How to end Mid-Eastern wars and make Arabs our allies

You could impress me with some instances of Islam attacking someone in the Western Hemisphere.

It has only been recent that muslims have been living on the North American Continent and thus the jihad here is young. But it is telling that as quickly as the muslim population grows on this continent, jihad grows right along side...just as Mohammed commanded.

You can follow the wave of Jihad in both space and time simply by starting with the Military exploits of Mohammed and his adherents, and his followers and descendants. Where Islam goes, so goes the Jihad.

Again, meaningful and long-lasting reform can happen if Islam renounces jihad, the death penalty for apostates, and sharia law.

[edit on 13-2-2010 by mike_trivisonno]

reply to post by mike_trivisonno


Ehhh....huh? (scratching head) I'm not sure what you meant by that last post my friend.

Damn your too fast, now it looks like I'm referring to the last post! Maybe I'm just too slow, eh?

[edit on 2/13/2010 by budaruskie]

reply to post by budaruskie
I was hoping you would take enough interest to look at the history of the Moorish invasion of EUROPE, after I encouraged you to make the first little effort to see what happened to Spain. Don't they teach world history in school anymore?

Originally posted by budaruskie
reply to post by mike_trivisonno

 

Ehhh....huh? (scratching head) I'm not sure what you meant by that last post my friend.

Damn your too fast, now it looks like I'm referring to the last post! Maybe I'm just too slow, eh?

[edit on 2/13/2010 by budaruskie]

Go read a history book!

Sorry. A perusal of history would be helpful.

[edit on 13-2-2010 by mike_trivisonno]

Originally posted by mike_trivisonno
If we understood and clearly stated that we are weary of the non-stop Jihad and that we understand its motivations and its structure, muslims would be more like to calm down for a while. But unless Islam goes through a reformation, we will be the target of Jihad.

Islam is more than a religious system, it is an all-encompasing tyrannical form of social control that has usurped the garb of religion and wielded it to deadly ends.

True.
I agree that Jihad has been used like a stick to punish those who are non believers. [Of their Version of Islam] I'll also agree that it has also been twisted from it's original purpose. To cleanse ones self of evil. To be brutally honest. More Muslims have died at the hands of other Muslims by Jihadist than by the west.

Just look at Iraq. The Sunni and Shia factions have been blowing each other up left and right.

Just a small sample.
Iraq bombing kills at least 20 as pilgrims converge on Karbala

BAGHDAD -- At least 20 people were killed and 117 were wounded Wednesday in an explosion just outside the southern Iraqi city of Karbala, despite increased security measures put in place during religious ceremonies this week.

Sixteen killed in Iraq bomb attacks

BAGHDAD: Sixteen people were killed in a spate of bomb attacks across Iraq on Tuesday, one of the worst days of violence in the country since US troops left its cities three weeks ago.

Nearly 100 people were wounded in the attacks in Baghdad, Baquba to the north of the capital and Ramadi to the west, just a day after seven police officers and a soldier died.

A one-year-old baby and a girl of eight were among four people who died when a bomb exploded at a market in the capital's Shiite slum district of Sadr City, police and the defence ministry said. Thirty-four others were wounded.

Police defused another bomb in the same market. Another four people, all workers, were killed and 31 wounded in an earlier twin bomb attack in Sadr City, a sprawling neighbourhood in northeastern Baghdad.

[edit on 13-2-2010 by SLAYER69]

Originally posted by novacs4me
reply to post by budaruskie

 

Don't they teach world history in school anymore?

Actually, I don't think that they do. But that is not the issue and please don't insult me, I wasn't insulting you. I'm truly not intimately familiar with the Moor invasion, but I think it is beside the point.

Here is why: all cultures and/or religions in the vicinity have at one time or another tried to conquer Europe and once again this is a very old example. It is an example, and I'm acknowledging it, but the freakin' Vikings also invaded Europe. They were not Christians and were very war-minded people whose religion called for it. Their descendents are still with us today and it did not take full on genocide to eventually get them to change their ways.

And for the other gentleman Mike so-and-so, couldn't the same be said about Christianity? Wherever christians go, historically, people were killed and persecuted in order to spread the faith as commanded by the faith itself. Or, must I show instances because I can?

[edit on 2/13/2010 by budaruskie]

The internecine conflict in the House of Islam is our wedge. It is generative of Islamic teachings and culture and not a response to any perceived enemy. Islam causes violence within itself and expresses violence (jihad) to non-muslims...just as Mohammed did.

We non-muslims should encourage this conflict and use it our advantage. The more their house is in disarray the better for us and our families.

And for the other gentleman Mike so-and-so, couldn't the same be said about Christianity? Wherever christians go, historically, people were killed and persecuted in order to spread the faith as commanded by the faith itself. Or, must I show instances because I can?

Actually, much of the last 1,400 years of Christian European History has been spent running like hell from the muslim hordes. And even when a hero like Vlad the Impaler defends the interface between the land of Islam and the Christian lands, in a manner that finally instilled terror into the muslim hordes, his name is now held in low regard.

Why do you think Europe sailed in search of new spice routes?

reply to post by budaruskie
Truly, the Moor invasion of Europe is relevant to the discussion. Have you ever read this quote? 'Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it'----George Santayana From his work; Life of Reason, Reason in Common Sense 1905.

If two different people came to the same conclusion within one minute of each other, that you need to learn some world history, doesn't that sound more like good advice than an insult? It is very discouraging to think that in order to convince you that Islam demands the world submit to Allah, we first have to teach you what is established world history. For you to suggest that I go find all the instances of attacks upon the West by Islamic forces prior to 'recent history', is lazy on your part, IMHO.

Originally posted by novacs4me
reply to post by budaruskie

 

Truly, the Moor invasion of Europe is relevant to the discussion. Have you ever read this quote? 'Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it'----George Santayana From his work; Life of Reason, Reason in Common Sense 1905.

Yes I have. You have convinced me, Islam is my mortal enemy. There is not a single historical rational Muslim in all of world history.

If two different people came to the same conclusion within one minute of each other, that you need to learn some world history, doesn't that sound more like good advice than an insult?

Actually, it very much depends on who is talking. You two have stuck to the Moors example but have very little else to say, so I'm not really worried about your opinions because you are avoiding the rest of the question. I'd also like to point out that this was originally supposed to be about finding a way to create peace, and you both constantly say or imply that peace is not achievable.

It is very discouraging to think that in order to convince you that Islam demands the world submit to Allah, we first have to teach you what is established world history. For you to suggest that I go find all the instances of attacks upon the West by Islamic forces prior to 'recent history', is lazy on your part, IMHO.

I didn't ask for all, I asked for a single example. But forget it, kill 'em all let god sort them out! Pray to God that our side is right. Oh and they went looking for a new spice route because a) yes it was very dangerous as was all ancient travel, and b) because they thought they could get there faster on the water! Once again, economically driven!

reply to post by budaruskie
Oh! I get it! If I give up my Christian faith, all the Muslims will stop waging jihad and we can all live in peace! Dang, why didn't I think of that? And while we are at it, maybe all the Jews, Hindus, atheists, agnostics, etc. can give up their beliefs, and then... oh wait... where does that leave us? Why we are all in your little utopia, where the peace loving Muslims can go on with what they do best, and we all live happy little dhimmi lives. Yippee skippee!

Originally posted by novacs4me
And while we are at it, maybe all the... agnostics, etc. can give up their beliefs

Agnostics have beliefs?


Edit to Add: I'm sorry I couldn't help myself that just sounded funny.

Proceed.


[edit on 13-2-2010 by SLAYER69]

I don't recall using Spain as a n example.

There are may good muslim people. However, there are even more muslims who would like to leave Islam but cannot because of the death penalty for apostates. There have been many who have left who now must live in mortal fear because of Islamic law.

There many non-muslim critics who now live in complete terror because they dare express themselves freely as Western cultures are used to doing.

There are contemporary examples of countries falling to or suffering under the assault of jihad. Lebanon, Kosovo, Chechnya, and Malaysia come to mind as well as America, Great Britian, and India.

Recognizing it for what it is, even if you don't agree with it, is important. They are doing what muslims have been doing since the inception of Islam. They wage jihad. To demean their holy obligation to the level of mere terrorism does you a disservice in your understanding of their motives.



[edit on 13-2-2010 by mike_trivisonno]

[edit on 13-2-2010 by mike_trivisonno]

Originally posted by SLAYER69

Originally posted by novacs4me
And while we are at it, maybe all the... agnostics, etc. can give up their beliefs

Agnostics have beliefs?

Edit to Add: I'm sorry I couldn't help myself that just sounded funny.

Proceed.


[edit on 13-2-2010 by SLAYER69]

Scratch the agnostics. You are right! Sorry about that.

Mike you are right and I sit corrected. You did not use the Moors as an example, you said the following:

Actually, much of the last 1,400 years of Christian European History has been spent running like hell from the muslim hordes. And even when a hero like Vlad the Impaler defends the interface between the land of Islam and the Christian lands, in a manner that finally instilled terror into the muslim hordes, his name is now held in low regard.

I would just like to point out the Spanish Inquisition and Charlemagne as historical references to Christians purging Europe of non-Christians in Muslim-like fashion.

and as for novaccs

Oh! I get it! If I give up my Christian faith, all the Muslims will stop waging jihad and we can all live in peace! Dang, why didn't I think of that? And while we are at it, maybe all the Jews, Hindus, atheists, agnostics, etc. can give up their beliefs, and then... oh wait... where does that leave us? Why we are all in your little utopia, where the peace loving Muslims can go on with what they do best, and we all live happy little dhimmi lives. Yippee skippee!

I didn't ask you to renounce your faith, although it would be nice. I don't live in Utopia nor do I fancy it, but it would be nice to not turn where I do live into a living hell with constant warfare against non-Christians. Please just acknowledge that both faiths have similiar beliefs when it comes to spreading "God's" word.

Since you guys are obviously history guru's and my miniscule intellect cannot grasp those great lessons you have learned please tell me: how do wars based upon religious beliefs (god vs god) turn out? What can we learn from the past?

And for the other gentleman Mike so-and-so, couldn't the same be said about Christianity? Wherever christians go, historically, people were killed and persecuted in order to spread the faith as commanded by the faith itself. Or, must I show instances because I can?

Yes. Yes, you should post those. But they are not going to help rid Islam of the tenets which invariably drive muslims to jihad. Indeed, if I am right, and I hope I am because I am spouting off here, much of the last 1,400 years of Christian European warfare has been a response to Islamic expansionist policies.

Even dismissing the Islamic occupation of Armenia, examples of jihad attacks and the responses delivered by the assaulted Christian nations abound. Indeed, even after the utter destruction visited upon Armenia, muslims were still unhappy. They turned towards Poland and began their jihad at Varna. If not for Sobieski, who knows what would have happened to central europe.

Originally posted by budaruskie

I didn't ask you to renounce your faith, although it would be nice. I don't live in Utopia nor do I fancy it, but it would be nice to not turn where I do live into a living hell with constant warfare against non-Christians. Please just acknowledge that both faiths have similiar beliefs when it comes to spreading "God's" word.

Since you guys are obviously history guru's and my miniscule intellect cannot grasp those great lessons you have learned please tell me: how do wars based upon religious beliefs (god vs god) turn out? What can we learn from the past?

Please tell me what place is being turned into a living hell by Christians. I've been a Christian for 30 years, as has my husband, and neither of us advocate nor in all of the dozens of churches we have belonged to separately or since our marriage 15 years ago, have either of us been taught to use violence for ANY reason.

Originally posted by mike_trivisonno

Yes. Yes, you should post those.

I did, see above post.

Indeed, if I am right, and I hope I am because I am spouting off here, much of the last 1,400 years of Christian European warfare has been a response to Islamic expansionist policies.

So all of those history books you speak of back this line of thinking huh? None of this was politically or economically motivated? Every single instance is the result of a murderous Muslim mob coming bringing jihad to new lands? Hell maybe all wars are motivated simply by religious differences, if they were, what would that say about religion in general?



[edit on 2/13/2010 by budaruskie]

It was economically inasmuch as Europe had no choice. Access to the East and the resources there was being cut off by Islamic powers. It would have been more economical to continue using the land routes.

Happy ending for Europe, they found a whole new continent and vast untapped wealth. So the elite continued to prosper, and the victims in the lands once held so dear by the powers in Europe were forgotten and the Christians who once lived there not spoken of again. And Islam ascended.

Originally posted by novacs4me


Please tell me what place is being turned into a living hell by Christians. I've been a Christian for 30 years, as has my husband, and neither of us advocate nor in all of the dozens of churches we have belonged to separately or since our marriage 15 years ago, have either of us been taught to use violence for ANY reason.

Well historically Europe, Africa, Asia, South America, then America. You know where they slaughtered all of the "savages" they couldn't turn Christian. Also, you are sort of making my point here. You are saying you are Christian and don't advocate violance and neither does your church. I believe you. However, there are countless instances of Christians doing harm to non-Christians for centuries just because they were not Christians. That is exactly how Europe and all the other places became Christianized, through murder and fear, according to the books I mean. But if I used your rationale, I would have to label you an extremist and potential threat due to the historical behavior of Christians. The KKK was/is a freakin' Christian organization.....are you a racist because other Christians are?