Do skeptics and debunkers belong in a conspiracy website?

I've watched as a number of the more knowledgeable members have withdrawn or been banned. A pattern emerges.

It started getting heavy when Israel went into Gaza last year. Commonly someone tries to confront the torrent of antisemitism that floods the site with baseless malign reports on Israeli activities, attempts to claim Mossad was responsible for 9/11, etc.

A lynch mob of alerted regulars show up on the thread with their links to Neo-Nazi site analysis and Pallywood industry videos.

The discussion becomes inflammatory and the inevitable "Jews run the world" rhetoric becomes overwhelming.

Someone gets really angry and lashes out - and gets banned. Then it starts anew on another thread.

This happens on the 9/11 forum but within somewhat different parameters.

I'd say the lunatics have taken over the asylum. The barbarians have brought down the gates. The Internet trolls have won due to their vast numbers and persistence.

Those of us trying to being enlightenment and discussion are now like the isolate monks in the Dark Ages.

Maybe an overreactive melodramatization on my part, but how I feel these days on this site.


M





[edit on 8-2-2010 by mmiichael]

I'm going to repost something I posted in a similar thread yesterday:

"Let me say this, WE NEED SKEPTICS.

How can we ever be taken seriously if we even contemplate not having them.

You cannot have a debate with one point of view.

Skeptics are important in that they keep us honest, grounded and on our toes.

I respect and welcome most of the skeptics on this site, the ones that debate intelligently and prove their points with solid evidence.

Of course there are those that are just out to cause trouble, rile up believers and make waves, these I just ignore. "

Without skeptics and debunkers CT hasn't a chance of being respectable, Skeptics and debunkers are an integral component of CT, we need them to make sure we do thorough research, I respect them (the ones that are out to get to the truth). I dislike debunkers with agendas, as I dislike CTists with agendas, the truth is the goal, IMO.

It's when debunkers are in it for the fun of poking us with a stick that they are undesirable, then you just have to learn to ignore them!

In my opinion, in general, debunkers and skeptics are welcome on ATS!

All the best, KF



[edit on 8-2-2010 by kiwifoot]

reply to post by mmiichael


Well said, responded right before you did... but well agree with your point.

Originally posted by mmiichael
I've watched as a number of the more knowledgeable members have withdrawn or been banned. A pattern emerges.

It started getting heavy when Israel went into Gaza last year. Commonly someone tries to confront the torrent of antisemitism that floods the site with baseless malign reports on Israeli activities, attempts to claim Mossad was responsible for 9/11, etc.

A lynch mob of alerted regulars show up on the thread with their links to Neo-Nazi site analysis and Pallywood industry videos.

The discussion becomes inflammatory and the inevitable "Jews run the world" rhetoric becomes overwhelming.

Someone gets really angry and lashes out - and gets banned. Then it starts anew on another thread.

This happens on the 9/11 forum but within somewhat different parameters.

I'd say the lunatics have taken over the asylum. The barbarians have brought down the gates. The Internet trolls have won due to their vast numbers and persistence.

Those of us trying to being enlightenment and discussion are now like the isolate monks in the Dark Ages.

Maybe an overreactive melodramatization on my part, but how I feel these days on this site.


M





[edit on 8-2-2010 by mmiichael]

Well said, as usual.
Yes, this is cyberterrorism that brings good-intended forums down. Once a moderator infiltrates the mix then the banning become routine... I've seen it many times. It's like rat infestation.

Hello,
This is a good thread!
I've caught myself being closed-minded on several topics, didn't want to hear any truths being presented, if they weren't the truths I had accepted. What a fool of me! Without the skeptics, my learning process would cease. The whole point in me coming here to ATS is to learn. My biggest lesson is quite humbling; As good as I can put thoughts together in my head, my ability to present them to others is quite trouble-some. Only typing maybe 20 words per minute doesn't help matters either. I just wonder how long I will be here as a simple student before I can mature into a grand teacher, like many on this site are. Kudos to you wise individuals. Keep up the excellent work of denying ignorance, and continue helping guys like me not lose sight of reality.

reply to post by defcon5


So, being a perennial skeptic myself, I have to ask...

What the hell happened? Some days, ATS makes 4chan look like a beacon of enlightenment

reply to post by mmiichael


Just gotta point out to you man... the Israelis sure weren't throwing candy and kittens at Gaza. To blanket label everything posted in defense of the Gazans as antisemitic or "pallywood" (Palestine, famed home of special effects and CGI masters!) is pretty ignorant. Granted there's some whack crap that got posted, but to lump it all together?

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
reply to post by mmiichael

 

Just gotta point out to you man... the Israelis sure weren't throwing candy and kittens at Gaza. To blanket label everything posted in defense of the Gazans as antisemitic or "pallywood" (Palestine, famed home of special effects and CGI masters!) is pretty ignorant. Granted there's some whack crap that got posted, but to lump it all together?

I don't remember how many thousands rockets and missiles were sent at civilian targets into Israel or how many people were killed or injured. A good percentage even during periods when Hamas had agreed to a ceasfire.

It is now a matter o public knowledge Iran was not only funding Hamas, but also supplying weaponry and training. There was an elite Revolutionary Guard legion right in Gaza.

The whole Gaza conflict is now understood better as an Iranian provoked proxy war with Israel, even possibly a dry run.

Despite the rhetoric of malign Israel unjustly attacking an innocent stone-throwing Gazans the emerged details tell the story. Israel did it's best to avoid civilian casualties even though Hamas militants refused to identify themselves with uniforms and later grossly inflated civilian death numbers. The fact that Israel withdrew when it had the upper hand instead of inflicting even more severe infrastructural destruction and inevitable losses of life is also telling.


[edit on 9-2-2010 by mmiichael]

Another predictable thread discussing the same thing as last week's similarly titled thread...

A quick ATS Search (google box top right!)..."Skeptics Debunkers"...

Well looky, looky! Only a hundred other versions of this one!

It's great posting threads and we all want ours to be successful. One of mine received no posts, no stars, no nothing! Served me right for posting rubbish. So c'mon...let's try and ask ourselves if we need threads like this every couple of weeks? Every couple of months? Definitely!

I never even noticed this star, flag, points rating system till I kept seeing references to it. Notably the people who start threads with titles like "Zionist Nazi UFO atrocities" get the most stars and points and follow-up. Maybe an inherent problem with the site. It's like a Tabloid Journal gone wild. The more outrageous the headline the bigger the audience.

Notably so-called skeptics and debunkers get few stars.

Kind o reinforces the observation this site works for some more like a video game rather than information exchange forum.

The further you get away from facts the more rewarded you are.

Do skeptics and debunkers belong in a conspiracy website?

Of course they do!!!

Without skeptics we wouldn't have any way of separating the hoaxes from the real conspiracies...we'd have people making up crap left, right and center, and we'd all believe it...just thank the skeptics for your disbelief in the boogie man...

EDIT: It's the hardcore skeptics who lack even a slightly open mind, and their only goal is to discredit every conspiracy under the Sun, arguing that everything has a "mundane" explanation, and they use invalid logic and sneaky work play to do this...they DON'T belong on a conspiracy website...

EDIT: Even I am skeptical of everything I read...I need evidence and facts which produce logical arguments and make sense to me...I'm fairly good at pulling truth from all the lies...that's how a real conspiracy theorist goes about things...

[edit on 9/2/10 by CHA0S]

Yes.

I may believe in being open-minded...but not so open that ones brain falls out...

reply to post by SaturnFX


well - unless a person is prepared to believe EVERYTHING and i do mean everything - then they are skeptics too

a relevant example is the 9/11 " no planes " argument with out addressing any merits or demerits of any assertion - its clear just reading the boards / threads that a large section of ATS believes various consiracies that involved all 4 planes being real - then diverging into various remote controled planes , brainwashed hijackers , 1 plane shot down by the USAF etc etc conspiracies

all those people have rejected the no planes assertion - thus are skeptics

also as many conspiracies on ATS are actually mutually exclusive - ie if one is true others must be false - then you HAVE to be skeptical

reply to post by mmiichael


Let's see, shall we? The following is a list of years, with the corresponding number of fatalities in Israel from rocket attacks.

2001 1 person died
2004 5 people died
2005 6 people died
2006 4 people died
2007 2 people died
2008 8 people died

Total: 26 people died (28 according to some sources).

During the Gaza war, Israel itself admitted to killing 295 civilians. Between 1,166 and 1,417 Palestinians, and 13 Israelis, were killed. 400,000 Gazans had no access to running water, and over 4,000 homes were destroyed. To expect fighters to wear uniforms is plain retarded. I shouldn't even have to explain why to you. If you need help in figuring that out, I will.

I'm not defending anyone who kills civilians, but to pretend that somehow Israel is the good guy here is ridiculous. He who has the power has the power to stop this madness.

Absolutely they belong here - for all the reasons, already mentioned.

This place would not be as successful as it is without the dichotomy. For forums like this, you need to create interest. Agreement is boring (100% of the time). Controversy is where it's at.

reply to post by davesidious


all those stats demonstrate is that " war is hell " - hamas / hezbolla could stop anythime - and the isreali RETALIATION would cease too - they are inviting attack - why ?

Originally posted by mmiichael
I don't remember how many thousands rockets and missiles were sent at civilian targets into Israel or how many people were killed or injured. A good percentage even during periods when Hamas had agreed to a ceasfire.

If you don't reember, then you should look it up. Arguing from a position of ignorance does your position no good.

Further, rocket attacks from Gaza were on a steady decrease during the Hamas ceasefire, as Hamas was cracking down like a ton of bricks on individuals and rival organizations conducting them. The month before the Israelis launched their operation, there was one, one rocket fired from Gaza. it exploded in a field and presumably hurt some wheat or something

It is now a matter o public knowledge Iran was not only funding Hamas, but also supplying weaponry and training. There was an elite Revolutionary Guard legion right in Gaza.

I think you're getting Hamas mixed up with Hizbollah. And citing "public knowledge" is using weasel words. Source this, please.

The whole Gaza conflict is now understood better as an Iranian provoked proxy war with Israel, even possibly a dry run.

Iranian-provoked? Iran controls Israel? They broke the cease-fire, after all.

Despite the rhetoric of malign Israel unjustly attacking an innocent stone-throwing Gazans the emerged details tell the story. Israel did it's best to avoid civilian casualties even though Hamas militants refused to identify themselves with uniforms and later grossly inflated civilian death numbers. The fact that Israel withdrew when it had the upper hand instead of inflicting even more severe infrastructural destruction and inevitable losses of life is also telling.

When all else fails, cram as much propaganda into a single paragraph as possible, in the hopes of overwhelming your opponent.

1) Israel's best at avoiding civilian casualties is still piss-poor considering it was a conflict they started, considering they purposefully targeted civilian infrastructure, and still ended up killing a whole mess of civilians.

2) Hamas actually does dress in uniform. It's not a full military dress, but htye have a system of clothing that identifies them. Sort of like gang colors and whatnot. However let me pose a scenario to you. If Russian troops rolled into your neighborhood tomorrow, would you be greeting them with flowers, or with firepower? Not everyone taking shots at the israelis were Hamas - a lot of people were simply patriots defending their homes, their families, and what bits of a country they have from an aggressive, invading force. if they were white, you would be calling them heroes.

3) Israeli forces withdrew out of worry of a potential American backlash from a new administration (in hindsight, they didn't have that much to worry about, I suppose). The notion you're presenting however, that Israel should be praised for not doing as much damage as it conceivably could, completely misses the point of how much damage WAS done, and every ounce of it needlessly and in violation of international law.

For those who may think this is off topic... Please consider mmiichael as a wonderful example of exactly WHY there need to be skeptics, debunkers, and informed informers on this board.

i agree maybe when the board was starting out the skeptics and debunkers were great

but i must admit, there are many threads now, where they are just overpowered by those with extremely passionate opinions

its one thing to have passionate opinions, its another to state the same thing in every type of alien thread, just as an example, often times it seems we could have a straight up legit alien encounter in high def right in front of the white house, and there will still be a bunch of people with no experience on the situation stating opinions as facts and arguing it to the death defying all logic


it has seemed to get worse as the site grew, i have been a member for a while, but a reader for much longer

possibly, as the site grew, it just attracted more of a certain type

but in other circumstances, reading certain things on here, i more and more accept the idea of individuals being paid to come on here and spread bs

part of me believes that because it makes sense

the other part of me wants to believe that solely for the fact that i wish to deny a human being could be that way realistically

reply to post by ignorant_ape


Because they are being occupied, and don't like that one bit?

reply to post by SaturnFX

The question is are you secure enough in yourself to listen to those who disagree with you and then to seriously consider their argument...and change your opinion if proved wrong...

Or are you so insecure that you cannot tolerate any other opinion but your own?

IF this is to be a serious discussion forum then it needs skeptics and naysayers by the dozen...if not then this place is little more than entertainment.