federal government.

The EU doesn't intrude in my day to day life.. Neither does my government.. If I want lower quality healthcare for a cheap, flat fee, I get social healthcare.. If I want premium, I get health insurance.. Yes our governments employ more people than yours but in a similar way to how NASA runs.. Explain the Government intervention?

I have always wondered where Yanks got this idea from.. I mean, ye're government records all your emails and calls while having some of the strictest laws and highest incarnation rate in the world but ye think our governments impede on our day to day lives in some detrimental fashion..?


[edit on 12/2/10 by Dermo]

Originally posted by RWM88

I don't like the fact that people I never voted for make 80% of the laws in my country

If thats the case.. then you should start voting in the EU parliament elections because they have to vote on every bill or law..

You have a vote, use it instead of saying the above which doesn't really make sense tbh..

reply to post by Dermo


Dam...you must be dense if you think I didn't know I can vote for an MEP and the limitations of their powers.

Stop trying to cause an argument. It's obvious your fishing for one to boost your ego.

I mean I don't know how voting is in Europe, but in America I am afraid it is pointless. Don't get me wrong grass roots activism can put new ideas into the mainstream discussion, and also spark large movements. Still, the end result is usually ignored, or marginalized by the political culture. Voting is become pretty much a recgonition that you buy into the idea that your representatives pursue your interests. The reality is they do not. They cater to the aristocracy, and they cater to entrenched power systems. If a candidate ever reached the level of support neccesary to bring ideas that challenge the entrenched power structure they are marginalized. This past election Ron Paul a Republican should have seated a third of the party delegates, but was denied at the party convention. Even if a party nominated a landmark candidate the voting system is completely corrupt. Diebold voting machines are easily manipulated. African Americans are regulary disenfranchised, and using deceased people as votes is commonplace. Sad reality is that in America the vote is a gesture, and nothing real about it. I suppose that if enough grassroots support reached a plateu of near civil disobediance then maybe they would allow a real candidate. The police state prevents this from realistically occurring in my lifetime.
I do not know how Europe is, but I would be suprised if entrenched power structures do not rule as completely there as well.
How is the police state in Europe? I hear about cameras and over enforcement of petty offences in Britain. What about the continent?

Originally posted by RWM88
Dam...you must be dense if you think I didn't know I can vote for an MEP and the limitations of their powers.

Stop trying to cause an argument. It's obvious your fishing for one to boost your ego.

Im going to leave you with that one because you obviously took me up COMPLETELY wrong..

What you said was still incorrect.. no need to get all defensive over being corrected on it.

If you are going to go around here posting falsities like then expect to have someone say something about it.. We are a bunch of pedantic nerds after all

I do not know how Europe is, but I would be suprised if entrenched power structures do not rule as completely there as well.
How is the police state in Europe? I hear about cameras and over enforcement of petty offences in Britain. What about the continent?

If you have never been to Europe, its exactly the same as the US/Canada except with different architecture, cultures, languages, music and outlooks.. Laws and everything else are pretty much the same. The governments are slightly different. No governments are perfect. None are easy to change or get to do what they said they will do. Things vary from country to country.. England has the worst surveillance laws but in its defense, it is the second more populated country on the planet.

I have been to Europe several times, but I have never been to a protest there. I have not seen whether the police are as brutal europe. In america they will beat on you pretty good. Even disapear you if they think your a dissident leader. I have seen some scary things in America, and I am curious if European police are clamping down as well.

reply to post by stephinrazin


Wow - not that I have ever heard of tbh..

In the US, it seems that the average person's input when it comes to the political system is before the elections where all the major discussion and arguments take place..

For us the elections are pretty quiet but if things go wrong, we protest to show that we want change..

Protesting is a part of the political process here, our police are generally not rough unless the protests turn into riots.. and people definitely don't disappear.

Im sorry to hear that that may be happening in the US. Thats not saying that in 50 years time the same may not be happening in the EU with the federal government.

The present EU is a joke. What unity is there when an italian is as different from a greek as a french to a Pole? The difference lies in culture - which is traditions built up over time. The differences will always be there and will be something difficult to bridge overnight, akin to an emigrant attempting to intergrate into an older society.

Unity can only happen when an identity is shared and with a common destiny/goal, the way US was created, molded in a crucible of fire and flames, to disregard the past and envison a better future for all inhabitants.

Or, as some ridiculously here called for a return of Authoritarian Capitalist/NWO rule. Make no mistakes, such rulers are more efficiently utilitarian than benevolent egalitarian in nature. You are only worth as much as you can contribute or else you are left on the wayside to die. Growing old and feeble is your problem. Dont expect any welfare. Slavery does comes into mind

However, all is not lost, for evolution of EU unity do and will indeed occur. BUT not with this generation. The unity of EU will come from our next generation - our present 6 years old and more critically - WHAT IS TAUGHT TO THEM AND EXPECTED FROM THEM.

If properly nurtured, they will form and lead a new european unity without historical baggage and claims if the present gen allows it to be, WITHOUT embellishing or denying facts, but explaining the rationale for unity in honest terms. Wars must end, and afterall, we are the same human race. Only our traditions kept us all apart.

So much for EU, but back to the topic, had anyone sought to ask the Greeks what they think of the bailout or non-bailout?

If there are no bailouts, the greek govt is gonna have a hard time governing the island. Teachers and policemen with no wages, govt clerks outta jobs, ports go idle, etc.....Afterall, they are the ones who will be footing the bill. Bailouts are not charity, but loans from strong European banks who has the financial clout and capability to purchase Greek bonds.

And BEFORE ANY purchases made, had the european banks done a DUE DILIGENCE on how the govt intends to use the funds? If it continues to be corruptedly used, then it is a waste of good money.

And had the Greeks, the ones who will be paying for it through their taxes in income and daily use, been consulted, explained and convince of the political will to correct wrongs of corruption, siding with corporations, etc - better accountability for the bailout funds used?

If not, and the govt continue on its spendthrift course, it will not only doom the lovely island of Greece and its people, but the EU as well. No hardworking EU member citizen will want their savings and taxes burn up in profiligate spending.



[edit on 12-2-2010 by SeekerofTruth101]

I fully 100% give up, do something or stop debating conspiracys.

second line.

reply to post by Dermo


Isn't it great that a government can pull billions of pounds out of thin air when they need to bail themselves out of their own mess, but why can't I do the same. If my mortgage is in arrears, will the government bail me out?

Who did the government borrow the money from to bail out the banks?
Who did the government give the money to?
Why did the banks not just give money to themselves?

Why should I or anyone else be forced to pay money they don't have. There's also the fact that I don't have any connections to these businesses (Banks). This isn't a typical loan. It's not like I'll ever see a penny of this money that was borrowed to the banks by the government and it doesn't benefit me in any way. Yet this will be taken out of our taxes and we''ll get nothing in return, except more hardship. It's nothing more than daylight robbery.

If my morgage was in arrears and I owed the bank money and then just by chance I win the lottery and instead of paying off my debt to the bank, I decide to go on a shopping spree and blow the lot. This is exactly what the banks are doing when they hand out ridiculous bonuses. Surely there first priority would be to pay back the money that was loaned to them. If the banks get into further trouble. Again we'll be forced to bail them out and they'll no doubt contine to hand out ridiclous bonuses. Which means even more hardship for the rest of us. Their behaviour is nothing more than criminal. Remind me again why I'm bailing out these parasites.

It's only a loan if I get my money back and know I won't.

www.webtvhub.com...


[edit on 13-2-2010 by kindred]