Schools War On Religion?

Originally posted by Equinox99
Both sides fail. Either way they are teaching students what they are told, not to think for themselves. Science drives technology and many subjects, but religion draws philosophy. You don't have to teach creationism or the ten commandments, but teach them the philosophical stance of sides.

The bible might not explain the facts of how the world was created but are the teachings that crap? Maybe that is what is wrong with society today. You are not taught to help other people out, it is all about yourself. You want the money so you can buy things which benefit yourself.

Thats why I feel both Genesis and evolution should be taught, not one over the other. You say today it's all about yourself. But not once in the bible did Jesus act "all for himself". Religion, among doing other things, can instill a good set of morals and security.

Originally posted by theflamingswan92
Why is it that you can not ask a student or a student ask a teacher thier religious beliefs? Why is it that they teach evalution and not creationism? Why is it that some teachers were suspended and fired for even saying God in a classroom? I will tell you why. They don't want you to think outside the box.

Jesus said,"Deny me in front of your friends and I will deny you in front of my father"...

This is purely speculation but I would love some extra insight.. Post comments below

I will tell you why. Because religion is a Church matter, and school is a State matter. School must remain secular lest we become as some other nations are, where religion dictates everything. Do you really want that, flamingswan? And once again, though you will surely not listen...Jesus was a man, not a God. Show me in the Bible, or anywhere else, where Jesus said he was God, claimed to be God. I'll tell you what he did say, he said "your Father is not my Father, your Father is the Devil."
bible.cc...
To raise a man to the status of a deity is Idol Worship, plain and simple. Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Exodus 20:3 (Deuteronomy 5:7, Judges 6:10, Hosea 13:4) Ring a bell? Those of us who do "think outside of the box" are generally not Christians anyway. Religion is a box, a very tiny one too. If my son's teacher began to teach religion, any religion, to my boys, I would have their job.

reply to post by theflamingswan92

Another question then...

If you believe that religion is a choice that should be made by the student, at what age can that be determined? If there is no one-size-fits-all maturity than how are the schools able to discern when that decision becomes the student's responsibility as opposed to being a forced indoctrination of students too young to make the decision?

*This should be a family decision and not a public school decision.

There is also a reason why classes in Religion are offered (not mandate) in High School and College. At that point, students who wish to pursue it have the option.

*I still believe that public schools adhering to Separation of Church and State is the best policy and those families who do not wish to attend public school always have the option of a attending a religious, specialized or charter school that academically fits with their core beliefs.




[edit on 9-2-2010 by LadySkadi]

The only place the bible should be taught in school is in literature class, along side Paradise Lost, A Brave New World and 1984. Like other pieces of great fiction, the bible is a great read. It's full of genocide, incest, and murder - all great stuff for young minds, so long as it's taught as a piece of fiction.

Presenting the bible as real, as gods word, is nothing short of a betrayal of our children. A removal of their critical faculty to question the intrinsic nature of something. It's brainwashing.

reply to post by autowrench


I just feel that teachers should teach both instead of one over the other, not go into full detail, but just give students a taste, and let the students sit with their families and decide what they will choose to believe. When I have kids, me and my wife will sit with them and show them both sides of the coin, not just one, what they choose is their buisness

reply to post by LadySkadi


I feel that it is up to them whenever they come home with the quesion "Dad I heard this in school is it true?" then you sit them down and tell them both sides of the story, regardless of what your personal beliefs are, and let them decide..

Just like how I wouldn't want my kid's teacher putting him in a box, I wouldnt do it to him either, what he chooses is his buisness... But the question "Where did we come from" often comes at an early age (in my opinion)

reply to post by mithrawept


I respect your opinion, but I have to disagree.. Personal perception of what is real and what isn't doesn't make it so... For example, Treasure Island, it is said to be a work of fiction... But who says it didnt happen?

Originally posted by theflamingswan92
Why is it that you can not ask a student or a student ask a teacher thier religious beliefs? Why is it that they teach evalution and not creationism? Why is it that some teachers were suspended and fired for even saying God in a classroom? I will tell you why. They don't want you to think outside the box.

Jesus said,"Deny me in front of your friends and I will deny you in front of my father"...

This is purely speculation but I would love some extra insight.. Post comments below

The students are a captive audience to the person teaching the religion. It's real easy to say christian this and christian that but what I haven't heard really is it okay for a muslim or hindu or pagan or devil worshiper or whatever to have your kids 8 hours everyday and pushing his or her agenda onto your kids. It's somewhat okay from your prospective if it's a christian, but if one of the other religions where being shown and talked about as how good it is and such to your kids 8 hours a day many parents would freak out and demand that teacher fired also. And the reason is that all religions think THEY ARE RIGHT and the others ARE WRONG. Everyone of them think they are the chosen or god man/woman over all the other animals/human/pagan beliefs. That's whay it isn't taught in public school, because it opens a door into indoctrination and essentially violence when the parent finds out that his kid who is a christian is having to pray to MECCA everyday a couple of times and is starting to believe what the teacher says over what the parent taught them.

We as a nation is at a critical time now. We for so long wanted to define ourselves one way, but with more people and different cultures coming to the US we have to consider what is an American. I don't think no schools should be teaching any religion for the simple fact that I go their to learn, but our society now has become one that shows disdain for intelligence. When the curtains come down on the Empire of the USA like others before us, children hundreds of years from now will ask how did the USA break apart. They will be told that the US govt. reflected it's people. A people that was caught up in a system of intolerance, hatred, and disdain for anybody that wasn't like their group. And in so being a nation of tribes, the country broke into a nation of tribes because they didn't want to consider themselves a NEW CULTURE.

Originally posted by theflamingswan92
Why is it that you can not ask a student or a student ask a teacher thier religious beliefs? Why is it that they teach evalution and not creationism? Why is it that some teachers were suspended and fired for even saying God in a classroom? I will tell you why. They don't want you to think outside the box.

Jesus said,"Deny me in front of your friends and I will deny you in front of my father"...

This is purely speculation but I would love some extra insight.. Post comments below

The students are a captive audience to the person teaching the religion. It's real easy to say christian this and christian that but what I haven't heard really is it okay for a muslim or hindu or pagan or devil worshiper or whatever to have your kids 8 hours everyday and pushing his or her agenda onto your kids. It's somewhat okay from your prospective if it's a christian, but if one of the other religions where being shown and talked about as how good it is and such to your kids 8 hours a day many parents would freak out and demand that teacher fired also. And the reason is that all religions think THEY ARE RIGHT and the others ARE WRONG. Everyone of them think they are the chosen or god man/woman over all the other animals/human/pagan beliefs. That's whay it isn't taught in public school, because it opens a door into indoctrination and essentially violence when the parent finds out that his kid who is a christian is having to pray to MECCA everyday a couple of times and is starting to believe what the teacher says over what the parent taught them.

We as a nation is at a critical time now. We for so long wanted to define ourselves one way, but with more people and different cultures coming to the US we have to consider what is an American. I don't think no schools should be teaching any religion for the simple fact that I go their to learn, but our society now has become one that shows disdain for intelligence. When the curtains come down on the Empire of the USA like others before us, children hundreds of years from now will ask how did the USA break apart. They will be told that the US govt. reflected it's people. A people that was caught up in a system of intolerance, hatred, and disdain for anybody that wasn't like their group. And in so being a nation of tribes, the country broke into a nation of tribes because they didn't want to consider themselves a NEW CULTURE.

reply to post by hoghead cheese


That is an excellent point Hoghead cheese, I haven't really considered every religion. I am a Christain so I was fighting for my right to learn Genesis in school, I haven't taken into account how many variations of beliefs and systems there really are...

However it brings me back to an earlier comment of mine "teach both or nothing at all" And since the schools won't likely teach every variation on religion, I guess they shouldn't teach evolution either... For it would be sacreligious and unfair to the worshipers, what ever their God may be. How do you feel about not teaching evolution?

okay "the separation of church and state" is nowhere in the consitution. however the first ammendment says

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

So no religion is not taught in public school but nobody can stop students from worshping what they want or believing in what they want. The firs ammendment does not mean that kids can't pray in school it means that they cannot be made to pray in school. Your child can read his bible at school (on his or her own time) but the school cannot make a student read the bible.

Why is it that you can not ask a student or a student ask a teacher thier religious beliefs?

I think this is a general misconception. There are many students and many teachers across the world that debate religion and god.

That is not to say that what we are not conditioned to think that this is the case.

The media promote this ideology so we can adapt it to our perception of the world.

Why is it that they teach evalution and not creationism?

They teach both however the theory of evolution is documented scientifically to a degree where as creationism falls more into the catagory of mythology and philosophy. That evolution can be studied factually predetrmines that it something that can be taught more easily than creationism.

Why is it that some teachers were suspended and fired for even saying God in a classroom?

I am sure this is rare and is almost always based on an over reaction which is then further sensationalized by the media.

I will tell you why. They don't want you to think outside the box.

Then it would be worthwhile thinking outside it no?

Jesus said,"Deny me in front of your friends and I will deny you in front of my father"...

indeed he did, point being that your either with us or your not with us.

please remember if you disagree that is fine.

This is purely speculation but I would love some extra insight.. Post comments below

reply to post by darkelf


It definitely sounds like a good idea, but school is mandatory, so if you consider religious education as something that needs to be taught, then shouldn't it be enforced by the state?

reply to post by zaiger


I never said that students cant do all that.. They just can't get into a discussion with their teacher about God. Teachers cant talk about God, or Genesis at all. They can only show you one side of a two sided coin.

If a student can not activly discuss God or Genesis (creationism) with their teachers, they shouldn't be able to talk about evolution either. Its showing one side of a coin. Its best to show both and let the kids decide.

Why should religion and education not be brought together? Simple really. No religion is correct. One person may think that their religion is the 'true' one but they don't really have any evidence for this. A belief is fine, but when you say why teach evolution but not about religion it baffles me. I thought we had had moved on from teaching about fairies and the like.

Let me give a breakdown of what a school curriculum should be...

Native language class - one should be able to commuicate effectively in their native language.
Maths - simple really - numbers make the world go around.
Science - Proper science - physics, chemistry, biology.
Geography - let's inform youngsters about the world around us and how it works on a physical and human level.
Languages - everyone should try to speak at least one other language to encourage diversity and exchange of cultural ideas.
History - We cannot move forward without knowing the mistakes we made in the past.
Citizenship - youngsters should learn tolerance, ethics and how to be the best person they can be.
Sports - we all need exercise.

Note that in none of the above does god come into it. We can function as a species far better without a belief in such a thing.

Let schools educate.
Let churches and cults brainwash and manipulate.

Cado

reply to post by vyrox


I didn't say it needed to be taught I said it should be in a brief lesson, along with evolution, and up to the children and their families to decide.. Its only fair they hear the two sides of the story.

Imagine if court hearings were just the prosacution... there would be no appeals.

reply to post by theflamingswan92


Why? When there is no evidence that genesis ever happened?

That is your viewpoint - give me the evidence that a beardy dude created it all and I will buy in. I don't ask that the notion of ET existance is taught in schools. That is my view - others may subscribe if they wish.

I fail to understand why religions insist they are given such validity.

Edit to add: if people paid more attention to their spelling rather than fairy stories, their message may be taken more seriously.

[edit on 9-2-2010 by cado angelus]

reply to post by cado angelus


You can not have a succesfull understanding without two sides to choose from. They should integrate the evolution/creationism into one lesson, or abolish the evolution lecture entirely. It's up to the student to choose his/her belief system, monkey to man, or creationism... Showing just one side and neglecting another is creating a box...

reply to post by theflamingswan92


The way i was taught it was the best. We got a flyer to take home and in it said something like we are going to teach evolution and creationalisim in the science class. The parents had to sign it and check weather they wanted their child to sit in on the class or taken out of the class for the science segment.

reply to post by cado angelus


Again perception doesn't make it so... Can you prove you were once a monkey?