Believe it or not ATS was originally more of a skeptic site then a conspiracy one, back when it started. Why do you think that we had the tag “Deny
Ignorance” and a guy named “Skeptic Overlord” as our board admin? It was all about looking for real conspiracies, and cutting through the BS
ones.
Do skeptics and debunkers belong in a conspiracy website?, page 1
privacy
reply posted on 8-2-2010 @ 09:45 AM by BAZ752
reply to post by SaturnFX
Interesting and fair point. However, as most CT's tend to have very similar psychological patterns of thought, especially the more obvious traits picked up in the structure of their language, are they, themselves not the 'sceptics' by their own merit for considering what they perceive as the conspiracy theory?
I'm not trying to pick holes in your query here. I'm merely pointing out that CT's themselves in some way, shape or form and by very purpose alone, are sceptical.
So, in answer to your question, yes, they should.
[edit on 8-2-2010 by BAZ752]
Interesting and fair point. However, as most CT's tend to have very similar psychological patterns of thought, especially the more obvious traits picked up in the structure of their language, are they, themselves not the 'sceptics' by their own merit for considering what they perceive as the conspiracy theory?
I'm not trying to pick holes in your query here. I'm merely pointing out that CT's themselves in some way, shape or form and by very purpose alone, are sceptical.
So, in answer to your question, yes, they should.
[edit on 8-2-2010 by BAZ752]
reply posted on 8-2-2010 @ 09:48 AM by SaturnFX
reply to post by BAZ752
Oh, I agree with that...conspiracy theories in its own nature is a statement of skepticism to begin with...and theoretically one capable of being skeptical should also welcome other skeptics both for and against their concept.
hmm, whats the difference between skepticism and speculation of alternative theories.
Oh, I agree with that...conspiracy theories in its own nature is a statement of skepticism to begin with...and theoretically one capable of being skeptical should also welcome other skeptics both for and against their concept.
hmm, whats the difference between skepticism and speculation of alternative theories.
reply posted on 8-2-2010 @ 09:50 AM by NichirasuKenshin
reply to post by defcon5
I'll have to second what you say. Darn it, I'll even third it.
I couldn't say it better. The only way to get to the beef is by cutting out and tossing away the BS. Some may prefer astral projection or channeling to do so, others, like the debunkers tend to rely on critical thinking - a tool open to and veryfiable by everyone. One can be a critical thinker and still think "outside of the box".
A place where we discard all critical thinking would be a place of absolute relativity and that would quickly devolve into a contest on who can pull the most ridiculous BS withouth standing behind it.
There are plenty of places like that on the internet already - intellect free zones where everyone can claim what he wants withouth having to answer for it.
To me, what has always been the attraction of this site were these 2 words:
deny ignorance.
Help me deny my ignorance, I'll help you deny yours.
Together we can be less ignorant.
edited for a logical blunder...
edited to add: Come to think of it, ATS has forums where anyone can claim anything without being called out.. Skunk Works etc. Much of the time it is a question of wording, some people are fond of sensationalist, wide claims others like it narrow, precise and framed in a conditional sense.
[edit on 8-2-2010 by NichirasuKenshin]
[edit on 8-2-2010 by NichirasuKenshin]
I'll have to second what you say. Darn it, I'll even third it.
I couldn't say it better. The only way to get to the beef is by cutting out and tossing away the BS. Some may prefer astral projection or channeling to do so, others, like the debunkers tend to rely on critical thinking - a tool open to and veryfiable by everyone. One can be a critical thinker and still think "outside of the box".
A place where we discard all critical thinking would be a place of absolute relativity and that would quickly devolve into a contest on who can pull the most ridiculous BS withouth standing behind it.
There are plenty of places like that on the internet already - intellect free zones where everyone can claim what he wants withouth having to answer for it.
To me, what has always been the attraction of this site were these 2 words:
deny ignorance.
Help me deny my ignorance, I'll help you deny yours.
Together we can be less ignorant.
edited for a logical blunder...
edited to add: Come to think of it, ATS has forums where anyone can claim anything without being called out.. Skunk Works etc. Much of the time it is a question of wording, some people are fond of sensationalist, wide claims others like it narrow, precise and framed in a conditional sense.
[edit on 8-2-2010 by NichirasuKenshin]
[edit on 8-2-2010 by NichirasuKenshin]
reply posted on 8-2-2010 @ 09:59 AM by BAZ752
reply to post by SaturnFX
Honestly? I could answer that in many different ways. The only notable difference to me among the many varied characters, particularly the educated lot in here, are the perceptions of the subject at hand.
Some will use the basis of gained knowledge to form an opinion while others refer to material commonly presented and researched, or even the lowest common denominator in some cases.
Either way, the difinitives stem from closed-mindedness or open-mindedness. It's like a spectrum. This is only my opinion, but does that help?
[edit on 8-2-2010 by BAZ752]
Honestly? I could answer that in many different ways. The only notable difference to me among the many varied characters, particularly the educated lot in here, are the perceptions of the subject at hand.
Some will use the basis of gained knowledge to form an opinion while others refer to material commonly presented and researched, or even the lowest common denominator in some cases.
Either way, the difinitives stem from closed-mindedness or open-mindedness. It's like a spectrum. This is only my opinion, but does that help?
[edit on 8-2-2010 by BAZ752]
reply posted on 8-2-2010 @ 10:05 AM by defcon5
reply to post by SaturnFX
We had quite a few members like phage in the old days, I learned a lot for them. Many seem to have gone from the site though, either on their own or through banning. When ATS went corporate, I think that they tried to make the site more friendly to folks with wild theories, and your hardcore skeptics started to get in trouble for belittling those theories as was done in the old days. Back then ATS was the more intelligent, adult version of places like GLP or Renese, where folks would come to learn the truth on what they read on those sites. However, Its the same story with a lot of businesses, they become popular, and they change the formula that made them popular in an attempt to become more popular, which inevitably backfires. For example back in the day, SO was very skeptical of the 911 truth movement, now he remains neutral on the topic, and its one of the most strictly moderated forums at ATS. I would venture to say that a lot of our best skeptics got banned just from that forum alone. So what you are seeing is not that a conspiracy site became filled with skeptics, but that a skeptic site is trying to become more conspiracy friendly.
We had quite a few members like phage in the old days, I learned a lot for them. Many seem to have gone from the site though, either on their own or through banning. When ATS went corporate, I think that they tried to make the site more friendly to folks with wild theories, and your hardcore skeptics started to get in trouble for belittling those theories as was done in the old days. Back then ATS was the more intelligent, adult version of places like GLP or Renese, where folks would come to learn the truth on what they read on those sites. However, Its the same story with a lot of businesses, they become popular, and they change the formula that made them popular in an attempt to become more popular, which inevitably backfires. For example back in the day, SO was very skeptical of the 911 truth movement, now he remains neutral on the topic, and its one of the most strictly moderated forums at ATS. I would venture to say that a lot of our best skeptics got banned just from that forum alone. So what you are seeing is not that a conspiracy site became filled with skeptics, but that a skeptic site is trying to become more conspiracy friendly.
reply posted on 8-2-2010 @ 10:06 AM by davesidious
reply to post by SaturnFX
Damn straight we do. A conspiracy theory must be able to stand up to any amount of scepticism, otherwise it is simply not substantiated enough for any rational individual to believe.
Considering the topics we deal with on this board, and the wide-reaching effects should they be true, the amount of evidence must be beyond reproach. People laugh at conspiracy theorists because they simply don't have levels of acceptable evidence compared to any other actual investigatory discipline out there.
reply to post by BAZ752
There's being sceptical for no reason, and then there's being sceptical through lack of evidence. The former is who you describe, and the latter is what SaturnFX and myself are describing - please correct me if I'm wrong, SaturnFX.
reply to post by Maddogkull
Those boards should, in an ideal world, be very very empty. It's a sad condemnation of some members of this site that those boards are so highly used. They are full of absolute nonsense, with a few sceptics trying to wade in and remind everyone they are engaging in massive logical fallacies by discussing things that have yet to be demonstrated as existing, let alone paranormal/extraterrestrial/demonic/whatever. Try doing that, though, and you get shot down. Personally, I think those boards should be moderated into the ground - any posts containing assertions of fact unsubstantiated by evidence should be frozen or deleted. It reflects so very badly on the rest of us that a site that says "deny ignorance" in big letters at the top has a place where people can discuss what sort of demon is hiding in their sock drawer with complete immunity from being warned/banned for spreading nonsense. It's, well, pathetic. It's like kids playing "Supernatural", "Harry Potter", or "Twilight" in the school yard. Critical thinking is simply not welcome there. They are the antithesis of the rest of the site.
I could bang on about this for hours, but I'll spare everyone. It's pretty clear that I respect critical thought and critical thought only. Everything else can go jump off a cliff.
Damn straight we do. A conspiracy theory must be able to stand up to any amount of scepticism, otherwise it is simply not substantiated enough for any rational individual to believe.
Considering the topics we deal with on this board, and the wide-reaching effects should they be true, the amount of evidence must be beyond reproach. People laugh at conspiracy theorists because they simply don't have levels of acceptable evidence compared to any other actual investigatory discipline out there.
reply to post by BAZ752
There's being sceptical for no reason, and then there's being sceptical through lack of evidence. The former is who you describe, and the latter is what SaturnFX and myself are describing - please correct me if I'm wrong, SaturnFX.
reply to post by Maddogkull
Those boards should, in an ideal world, be very very empty. It's a sad condemnation of some members of this site that those boards are so highly used. They are full of absolute nonsense, with a few sceptics trying to wade in and remind everyone they are engaging in massive logical fallacies by discussing things that have yet to be demonstrated as existing, let alone paranormal/extraterrestrial/demonic/whatever. Try doing that, though, and you get shot down. Personally, I think those boards should be moderated into the ground - any posts containing assertions of fact unsubstantiated by evidence should be frozen or deleted. It reflects so very badly on the rest of us that a site that says "deny ignorance" in big letters at the top has a place where people can discuss what sort of demon is hiding in their sock drawer with complete immunity from being warned/banned for spreading nonsense. It's, well, pathetic. It's like kids playing "Supernatural", "Harry Potter", or "Twilight" in the school yard. Critical thinking is simply not welcome there. They are the antithesis of the rest of the site.
I could bang on about this for hours, but I'll spare everyone. It's pretty clear that I respect critical thought and critical thought only. Everything else can go jump off a cliff.
reply posted on 8-2-2010 @ 10:11 AM by gwydionblack
reply to post by SaturnFX
I agree with you on most points, and most of the responses in this thread. Skepticism is what makes conspiracy theories possible to begin with. I know that I personally welcome all criticism to any of my posts but instead I seem to instill general ignorance.
The only problem I have with skepticism is when it becomes habit forming and takes precedence over someones logic. Someone who might have spent all their life debunking UFOs might feel threatened by something they can't readily explain. So instead of providing their unbiased insight they will look to maintain their image, even if it does mean trying to debunk something they are unsure of or have no evidence against. I believe that this is happening more and more with the more people that come to ATS.
Skeptics are good, but just like people who believe first and question later, there is a fine line between skepticism and flat out ignorance, something that all people should be well aware of. Some people would much rather trust in the words of someone known and reliable than do the research themselves, but honestly, that isn't how it should be.
As long as people learn to balance out the skepticism and beliefs, no harm can be done. It is when one person leads fanatically to one side that problems start to arise, and I question as to if they can ever truly be brought back to the middle ground.
I agree with you on most points, and most of the responses in this thread. Skepticism is what makes conspiracy theories possible to begin with. I know that I personally welcome all criticism to any of my posts but instead I seem to instill general ignorance.
The only problem I have with skepticism is when it becomes habit forming and takes precedence over someones logic. Someone who might have spent all their life debunking UFOs might feel threatened by something they can't readily explain. So instead of providing their unbiased insight they will look to maintain their image, even if it does mean trying to debunk something they are unsure of or have no evidence against. I believe that this is happening more and more with the more people that come to ATS.
Skeptics are good, but just like people who believe first and question later, there is a fine line between skepticism and flat out ignorance, something that all people should be well aware of. Some people would much rather trust in the words of someone known and reliable than do the research themselves, but honestly, that isn't how it should be.
As long as people learn to balance out the skepticism and beliefs, no harm can be done. It is when one person leads fanatically to one side that problems start to arise, and I question as to if they can ever truly be brought back to the middle ground.
reply posted on 8-2-2010 @ 10:13 AM by BAZ752
reply to post by davesidious
I couldn't agree with you more. I did point out that I could have answered the OP in a number of ways, but for time sake I generalised, perhaps a little too brief of me
I couldn't agree with you more. I did point out that I could have answered the OP in a number of ways, but for time sake I generalised, perhaps a little too brief of me
reply posted on 8-2-2010 @ 10:27 AM by Maddogkull
reply to post by davesidious
In an ideal world be very empty
I do agree that there are so absurd threads on there talking about different density levels. But if you
search it with an opened mind I guarantee you, you will find something amusing. But if are a hardcore sceptic that believes in nothing after death,
of course that thread doesn’t appeal to you, and thats fine. But you can’t say it has little importance, I think you have the wrong idea. A lot
of the visitors of ATS came to this forum for the metaphysics, not all but some. Also UFO's there are a lot of evidence for them. I didn’t say
ET UFO's, but to deny UFOs is really just ignorant. There is enough evidence for them. BTW what is your ideal world? Does it resemble the movie
equilibrium?
In an ideal world be very empty
I do agree that there are so absurd threads on there talking about different density levels. But if you
search it with an opened mind I guarantee you, you will find something amusing. But if are a hardcore sceptic that believes in nothing after death,
of course that thread doesn’t appeal to you, and thats fine. But you can’t say it has little importance, I think you have the wrong idea. A lot
of the visitors of ATS came to this forum for the metaphysics, not all but some. Also UFO's there are a lot of evidence for them. I didn’t say
ET UFO's, but to deny UFOs is really just ignorant. There is enough evidence for them. BTW what is your ideal world? Does it resemble the movie
equilibrium? 
reply posted on 8-2-2010 @ 10:44 AM by davesidious
reply to post by muzzleflash
I'd go one step further and say critical thinking is the only way to actually know. We might guess the right answer to something, but we'd never be sure we were right. Critical thinking is the only way to know anything for sure.
reply to post by Maddogkull
If we are here to deny ignorance, we can not accept guesswork as fact. That is a logical fallacy. It's not about importance, but evidence. Just because something is really important to people doesn't instantly elevate it to the status of fact. That is the height of ignorance.
We can talk UFOs all we want. We can analyse photographs, look at radar traces, read reports from the field, declassified materials, etc. without issue. That is critical thinking. But to leap to the conclusion that a particular UFO is extraterrestrial in origin, and under intelligent control, is not engaging in critical thinking, but wild speculation. That is what we should avoid in that board. Of course there is evidence that unidentified flying objects have existed. I never once said anything to the contrary.
But yeah, 'metaphysics' is just a pseudoscientific term for "wild guesswork", so I don't know why that board is even on ATS, as it can, by its very definition, never uncover an actual demonstrable truth.
Being "open minded" doesn't help anyone if the mind in question is ill-equipped to differentiate between opinion and fact, which seems to be the bread and butter of the paranormal board, for example.
My ideal world would not be like equilibrium at all. I love art in most of its forms, and require it on a daily basis. I refuse, however, to let someone acting irrationally try to teach me something that should be taught using critical thinking. I wouldn't go to a doctor whose idea of healing was to throw packs of frozen peas at me to satiate the pea demon that causes all human suffering, no matter how important it was to that "doctor" to believe, or how amusing the concept is to some open-minded people.
If we really are here to deny ignorance, then there needs to be a massive culling of the cruft common throughout this site. It's embarrassing, and only serves to damage the credibility of anyone who actually manages to find evidence for a real conspiracy (as detractors, operating irrationally, can point to the myriad threads about Bigfoot's favourite sandwich in order to tar them with the crazy brush). Oh, and it serves to get page impressions, which means more money from advertisers.
Denying ignorance is not as profitable as claiming to, while actually encouraging it. There are more ignorant people out there than critical thinkers, and advertisers pay the same for adverts served to both. You can do the maths here Sorry if that contravenes the Terms and Conditions,
mods - feel free to trim that last bit out if it does (but please leave the rest).
I'd go one step further and say critical thinking is the only way to actually know. We might guess the right answer to something, but we'd never be sure we were right. Critical thinking is the only way to know anything for sure.
reply to post by Maddogkull
If we are here to deny ignorance, we can not accept guesswork as fact. That is a logical fallacy. It's not about importance, but evidence. Just because something is really important to people doesn't instantly elevate it to the status of fact. That is the height of ignorance.
We can talk UFOs all we want. We can analyse photographs, look at radar traces, read reports from the field, declassified materials, etc. without issue. That is critical thinking. But to leap to the conclusion that a particular UFO is extraterrestrial in origin, and under intelligent control, is not engaging in critical thinking, but wild speculation. That is what we should avoid in that board. Of course there is evidence that unidentified flying objects have existed. I never once said anything to the contrary.
But yeah, 'metaphysics' is just a pseudoscientific term for "wild guesswork", so I don't know why that board is even on ATS, as it can, by its very definition, never uncover an actual demonstrable truth.
Being "open minded" doesn't help anyone if the mind in question is ill-equipped to differentiate between opinion and fact, which seems to be the bread and butter of the paranormal board, for example.
My ideal world would not be like equilibrium at all. I love art in most of its forms, and require it on a daily basis. I refuse, however, to let someone acting irrationally try to teach me something that should be taught using critical thinking. I wouldn't go to a doctor whose idea of healing was to throw packs of frozen peas at me to satiate the pea demon that causes all human suffering, no matter how important it was to that "doctor" to believe, or how amusing the concept is to some open-minded people.
If we really are here to deny ignorance, then there needs to be a massive culling of the cruft common throughout this site. It's embarrassing, and only serves to damage the credibility of anyone who actually manages to find evidence for a real conspiracy (as detractors, operating irrationally, can point to the myriad threads about Bigfoot's favourite sandwich in order to tar them with the crazy brush). Oh, and it serves to get page impressions, which means more money from advertisers.
Denying ignorance is not as profitable as claiming to, while actually encouraging it. There are more ignorant people out there than critical thinkers, and advertisers pay the same for adverts served to both. You can do the maths here
Sorry if that contravenes the Terms and Conditions,
mods - feel free to trim that last bit out if it does (but please leave the rest).reply posted on 8-2-2010 @ 10:48 AM by seagull
reply to post by SaturnFX
Indeed skeptics do belong here. Even putting aside the denial of ignorance, how much fun would we be having if we all agreed on everything? I've been to boards where that is exactly what happens, and it's boring as all get out.
Every issue, whether I agree with it or not, has two sides, maybe even more. This is how truth is arrived at, through examination of all sides of an issue.
Yes, skeptics belong here. Wouldn't be ATS without 'em.
Indeed skeptics do belong here. Even putting aside the denial of ignorance, how much fun would we be having if we all agreed on everything? I've been to boards where that is exactly what happens, and it's boring as all get out.
Every issue, whether I agree with it or not, has two sides, maybe even more. This is how truth is arrived at, through examination of all sides of an issue.
Yes, skeptics belong here. Wouldn't be ATS without 'em.
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