about death, grief and afterlife

This thread is probably for those who have a belief in some kind of “life after death” or at least the belief that death is an illusion and not the end of our essence. Of course, all opinions are welcome.

Personally I have that belief. For me it’s a “knowing” that there is more behind what we perceive as truth and more after this physical experience we call ‘life’. Although the details tend to shift with my theories, which are mostly based on my experiences, the basics of it stayed the same.

After my brothers’ death, almost two years ago, my entire belief system was put to the test. I was angry at the Universe or TPTB (God if you like), I hated It and eventually denied It’s existence. I needed to forget everything I thought I knew so far. Back then it felt like the most unspiritual period of my life, but looking back at it it may have been my most spiritual experience so far.
I’ve spend months re-analyzing, re-organizing, re-doing it all again, re-living every experience I had since childhood. I needed to ‘know’ again, I needed to be sure that I wasn’t deluding myself with my beliefs, that the untouchable that lies beyond this life isn’t an illusion, something I made up to feel better.
I won’t go into details, that would make an endless post, some of it I have posted elsewhere on this board, but I can say in all honesty that my most beautiful and insightful experiences came from grieving and recovering from my loss.

Maybe I’m writing this down so I can come back and read it again when I have the need to be reminded of the above.
As I write this, my father is very ill. He is dying from cancer.
So again I think about death and the times to come very often, if not all the time.

It strikes me that, with everything I belief in, everything I somehow ‘know’ to be true, I still cling on to the little life that is left in his body, not able to let go. This morning he was rushed to the hospital again.. and again they pulled him through. I, we all, wanted him to live, even for a short while longer, even when this life has no quality for him any more.


So I wonder, why do we do that?
Why do we cling to this life and aren’t able to let go?
Is it the selfish part of our self that doesn’t want to feel the pain of loss?
Is it a well rooted fear of death?
Why do we grief when we belief that the deceased lives on?
Why is it that in these times our (my) beliefs seem to fail on us?
Why is death such a hard topic when it is as natural and as much part of this life as birth?



[edit on 9/2/2010 by GypsK]

When we were curled up next to our mother's heart, we couldn't imagine a more perfect place to be or a more wonderful state of being. It took pelvic contractions to push us out of there, and it was very much against our wishes. Still, there aren't many among us that would gladly go back and crawl into a tiny, wet sack and squirm around in the darkness in a fetal position. Maybe now and then, but probably not forever.

This corporeal state is another gestation, and while it is important that we remain long enough to complete our development, when the contractions start happening, it's time to be born from this stage into the next. Now, this isn't New Age goofball rhetoric. This is an extremely simplified explanation of the biological process that is required to transform a human being from nothing into an eternal dynamic presence that is fully conscious of itself and the environment that contains it.

Your dad's contractions have begun. He'll feel relieved when they hit the tipping point and the channel is fully dilated. Then the pressure will ease, and he'll slide out smoothly and effortlessly. When that finally begins, just congratulate him and tell him you'll be along in due time. Outside of this 2nd stage placenta, associated members of the real world are crowded around and waiting for him to emerge. It's actually pretty exciting when it happens.

reply to post by GypsK


Hope you become blessed with the spirits to help guide you and your family through times like this. *hugs*

One thought that came to mine since I've had a similar situation with my grandmother, I wondered if she wanted to hold on despite her physical condition. At times, I felt as if I was connected to her to help breath for her.

Hello GypsK

I have always had that "knowing" aswell.

For me death is just a change of frequencies like changing the channels on your radio -- simple as that. We are energy, nothing in nature dies it just changes form. Why would we be any different?? Are we not nature?

You will see all those you have lost and will lose again. Perhaps not in the same context not in the daughter / Father sence but as two beings full of experience. The experiance of a daughter loving her father and of a father loving his daughter (assuming you are female). All this physical life is experiance. Their is no death.

The reason you can't let go is because you don't want to lose you father, your afraid of the unknown. Just know that he will be healthy, no pain, no sickness. He will have amazing experiances once he leaves this place.
Let him know that you will be fine and thank him for the experiances he's given you.

"Is it a well rooted fear of death?"
Well we fear what we don't understand.
Death is natural. The ego is the only thing that fears, you must let go. The
second you stop fighting the pain/fear will stop.

"Why is it that in these times our (my) beliefs seem to fail on us"
Because you let the ego get the better of you. The ego needs chaos to
substantiate its self.

"Why is death such a hard topic when it is as natural and as much part of this life as birth?"
Again because of fear of the unknown. Just remember That energy cannot be created or destroyed it just is.

Hope this helps.
_Orion




[edit on 9-2-2010 by Orion_grey]

[edit on 9-2-2010 by Orion_grey]

Originally posted by GypsK

So I wonder, why do we do that?

Because of UNKNOWING: because of not knowing what LIFE (not death) is about.
It is as simple as it is inevitable.
That is the reason why people of all cultures try to find a way to prolong life - even though they know that (well, in all likelihood) eventually, even after 300 years, their life would run out. The reason for coveting an extension is just that: to gain time - the time needed to, hopefully, figure out (or have it revealed - again), as individuals or as a civilisation, what all this is about.

I wish I had the time to write more extensively about this right now, but I don't.
However, I hope you will get answers from others - answers such as your sincere, thoughtful questioning deserves. (I can see you already got some very valid ones.)

It is very good to see, after a very long time, a thread tackling a worthwhile topic in such a sincerely thoughtful manner. (Yes, I am repeating myself, I know.)

I only wish you had not have to go through such painful experiences to write it.
Then again, perhaps you had to.
And believe me, in the end it will all turn out to have been worthwhile. It will all be well.
You shall see that.

All the best to your father and to all of your family.
(And keep the faith. Miracles do happen, you know - if not one way, then the other... :-)





[edit on 9-2-2010 by Vanitas]

I definitely believe in an afterlife...and of all the people I've known it has pained me the most to watch those close to me die who did not. They were very difficult to care for, and while I would not push my beliefs on them I did wish, almost selfishly, that they would believe in something because it seemed they wanted so much from me, they wanted me to convince them to believe in something yet ridiculed me for offering would I had to offer. I prayed for them anyway, privately though I don't usually pray for people unless they ask me to.

Best wishes to you and your family in this difficult time.

Coming to grips with what we believe can be excrutiatingly painful, because it requires us to be honest. Honesty hurts.

I've been wrestling with these same questions myself recently. This sounds very trivial, but its true, it started when I got a cat.. You see, I formed an extreme bond with him, and throughout his entire lifespan (he lived 13 years) I kept thinking "Well, he's only two so we'll be together a lot longer." I know that sounds beyond messed up, but its what I felt.

When he died, I was forced to acknowledge what I'd been trying to ignore the whole time. It was about so much more than a cat....it was about my own mortality, my relationships, and the inevitableness of life.

Examining his death and my own beliefs consumed me for the next several months....and then TSHTF. Four family members died separately in a row. Three from extended illnesses, one suddenly.

When you lose that many people, life gets down to the foundations. And when I found myself there, I realized that my faith does have some foundation after all.

I can't explain it (not that any of this will make sense, lol) but it just suddenly "occurred" to me that things would be okay. I would call it a sudden peace. I just knew, without conscious thought, that there is sometihng more. I can't articulate that feeling, but its real and its comforting.

Best wishes to you and your family as you go through this difficult time. Hugs all around....

reply to post by GypsK


Watching someone we love die is the worst pain imaginable, regardless of our belief in the afterlife. From my experience, for those who have confidence in the knowledge of the afterlife, the grieving period after the passing is far less painful.

I think this is because we are open to feeling the presence of our loved ones once they have departed.

We can't communicate the way we could when they where alive, but we feel their presence and they do whatever they can to help us to recover.

It is my understanding that the afterlife is very well organized and that our spiritual selves have a means of letting us know at a subconscious level that they are OK.

The worst time by far is the waiting and knowing that a loved one is going to die. That is when all of our fears about whether we are wrong and that we may never see them again manifests.

There are a lot of charlatans around who say they can communicate with the spirit, but there are also many who actually can and do communicate. If you have ever been to a spiritualist meeting and seen these people at work you would have no doubts whatsoever.

At this point I just like to thank everyone for the beautiful and insightful replies, U2U's and for the support.
It's comforting to know that everyone has/had to face these experiences at some point in our life and ask the same questions...
I don't know what else to write at this point.

It's 6 am over here. An hour ago I received a call from the hospital, they said he is getting worse and that it is best that we go there because he probably won't make it through the day.
And right at the same time it started snowing again so I'll have to wait untill the roads are cleared. I hope to get there in time and be with him when he dies, I know he is scared.

reply to post by GypsK

Stay strong GypsK, If you do get to see him before he passes it will help you to find closure. If you miss seeing him before he goes, just know that he knows how much you love him and he will take that with him.

It is natural that you should grieve but just know in your heart that he will be OK. He will be watching over you and it will make him sad to see you hurting.

Be strong for yourself and the rest of your family. Your confidence in his continuation of existence will be a great comfort for the rest of your family.

My sincere condolences, to you and all those that love him, he is on his way to a beautiful place and there is no grief where he is going, just the most perfect love.

It was almost noon when I arrived at the hospital yesterday, because of the snowstorm all the roads where blocked and it took us hours to get there instead of the usual 35 min.
When I got to his room he was sleeping and he looked peaceful.
The doctors said that his bloodpreasure had dropped over night to only 5/4 but they had it up to 7/5 again with Dopamine. Still very low but at least more stable then when they called me.
An hour later his kidneys stopped working and he started to have extreme pain episodes. The rest of the day they kept him under with Morphine, but every 3 hours he woke up and be in pain, then they gave him another dose of Morphine. The few times when he was awake and the drugs kicked in he did recognize us, but he didn't speak or answer to anything we said, he just stared at the walls. Sometimes he spoke meaningless words like "I lost my cigaret" or "where is the box?"....

Time to have a good chat with the doctors.
They said that if he's kidneys should start working again within the next 48 hours he could make it through this, if not he will go into shock and die. But even when he pulls through this he would only have days to weeks left because they can't threat the cancer anymore, his body can't take more chemo or radiation. I kind off already knew that.

Later that evening I stepped outside for a min to have a smoke while he was asleep, when I came back I could hear him screaming down the hall. Nurses running in and out of his room. When I entered his room, 3 nurses where trying to hold him on the bed. I took his hand and he looked at me with a look in his eyes that I have never seen in him. A look of pain and fear and he yelled "please make them stop, I can't take it anymore!".
It went on like that for the next half hour and I had to step outside the room because I couldn't watch it anymore. Eventually they gave him more Morphine, mainly because I begged them to. Later they explained to me that this much Morphine could give him breathing problems.
The above is what is happening right now every 3 to 4 hours.

I asked the doctors to put him on palliative care and make pain releave their first concern. If he only has a short time left he should live it pain free. But they can't do that yet. They have to try and pull him through this one first, after that he can go to palliative care.

It was almost midnight when I got home again.
Yesterday I left my house with a fear for his death, but I came home with a fear for his pain. That day has changed my entire view and my entire questioning that I did in my OP here.
He's in so much pain, no one should spend his last hours or days in that much pain, it's unethical to let a human being suffer like that, believe me he was suffering...
So where I was begging for his life at first, I'm now begging for his death.
I hope that in the next hours he will go to sleep and doesn't wake up again, so he won't be in pain anymore and that he will finally find peace.
When that happens I will grieve and know in my heart that he is with his son again.

On the other side, my father is fighting for his life and he keeps fighting, he doesn't want to die. He hasn't come to terms with his situation and he's very afraid for what is going to happen.
He's not ready to let go yet and all that is happening right now is very traumatic for him. So chances are that he will live on for several days, maybe pull through this one and live for several more weeks. Time will tell.

I decided not to go back to the hospital today because I can't bare to see him like that. It hurts me as much as he is hurting. The fear and the pain that I saw in his eyes yesterday is an image that I won't be able to get out of my head ever again. So I'm just sitting here, waiting for the phonecall.
And selfish me, I pray that it comes soon because I still "know" that he will be in a better place.
I only wish that he would know that aswell.


EDIT
I just had a call from my mother who is with my dad in the hospital.
After talking to the doctors they have desided to put him in a deep sleep for as long as it takes for him to die peaceful and without pain. In this state his body will stop fighting and it wil only be a matter of hours. They needed me to agree with this before proceeding and I sayd 'yes'.
I hope this is the right thing to do... it's so damn painful!



[edit on 11/2/2010 by GypsK]

A few replies I wanted to make:


To NOREASTER:
wow..
That is such a beautiful expression of the circle of life. Seeing all those stars I think I'm not the only one who thought that.
Hope you don't mind, I copied and saved your post on my computer, I'd like to show it to some of my family members

To DZONATAS
thanks, your words are much appreciated.
What you wrote about your grandmother, I feel the same way with my father right now...

To ORION-GREY
Yes I'm female, I have to agree overall with your post. It's just that in situations like these, doubt sets in. Right now I'm having an experience (see my last post) and although it opened my eyes, it's hurtful for him. I can only hope that he's not hurting for the sake of my experiences. That would just be evil...

To VANITAS
“not knowing what life is all about”, I like that one. Isn't it weird? People have been around for millions of years and still birth and death are the greatest mysteries of all time... Maybe that is exactly what makes us primitive beings on the grand scale of things... maybe...
If you find the time to 'tackle' this topic some more, please do so

To CRISCRIKEY
I know exactly what you mean. I also try not to push my beliefs onto others, although right now I wish my dad had the same beliefs as I do. He has ridiculed me often for believing. But I think deep down inside he beliefs as well, it's in the little things he said when he didn't even realize he said it

To SMYLEEGRL
actually, your post makes perfect sense!
Death does bring us back to the foundations of life, I guess a lot of people just don't know what to do with that. The feelings you describe you had with your cat, I sometimes do the same thing, reassuring myself that I have plenty of time left with certain animals or people.
I'm sorry for all the loss you had to go through, and for everyone else's loss here on the board. We can only hope it helps us grow....

To KENNYB72
I went to a medium several months after my brother died, she was pretty good. She somehow knew I painted and she said my brother wanted me to paint his picture. It took me weeks to start it, but when I finally did, I cried and cried until it was finished. This actually ended my grieving. I had to paint his image to have closure. Maybe she was a charlatan, but either way she helped me...
Thanks for your support and your replies, it's much appreciated

Today at 4.15 pm GMT my father died in the hospital.
As I described in a previous post, they put him into a deep sleep because he was in to much pain. So he died peacful, in his sleep, without fear or pain. I'm glad it happened that way and I'm glad his suffering is over... but I mis him already.


I don't want this thread to be one of condolences, but more on the subject of death and afterlife and why we grieve and react to it as we do and belief as we do.

Opinions are still welcome

Sorry to hear about your dad.

As for death, we fear what we don’t know. What comes after death is unknown. We do not know what comes after, that is why we fear it. For me I have no idea what comes after this life. I am pretty sure that something exists. I will probably not have an EGO after death. But I do believe something is there. With all this stuff about fractals and other stuff in the universe, it is hard to see that the universe started randomly. So I am pretty sure something exists. Whether its heaven or just floating in purgatory, something is out there.


[edit on 11-2-2010 by Maddogkull]

i dont know why but death has never bothered me, i've not even felt grief for anyone not even family. my only concern with death is if i'll still exist after dying and how much dying hurts.

Hi Gypsk,

If you may, U2U me your fathers name, i will send him reiki through my distant healing group if you will accept it.

Peace

All things, good and bad, work together for the good of the whole (meta-good). We shall not be afraid of death because it is only natural, and necessary. So why shed tears? It would be better to acknowledge all of these things for what they are. Nature/the gods/Reason has a plan for all men, and these planned paths work together; it is better for one to embrace the plan laid out for them than to reject it, which would almost guarantee more hardship. We should therefore live in accordance with nature, and not opposed to it. Given our plans, we've been prepared for tremendous things, but even when we are unprepared, all was according to plan; there is no "bad."

We should celebrate each day for what it is and what it brings us. We should celebrate not only the blooming of the flowers and of the leaves, but the changes of the seasons that bring about their death, as well--the cold winters, the wet rains, and the howling winds. Even though every day might not bring us good fortune, all has been done for the sake of something grander.

In the words of the Christian Esoterist Meister Eckhardt, "To be full of things is to be empty of God. To be empty of things is to be full of God."

My family has been dealing with this as well. The complex feelings of those who remain are almost too difficult to articulate but it seems to me we are usually crying for ourselves and for others whose lives will invariably be changed by the passing.

I've found a few quotes that have given me a bit of comfort:

"When you are sorrowful look again in your heart, and you shall see that in truth you are weeping for that which has been your delight." ~ Kahlil Gibran

"It is the will of God and Nature that these mortal bodies be laid aside, when the soul is to enter into real life; 'tis rather an embrio state, a preparation for living; a man is not completely born until he be dead: Why then should we grieve that a new child is born among the immortals?" ~ Benjamin Franklin

I also tend to think that death of a loved one or even an acquaintance or someone with whom we identified causes us to look at our own life and legacy. Is it well-lived? Who will cry for us? What will our loved ones do once we're gone? What impact on this plane have we made?

I've been experiencing my own questions in regard to the afterlife myself lately. About two weeks ago my ex committed suicide and this action has left a bitter-sweet feeling within. I'm not sure what was going through his mind, nor will anyone know but him, but I feel as though he is at peace. However a person can find it after leaving so tragically. When I think of him I wonder how he is and when I look deep enough I know he's OK on some level.

I wish I could put my mind at rest though. I've never experienced anything like this and is new territory for my soul to journey through.

Originally posted by namehere
i dont know why but death has never bothered me, i've not even felt grief for anyone not even family. my only concern with death is if i'll still exist after dying and how much dying hurts.

Don't you feel that same concern when a loved one died? Or wonder if they still exist somewhere else?
I can't imagine not grieving... it seems like a natural thing to me