Air Force Christians To Be Persecuted For Hate Crime?

The cross can also be a pagan symbol, so I guess their complaint has no grounds:

crosses were used as symbols of the Babylonian Sun-god...It should be stated that Constantine was a Sun-god worshipper...The evidence is thus complete, that the Lord was put to death upon and upright stake, and not on two pieces of timber placed at any angle.

Good luck to them trying prove a hate crime considering the source of the symbol.

Originally posted by djvexd
Anytime vandilism or any other "crime" is done with a prejudice against a religion, faith, sex, or race it IS a hate crime.

In technical terms, yes. Even though it's technically correct doesn't mean the entire idea of hate crimes is fundamentally stupid (in the extreme) and a good example of poor thinking/reasoning.

I understand what you are saying in that to define what we can of a hate crime as with defining stereotypes. You are absolutley correct. However this falls squarely under the wrong column IMHO.

Perhaps, but who cares. It's petty and not worthy of serious non-internal punishment. I dare anyone to try to prove otherwise.

This school intentionally set this worship spot and dedicated it to Wiccans to allow them to worship and be open about thier beliefs. A few bad apples decided to impose either thier warped views or this was just a simple act of "Break.com" vandalism. Either way this is crap. The Judeo-Christian religions and Islam are not the only ones in this world that deserve protection.

Protecting religious freedom through thought crime or preferential criminal law is frivolous and ridiculous to anyone caring one whit about liberty, justice, or equal protection of the law.

Who's rights did this violate and/or what property was damaged or was deprived the use of?

No one's and none.

Like I said in the other thread:

This is an act of Christian Terrorism, committed by radical Christian Terrorists, in order to invoke fear and show that the next time it will be a pagan on that cross in what the Christians consider a "Holy War"

Originally posted by whatukno
Like I said in the other thread:

This is an act of Christian Terrorism, committed by radical Christian Terrorists, in order to invoke fear and show that the next time it will be a pagan on that cross in what the Christians consider a "Holy War"

Unless you have something to back this up, I call Shenanigans.

Seriously, you probably put more thought into creating that weird comment than went into this poorly executed stunt. Christian Terrorism, really? That's insanely strong, and I really hope you aren't serious.

Peace
KJ

reply to post by KrazyJethro

Seriously, you probably put more thought into creating that weird comment than went into this poorly executed stunt. Christian Terrorism, really? That's insanely strong, and I really hope you aren't serious.

Really? Tell me, who is it that blows up Abortion Clinics, who is it that protests at military funerals, who is it that want segregation and hate others besides white people?

Yes, I stand by my remarks, it's a clear act of Christian Terrorism. Carried out by extremist Christian terrorists.

Not to mention:

Weapons of a holy war.

[edit on 2/5/2010 by whatukno]

Originally posted by whatukno
Really? Tell me, who is it that blows up Abortion Clinics, who is it that protests at military funerals, who is it that want segregation and hate others besides white people?

Actually that was one group of a radical Christian cult that came from an independent Baptist church. Anyone can apply for the proper government paperwork to open a church, and many do so with no oversight of a greater church body, 9 times in 10 they start an Independent Baptist Church.

As I showed above, and as pagans just love to rub Christians noses in, the fact is that the cross is a pagan symbol anyway. You cannot have it both ways, you either can try to pick on Christians for this act, or you can accept that maybe there were some Babylonian Sun worshipers taking advantage of their rights to worship in the pagan area of that facility.

I know its more fun to knock Christians though, which is why we have an anti-Christian post on the first page of every thread regardless of topic. Generates lots of stars for the poster as well, eh? You guys are just so cool, can I be like you someday and be so anti-establishment? You’re such rebels…


[edit on 2/5/2010 by defcon5]

reply to post by defcon5

As I showed above, and as pagans just love to rub Christians noses in, the fact is that the cross is a pagan symbol anyway. You cannot have it both ways, you either can try to pick on Christians for this act, or you can accept that maybe there were some Babylonian Sun worshipers taking advantage of their rights to worship in the pagan area of that facility.

What the cross was, and what it is now are two different things. The cross now symbolizes the brutal death of a Jewish Carpenter/Prophet 2000 years ago.

It has been burned on lawns as a symbol of fear and intimidation.

And that is what these Christian Terrorists did this time, used the cross as a symbol of fear and intimidation.

Originally posted by whatukno
It has been burned on lawns as a symbol of fear and intimidation.

And that is what these Christian Terrorists did this time, used the cross as a symbol of fear and intimidation.

Did you look at the picture of the supposed cross?
It looks more like someone broke a piece of fence and leaned it up against a rock. Hardly the same thing as what you are talking about. Maybe you should wait on the investigation before you go spouting off such rash judgments of the situation. For all you know the pagans could have put it there to get the Christians in trouble, I mean it only takes about 5 minutes in places like ATS to see how deep the hatred of Christianity runs.

reply to post by defcon5

Did you look at the picture of the supposed cross?
It looks more like someone broke a piece of fence and leaned it up against a rock. Hardly the same thing as what you are talking about.

They probably got caught before they got to set it on fire in their white robes.

Originally posted by whatukno
They probably got caught before they got to set it on fire in their white robes.

You’re making a pretty big stretch trying to compare the racists organization who did the stuff you’re talking about, and Christians…

They will not be "Persecuted" hopefully though they will be "Prosecuted" for a hate cime because it was just that. If it's written off as a joke I can't wait to see what the next "joke " is and who it's played on

reply to post by defcon5

You’re making a pretty big stretch trying to compare the racists organization who did the stuff you’re talking about, and Christians…

Not really that much of a stretch, the KKK are a Christian organization...

Bringing a Message of Hope and Deliverance to White Christian America!

So no, it's not a stretch. But it is an over-exaggeration on my part. Imagine if you will, that a Muslim group had done something to a Christian sacred area, people would be shouting from the rooftops "TERRORISTS!". but because it's a Christian group, doing this to a Pagan group, it needs to be downplayed with reason and shown that it wasn't a big deal.

Do you see the hypocrisy?

As a practicing Wiccan I can say this is an ugly thing. What the cross meant to pagans isn't the same as what it is now. That cross, if laid by Christian, is not appropriate. My circles are sacred to me and only my symbolism and my feelings enter it. See what you fail to understand is that even if it was a joke it isn't taken as one to the Pagans who worship there. I bet you if I put a pentagram inside the Christian church here people would have an enormous fit and would talk about hate but when you do it to the silly little pagans it isn't a big deal

-Kyo

Originally posted by KrazyJethro
It's petty and not worthy of serious non-internal punishment. I dare anyone to try to prove otherwise.

I cannot help but take note of the fact that members who would identify themselves as Conservative...and quite likely Christians as well, are the ones blowing this off as a non-event.

While those who self-identify as Pagan or Wiccan that are taking serious offence at these circumstances. I would say that they are entitled to feel attacked, and as we are well aware, the harassment of religious minorities is always the first step towards more profound oppression.

Freedom of worship is a fundamental right. Those who chose to desecrate the site should be publicly shamed, and if it takes 'Hate Laws' to do so...well then, the next group of cross-bearing arses might just think twice.

How come so many Christians seem to have trouble acting like Christ?

Originally posted by whatukno

Yes, I stand by my remarks, it's a clear act of Christian Terrorism. Carried out by extremist Christian terrorists.

Let's take my objections in order of importance to this topic.

1) I didn't ask you to stand by them. There is no position to stand behind unless you back it up.

2) If you want to get into a discussion on how terrible Christians are, it'll be a long and pointless thread. We all know there are Fundamental and Extremist Christians in America and always have been, although I tend to think they are growing smaller in number so their outrageous behavior strikes a more obvious contrast to that of normal, rational, and legal actions.

3) You seem to be seeing what I do not see. How is something as small as this considered as dastardly and part of some greater plot?

You are stretching your own credulity quite far and giving no basis for why you are saying it ABOUT THIS ACT.

Peace
KJ

That's about right.

Originally posted by IntastellaBurst

People just look for a reason to get angry these days dont they, ..... just pick up the freagin cross, throw it outside, and get on with your activities !!

no one ever really grows up, they just use bigger words, ...... people are still running around saying " Teacher, he called me stupid" .... or " your on the wrong page dumbazz"

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck
I cannot help but take note of the fact that members who would identify themselves as Conservative...and quite likely Christians as well, are the ones blowing this off as a non-event.

True, as expected. Consistancy has never been big in the American political or religious landscape. But Johnny my boy, I'm hoping that your comments were general as I am an atheist and have no love for Christianity in any way.

While those who self-identify as Pagan or Wiccan that are taking serious offence at these circumstances. I would say that they are entitled to feel attacked, and as we are well aware, the harassment of religious minorities is always the first step towards more profound oppression.

I wouldn't say this was a good thing by any means, but I'd also say they need to thicken their skin a bit more. We atheists, thankfully, don't have any "sacred" places. Otherwise ours would have been "desecrated" many times and far worse than this by the same parties of god.

Freedom of worship is a fundamental right. Those who chose to desecrate the site should be publicly shamed, and if it takes 'Hate Laws' to do so...well then, the next group of cross-bearing arses might just think twice.

This is nonsense, pure and simple. Hate crime legislation is the bane of equal protection and liberty. We may speak and worship as we please freely but if we commit a crime the thought behind it should increase our punishment should it fit into certain criteria?

Rubbish. There has been no logical or reasonable argument for the existence of hate crime laws to date, and there never will be. It's emotionalism, nothing more.

How come so many Christians seem to have trouble acting like Christ?

Because they never removed the Old Testament from the bible. The bible can be used as it is seen fit since it seems to have serious conflict between the two testaments. You may stone your children for disrespect but you must love one who kills or steals from you.

Ridiculous dogma to be kind.

Oh for goodness sakes.

Pick up a broom and swept it out.

Its a patch of dirt under the sky. The space is what YOU make of it.

Originally posted by KyoZero
As a practicing Wiccan I can say this is an ugly thing. What the cross meant to pagans isn't the same as what it is now. That cross, if laid by Christian, is not appropriate. My circles are sacred to me and only my symbolism and my feelings enter it. See what you fail to understand is that even if it was a joke it isn't taken as one to the Pagans who worship there. I bet you if I put a pentagram inside the Christian church here people would have an enormous fit and would talk about hate but when you do it to the silly little pagans it isn't a big deal

-Kyo

reply to post by KrazyJethro

3) You seem to be seeing what I do not see. How is something as small as this considered as dastardly and part of some greater plot?

You are stretching your own credulity quite far and giving no basis for why you are saying it ABOUT THIS ACT.

Because it's a sacred place for people who practice a religion, a religion that is protected by the constitution. We have the freedom of religion in this country and that means the freedom to not have our sacred places violated in an unholy manor.

Would it be ok for me to go into a Catholic church and have sex on the alter? Forcing my beliefs onto a sacred place where Catholics practice their religion? In all good taste I would never intentionally desecrate the sacred places of others. I have respect for other people and their beliefs, but if it is true that a Christian group in fact did this to a sacred place of worship for Pagans that is indeed a terrorist act, given the history between Pagans and Christians, it's is nothing short of a direct threat.

That place must now be righteously cleansed, and those that worship there must now fear reprisals from people who obviously don't respect their beliefs. Maybe next time it won't be a cross, maybe next time someone will be hurt, maybe next time someone will be killed. Given history between Christians and Pagans, it's not an unlikely scenario.

[edit on 2/5/2010 by whatukno]

The entire UNIVERSE is sacred.

With friends like these, who needs enemies?