France snubs U.S., will sell ship to Russia, page 1

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Topic started on 9-2-2010 @ 02:54 AM by Mdv2

France snubs U.S., will sell ship to Russia

washingtontimes.com

Dealing Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates a diplomatic slap, France announced Monday it will sell at least one amphibious assault warship to Russia.

The sale, the first by a NATO member to Russia, comes despite objections from U.S. and other NATO members and was disclosed while Mr. Gates was visiting Paris.

(visit the link for the full news article)

Related News Links:
www.chinadaily.com.cn

reply posted on 9-2-2010 @ 02:55 AM by Mdv2

Russia has been interesting in buying amphibious warships since their war with Georgia. An Russian official claimed that such a ship would have fastened the movement from troops from 26 hours with their current ships, to 40 minutes.

I think France made a good decision not to listen to the US. We should have embraced Russia right after the fall of the Soviet Union. Instead, we have always continued to threat them as enemies. Strategically, Russia is not only important to Europe, but also to the US. If the US would have stopped poking the bear, they would probably have supported sanctions against Iran and they would also be on our side regarding China, which they consider to be a threat too, but an enemy of their enemy - the US.

The US should let go off the Cold War as well its legacy: NATO.

washingtontimes.com
(visit the link for the full news article)

reply posted on 9-2-2010 @ 03:30 AM by thoughtsfull

I'm surprised Russia has not built their own ships.. I was watching RT yesterday and they ran the story, and the byline that Russia intends to buy more ships from France..

at the moment I understand the negotiations are on technology rights, maintenance agreements etc.. not sure of the details.. but it is an interesting development.

reply posted on 9-2-2010 @ 03:36 AM by Zosynspiracy

reply to post by Mdv2

How can the US government let go of their cold war era mentality when the same old codgers who were running things back then are running things now? That's the whole problem with the US government. You've got a bunch of old, stuck in their ways, senile white men who've been running things forever. That's why this country needs a cap on terms for Senators and Congressman. 4-8 years and YOU"RE DONE! FINISHED! None of this career politician crap least of all 90 year guys like Byrd. I mean he's a dyed in the wool racist who hails back to times of segregation and the KKK. The world has changed........and will continue to change. American needs thinkers and people in government that are going to change with it. What the hell does a 90 year old Senator have in common with a country that has approached the 21st century?

reply posted on 9-2-2010 @ 03:53 AM by Britguy

The "Cold War" was a con from start to finish.
The people of the west were all told continually that the Russkies might launch nuclear Armageddon at any time, but it was all lies.
Now, they are starting to ramp things up once again against nasty ol' Russia. The boys in the defence industry are laughing all the way to the bank - again!

Thing is, there are people who need us to live in a perpetual state of fear. It's all a control mechanism, there to enrich certain industries and allow the government more control over us all. Take away the fear and control and we might start asking too many questions and focusing out attention on them, not on some mythical bogeyman or foreign power.

Then there is the defence industry. If peace broke out all over, their profits and power would evaporate, so they use their political clout to keep us in constant wars. Add to that all the outsourced military functions and it's easy to see why we are in those wars and where all the country's money is going.

reply posted on 9-2-2010 @ 04:29 AM by pieman

Originally posted by Zosynspiracy
What the hell does a 90 year old Senator have in common with a country that has approached the 21st century?

damn those democratically elected representatives, they don't have the mandate of the people.

clearly he has enough in common with enough of the voters to be re-elected!!

i really don't see how this is a snub to the US, france can sell ships to whomever it pleases, the US has no right to input on the matter and should realise that.

reply posted on 9-2-2010 @ 05:25 AM by NightoftheComet

Originally posted by Zosynspiracy
reply to post by Mdv2

How can the US government let go of their cold war era mentality when the same old codgers who were running things back then are running things now? That's the whole problem with the US government. You've got a bunch of old, stuck in their ways, senile white men who've been running things forever.

What the hell does being white have anything to do with it. I would appreciate it if you keep your racism to your self.

reply posted on 9-2-2010 @ 05:54 AM by Subjective Truth

reply to post by Mdv2

You Europeans never stop amazing me are you all really this ignorant? You should read up on ww2 and your countries history how did staying neutral work out for you then? But you guys never learn from history that is why Europe is always on the verge of collapse from the inside out. And armies always find it easy to take your pathetic countries over it is your weak minded liberal people that never learn from there mistakes don't you see.

I know I will get flamed for this but it is the truth and history has proved it out pick up a history book and read it for yourself. But things have changed right

It would be funny if you guys arm them up and then they decide to expand again. Don't worry I am sure we will come and save you pathetic,ungrateful,impotent,surrender happy, bleeding hearts once again. Sorry this post is so harsh but it is like a child that never learns after awhile you just get mad.

[edit on 9-2-2010 by Subjective Truth]

[edit on 9-2-2010 by Subjective Truth]

reply posted on 9-2-2010 @ 05:57 AM by Zosynspiracy

reply to post by NightoftheComet

Calm down nancy I'm a caucasian myself. Point is how many 75-90 year old minorities do you see in Congress and the Senate? The US government has been an old homogenous boys club for far too long. America is a melting pot and it's about time our government represents that. Larry Byrd is a good ol boy racist POS. As a white person as long as I have to live with hispanics, blacks, asians, etc....they should be more represented in government. That's my point. Also it would be nice to see 30 and 40 year old senators and congressman.

reply posted on 9-2-2010 @ 06:09 AM by pieman

reply to post by Subjective Truth

most europeans have lived in a houses older than your country, take a moment to consider that before estimating americas impact on "history".

america is still current affairs by european standards whereas russia is..... russia. communist, stalinist, tsarist, whatever, it's always russia.

i mean, the "ungrateful,impotent,surrender happy" french have marched on moscow. what have the americans done? shouted a few obscenities from behind a wall in germany!! wow, impressive.

while we're talking about the french and ignorance of history, if you'll recall, they also won the "war of Independence" for you guys, so you might say americans owed them one.

[edit on 9/2/10 by pieman]

reply posted on 9-2-2010 @ 06:16 AM by hillbilly4rent

Originally posted by Zosynspiracy
reply to post by Mdv2

How can the US government let go of their cold war era mentality when the same old codgers who were running things back then are running things now? That's the whole problem with the US government. You've got a bunch of old, stuck in their ways, senile white men who've been running things forever. That's why this country needs a cap on terms for Senators and Congressman. 4-8 years and YOU"RE DONE! FINISHED! None of this career politician crap least of all 90 year guys like Byrd. I mean he's a dyed in the wool racist who hails back to times of segregation and the KKK. The world has changed........and will continue to change. American needs thinkers and people in government that are going to change with it. What the hell does a 90 year old Senator have in common with a country that has approached the 21st century?

Last time I checked there was a black man running the country and what in the blue bloody blazes dose this have to do with France and Russua .

Sorry back to the OP

reply posted on 9-2-2010 @ 06:20 AM by Subjective Truth

reply to post by pieman

You mean the house your grandpa and grandma rebuilt after the Americans gave it back to them and oh ya they also helped them rebuild if I remember history correctly. Pick up a book and read it for yourself, Without America you would not exist am I right or am I wrong? You should drop to your knees and pray this great nation carries on so we can save you again in the future. And don't worry I am sure when we come to liberate you your attitude will have turned 180 degrees. The freedom we have given you has made you arrogant and weak. You have wasted it and I feel bad for the men who died to give it to such ungrateful people.

[edit on 9-2-2010 by Subjective Truth]

reply posted on 9-2-2010 @ 06:38 AM by pieman

Originally posted by Subjective Truth
You mean the house your grandpa and grandma rebuilt after the Americans gave it back to them and oh ya they also helped them rebuild if I remember history correctly.

as in iraq and afghanistan today, america calls it "helping to rebuild" i call it war profiteering. you may remember the history you were taught, but you don't seem to understand it.

Without America you would not exist am I right or am I wrong?

wrong!! idiot.

And don't worry I am sure when we come to liberate you your attitude will have turned 180 degrees.

i'm sure i'll have the same attitude as the "liberated" people in the middle east and south east asia and south america!! there are an awful lot of people in the world that aren't all that welcoming to liberating americans, aren't there?

reply posted on 9-2-2010 @ 06:40 AM by Muckster

reply to post by Subjective Truth

You Europeans never stop amazing me are you all really this ignorant? You should read up on ww2 and your countries history how did staying neutral work out for you then?

I hope you are not including Britain in this rant... Britain was NOT neutral. Saying that... neither was France!!

But you guys never learn from history that is why Europe is always on the verge of collapse from the inside out. And armies always find it easy to take your pathetic countries over it is your weak minded liberal people that never learn from there mistakes don't you see.

I'm afraid its you that hasn’t learnt history. Its seems that the only history you are aware of is fragments of WW2. “Europe on the verge of collapse”? “Pathetic country’s”??... Please sir... learn some manners and respect when conducting yourself in public!

I know I will get flamed for this but it is the truth and history has proved it out pick up a history book and read it for yourself. But things have changed right It would be funny if you guys arm them up and then they decide to expand again. Don't worry I am sure we will come and save you pathetic,ungrateful,impotent,surrender happy, bleeding hearts once again. Sorry this post is so harsh but it is like a child that never learns after awhile you just get mad

Your post is not harsh... it just comes across as an uneducated childish rant!

To the OP...

I am still weary of Russia... and am definitely not comfortable with France selling them weapons platforms...

People moan about the USA but Russia has 1000 times more corruption than the USA... You cannot trust Russia, not because of the Russian people, but because it is politically unstable. Russia is starting to sort these issues out but in my opinion they are not there yet.

They still have massive problems with extreme right, fascists, and communist groups fighting for power... they still have rouge elements of politicians and military. The criminal underworld in Russia is HUGE and its tentacles reach deep into the heart of Russia politics!

But, having said all this... NO ONE has the right to tell France who to sell weapons to...

For America to be angered by this is no different than China being angered at the USA for the sale of weapons to Taiwan!

While i am not comfortable with selling arms to Russia... i also know that it’s not really any of my business!

Like it or not, Russia is no longer considered an enemy... so i don’t really see what anyone can do!

reply posted on 9-2-2010 @ 06:51 AM by thoughtsfull

reply to post by Subjective Truth

I'm interested to know in which History books you recommend will show me where and when Americans gave my family back their homes???

back on topic, The interesting part of the story is the question why Russia is NOT developing it's own amphibious assault fleet?? I am sure they have the capability and materials.. I find that part really interesting..

reply posted on 9-2-2010 @ 06:56 AM by thoughtsfull

reply to post by Muckster

The French sell to whoever they please as exampled in the excorcet issue in the Falklands (tho I understand they did help us learn to disarm the ones on the black market)

France will always do what is in France's best interests, if it is selling lots of Amphibs to Russia they will.. After all it is jobs.. I am just suprised that Russia has no credible amphibs of their own! that is a puzzle.

(I wish sometimes that we would do what is in our best interests.. but I guess our establishment is only ever after their own best interests)

reply posted on 9-2-2010 @ 06:59 AM by noonebutme

Originally posted by Subjective Truth
...Without America you would not exist am I right or am I wrong?

Very wrong.

I certainly don't deny that America has contributed to a great many positive things in the world and has helped many people.

But you are not the saviour of the planet. You are not everyone's hero, nor are we, Brits, here because of you.

Keep in mind that during WW2, America kept itself out of the conflict for a long time when Britain, Canada, Australia and others were already embroiled in the conflict against the Nazis. It was only because of Pearl Harbour did you guys actually decide to 'join in'. So it wasn't a "selfless act" - you were attacked and responded, as anyone would.

But it wasn't for "the good of the people" of Europe. It was your own self interest.

[edit on 9-2-2010 by noonebutme]

reply posted on 9-2-2010 @ 07:14 AM by neformore

Originally posted by Subjective Truth
You Europeans never stop amazing me are you all really this ignorant? You should read up on ww2 and your countries history how did staying neutral work out for you then? But you guys never learn from history that is why Europe is always on the verge of collapse from the inside out. And armies always find it easy to take your pathetic countries over it is your weak minded liberal people that never learn from there mistakes don't you see.

Oh dear...

If you want to discuss the actual facts of WW2 then fine, lets do that.

The US entered the war in 1941, two years after hostilities broke out, and was one of a number of countries who contributed troops and vehicles in the liberation of Europe from the Nazis.

Before that time, Britain held off the Nazi's by itself until the decisive events of the Battle Of Britain, after which Hitler cancelled Operation Sealion.

The biggest casualty count in WW2 was that of the Soviets, and using theirir own manpower they drove Germany back from within 12 miles of Moscow all the way back to Berlin

The breakdown of troops in the D-Day Landings was made up of 83115 troops of the British Second Army (61, 715 of which were British) and the USA contributed 73,000 men.

Invasion of Normandy

Allied land forces that saw combat in Normandy on 6 June came from Canada, the Free French Forces, the United Kingdom, and the United States. In the weeks following the invasion, Polish forces also participated, as well as contingents from Belgium, Czechoslovakia, Greece, and the Netherlands.[5] Most of the above countries also provided air and naval support, as did the Royal Australian Air Force,[1] the Royal New Zealand Air Force, and the Royal Norwegian Navy.[2]

And yes, by the end of the war the US contingent was considerably larger, but the myth that the US alone "saved the day" in Europe is exactly that, and while we do owe a massive debt of gratitude to the members of the US forces who made the ultimate sacrifice when helping to liberate Europe, the attitude you display is, frankly, insulting to the dead of other nations who were part of the actions.

As for the cold war, both the British and French had nuclear deterrents of their own and were capable of laying waste to industrialised Russia by themselves - and they still retain that capability today.

As for the topic - the international arms industry is extremely profitable, and the worlds largest arms exporter is the USA. Strikes me that complaining about an arms sale is nothing short of hypocrisy.

[edit on 9/2/10 by neformore]

reply posted on 9-2-2010 @ 09:41 AM by CanadianDream420

Maybe the US should have sold Tanks to Germany pre-1945.............

reply posted on 9-2-2010 @ 10:04 AM by Peruvianmonk

reply to post by Mdv2

This French refusual to listen to U.S requests stems righ back to the war in Algeria. During this conflict America pressured the Fench to come to a negotiated peace with the Algerian rebels (FLN). This led to De Gaulle pulling out of NATO and the embarkation on a forgein policy independent of the U.S.

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