Air Force Christians To Be Persecuted For Hate Crime?

reply to post by Kernoonos


Well I will pray for the fight in your area as well as mine

But in case you didn't hear, I am not a Wiccan...tis was deduced by how I type :-p

Blessed be to you as well

((PS I sent you a message))

-Kyo

Originally posted by LibertyLover
reply to post by Violater1

 

Of course it was a hate crime. Fundy Christians hate other religious groups, especially any that don't bow down to their particular version of God. They get particularly exercised about Pagans of any stripe. They really don't believe in freedom of religion or that people should be allowed to worship, or not, as they like. Leaving a cross within the stone cirlce intended for pagan worshippers was a deliberate action and intended to cause offense and disquiet to the pagan community at the Air Force Academy. That's a hate crime. If the persons who carried out this act are cadets and/or Air Force personnel, they should be subject to whatever punishment is meted out to service members who transgress the honor code. If that is a court marshal offense, then ok. If the people were civilians in the employ of the Air Force or civilians from the community, then they should be prosecuted at the federal level for a hate crime. I'm unpersuaded that it might be a witnessing attempt. Pagans know about Christianity for goodness sake and aren't interested in it.

Wow. So are you anti-Christian or just anti-religious in general? It sounds like you got some serious hate problems. I believe your post is hateful, and should be considered a hate crime, even libel, against Christians in general.
Other than that, I don't think what they did was a big deal. Like making a prank phone call. Maybe they were getting back at them for something else that was done that we don't know about, because it would be not be PC to talk about someone other than Christians.

reply to post by sr_robert1


Interesting point you bring up...so let me throw this out

You do make a fine point that perhaps the Pagans di something first. We may never know...but my question is aren't Christians supposed to forgive and forget instead of exacting revenge on their own?

Now before you get upset I feel the same about the Pagans. I pray none of them take revenge

-Kyo

It's stupid to argue if this was a hate crime or not. Every crime that hurts another person is a "hate crime". It has nothing to with skin colour, nationality, religious beliefs or anything else. Every Crime is a Hatecrime. Period.

Originally posted by December_Rain

- Whoever placed the cross at Pagan's site should be charged under hate crime.

- ...intentionally should be considered a hate crime if not already.

- No one should be immune to law and everyone should be treated equally under the law.

Oddly enough, you defeated your own point with that last sentence. How could folks possibly be treated equally under the law if "hate crime" legislation remains on the books and is enforced?

You can't.

It will be interesting to see the outcome of the investigation.
I also found it interesting that Mikey seems to know a little more than he is letting on. Could the Air Force be getting setup?
Mikey Weinstein of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation. Mikey went on to state, “We don't think, we know it was a hate crime.”
HMMMM

reply to post by KrazyJethro


No I did not contradict anything. Noone should be immune to due process of law and treated equally under it. If hate crimes law is there and a Christian commits a act of hate crime he/she should be prosecuted same goes for Pagan, Islam, Judiasm, Athetist etc. Being part of a particular sect. or religion does not mean one can be above law.

I do not agree with people who are saying it's just a stick or wood or probably a prank. It's clearly a hate crime.

I do not agree with the hate crime laws, per se, but if we must have such a law, then it should apply to all, that is how a Republic works. Actually, the cross was a Pagan symbol way before Christians took it for themselves, so in a metaphorical way, were they not bringing the two together? What matters religion anyway, and why do religious people try to force their way on others? Some would say if Jesus were alive today, he would be a Wiccan, after all, he turned water to wine, raised the dead, walked on water, created food my magick.....He also dressed in robes and wore sandals, quite Hippy like, if you ask me. He wouldn't be caught dead in the suit most Christians wear. And BTW, he never promised to come and save anyone either. And he never once said he was God. Jesus would be quite welcome in my circle.

Originally posted by December_Rain
No I did not contradict anything. No one should be immune to due process of law and treated equally under it. If hate crimes law is there and a Christian commits a act of hate crime he/she should be prosecuted same goes for Pagan, Islam, Judiasm, Athetist etc. Being part of a particular sect. or religion does not mean one can be above law.

I do not agree with people who are saying it's just a stick or wood or probably a prank. It's clearly a hate crime.

I understand your point, but I was saying that the hate crime legislation itself is in opposition to the premise "No one should be immune to due process of law and treated equally under it"

I know they are there, but not condemning them each and every time they try to apply, lends itself to supporting inequality by proxy.

[edit on 6-2-2010 by KrazyJethro]

Originally posted by Klavier
It's stupid to argue if this was a hate crime or not. Every crime that hurts another person is a "hate crime". It has nothing to with skin colour, nationality, religious beliefs or anything else. Every Crime is a Hatecrime. Period.

I agree, but isn't prostitution a "love crime" and not a "hate crime"?

Originally posted by autowrench
I do not agree with the hate crime laws, per se, but if we must have such a law, then it should apply to all, that is how a Republic works. Actually, the cross was a Pagan symbol way before Christians took it for themselves, so in a metaphorical way, were they not bringing the two together? What matters religion anyway, and why do religious people try to force their way on others? Some would say if Jesus were alive today, he would be a Wiccan, after all, he turned water to wine, raised the dead, walked on water, created food my magick.....He also dressed in robes and wore sandals, quite Hippy like, if you ask me. He wouldn't be caught dead in the suit most Christians wear. And BTW, he never promised to come and save anyone either. And he never once said he was God. Jesus would be quite welcome in my circle.

I'm surprised blasphemy isn't considered a hate crime, by those who believe in hate crimes.

Wow, I wasn't gonna comment on this one but here goes. As a Witch (not Wiccan). I don't see this as a hate crime. Ignorant, yes.....childish, yes, but a hate crime no. These sorts of things happen no matter the religion, as an aside I see my beliefs more as a way of life and less as a religion. However, there was no threat, just a somewhat immature act, perpetrated by who? There is no proof as to who did it, or for what reason. We can deduce it may have been disrespectful, childish, and even in bad taste, however, we cannot deduce it was from hate. There are far more important things happening in the world today to worry about. No harm, no foul.......just let it go.

Originally posted by KyoZero
reply to post by sr_robert1

 

Interesting point you bring up...so let me throw this out

You do make a fine point that perhaps the Pagans di something first. We may never know...but my question is aren't Christians supposed to forgive and forget instead of exacting revenge on their own?

Now before you get upset I feel the same about the Pagans. I pray none of them take revenge

-Kyo

I don't believe in any religion stuff, so I'm not upset by anything in those regards. But, what does upset me is all the one-sided junk. The same people that will bash Christians to hell are the same ones who will jump on somebody when they bash a different religion (same with cultures/races/etc).

Even without having all the mention, I'd be inclined to think it was nothing more than a prank or getting back at the group. If the second, then that would make this Pagan group another type of people I absolutely hate. The kind that can dish it out but can't/refuses to take it.

To the forgive and forget piece, no one is above humanity. Everybody is human, so no matter what people say they believe or ought to do, doesn't mean they're going to do it.

[edit on 7-2-2010 by sr_robert1]

Originally posted by KrazyJethro

Originally posted by muzzleflash
There is NO SUCH THING as a "Hate Crime"!!!

I have to agree. Considering the premise behind "hate crimes" is foolish and at odds with equal protection, this can not be a "hate crime".

I agree too, but until the fools who make foolish laws are subjected to their own foolishness, these laws will remain on the books. So I say prosecute to the fullest extent of the legal injustice system!

We should also use hate crime laws against those who defame Islam and Muslims, particularly dual-citizen anti-Arab racists who live in segregated communities in Israel part of the year. Arrest and jail them as soon as they get off the airplane here in the USA. Zero tolerance for anti-Arabism and Palestinian apartheid!

[edit on 7-2-2010 by Crito]

reply to post by muzzleflash


I suggest you look up what makes a hate crime different from a "regular" crime. It may surprise you, but there IS an actual, technical, and useful difference.

lemme put it this way... If i beat up Abe Braunsteen because he talked about my mom, then my problem is with Abe Braunsteen, I'm not going to be attacking someone else, and i'm guilty of assault and battery.

if I beat up Abe Braunsteen because he's a jew, however, then my problem is with him, his family, his neighbors, and any other jews, who are all equally likely to be targets of my assault. The danger I present to a community rather than an individual is why I would be presented with hate crime charges on top of the assault and battery charges.

Originally posted by Crito
I agree too, but until the fools who make foolish laws are subjected to their own foolishness, these laws will remain on the books. So I say prosecute to the fullest extent of the legal injustice system!

I think in the attempt to catch those who write these laws in a web, it would have to be a big one. One which would ensnare quite a lot of normal Americans unjustly.

This seems terribly wasteful and not a serious solution.

We should also use hate crime laws against those who defame Islam and Muslims, particularly dual-citizen anti-Arab racists who live in segregated communities in Israel part of the year. Arrest and jail them as soon as they get off the airplane here in the USA. Zero tolerance for anti-Arabism and Palestinian apartheid!

Hmm, can't follow you here. This seems really extreme and totally unreasonable.

It would be better to simply rail against the entire system of injustice.

After all, if they changed the laws after learning they would be snared by it, the ultimate reasons behind it's removal wouldn't be accepted and would detract greatly from the legitimacy of our case.

Are you kidding me? O_O

Some Christians supposedly placed a large bit of wood representing a cross on a pile of rocks representing some significance in another faith is not an issue for concern. Move the wood, and worship the way you please.

These people, including the military, need to grow a freakin' back bone. They are such victims. Poor little them. They should be ashamed of how immature they are handling this.

In a world that used to burn people with alternate religious views, these pagans have gotten quite wimpy. In fact, all people have become some kind of victim. They relish in it. They crave and love it. People have a complete disconnect from the reality of suffering and injustice if this is what rattles their cage.

I know, personally, a local pastor whose church's alter had a hardcore gay porn magazine placed on it. He threw it away and laughed at someones vane attempt to rattle his cage. It never made the news, and continues to make no difference in peoples attitude.

There are up to 27,000,000 SLAVES in the world, and people have the audacity to be offended at someones immature attempt to hurt feelings, AND THEN return in kind.

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
I suggest you look up what makes a hate crime different from a "regular" crime. It may surprise you, but there IS an actual, technical, and useful difference.

I understand the difference and still refute it's legitimacy and justness.

lemme put it this way... If i beat up Abe Braunsteen because he talked about my mom, then my problem is with Abe Braunsteen, I'm not going to be attacking someone else, and i'm guilty of assault and battery.

if I beat up Abe Braunsteen because he's a jew, however, then my problem is with him, his family, his neighbors, and any other jews, who are all equally likely to be targets of my assault. The danger I present to a community rather than an individual is why I would be presented with hate crime charges on top of the assault and battery charges.

Your example is not a point, as there are infinite reasons for crime and as many reasons for the crime to be perpetuated that do not include "hate crime" criteria.

If a poor man assaults and kills a man for money, does it make him not poor? Most likely not. Does it not also make him a danger to the community at large? Absolutely.

I'd also suggest that it is no more of an insult to be murdered for your shoes or your wallet or your car than the color of your skin or religious/sexual preference.

In the end, the result is the same, therefore the actions are the same, which means the repercussions should remain the same.

reply to post by KrazyJethro

Your example is not a point, as there are infinite reasons for crime and as many reasons for the crime to be perpetuated that do not include "hate crime" criteria.

I agree with your statement.

Motive for a murder (or any crime) is not an excuse, nor does it make the crime any more severe.

Motivation for a crime is used to solve and prosecute crimes not to add on as another offense on top of the original offense.

If I hate Mexicans and I hate them enough to kill(premeditated) one of them that I see dating someone of my race, it makes me no difference if I killed him for the same reason (jealousy and ignorance) but not specifically because of his race.

Hate-crime laws are thought-crime laws because they tack on extra punishment for the same crime based on the perpetrators particular thoughts on a protected subgroup of society.

"You are sentenced to 15 years in prison, but since you hate black people, which led to your crime, we will make that 25 years."