If the intent was to deface the Pagan's place of worship, then its a hate crime.

If the intent was to "witness" and "spread the Gospel" there are better ways to do it.

desecrating anyones holy place is a hate crime.... I have dealt with these religious nut cases over the years because my beliefs are native american... and i tell you what I have little to no patience woth this kind of ignorance...

My place of worship is my car.

And the parking police desecrated/defaced it by putting the unholy of unholiest on it, a parking ticket.

This totally defaced my shrine and caused my religion to almost collapse.

Who are ANY OF YOU to question my religious beliefs?

Hypocrites, bigots, I say!

This is all pro-Christian pro-Pagan pro-Jew propaganda.

And Anti-Carinism. Which is my religion. Carinism. Our church is a car. Don't question it, it's my Faith.

Guys.

For one minute can we be reasonable?

There is NO SUCH THING as a "Hate Crime"!!!

Either it was Vandalism or it wasn't. SIMPLE.

My Car in Heaven you people drive me nuts sometimes! (Puns Intended!)

Originally posted by muzzleflash
There is NO SUCH THING as a "Hate Crime"!!!

I have to agree. Considering the premise behind "hate crimes" is foolish and at odds with equal protection, this can not be a "hate crime".

You might as well just call it a "thought crime" and be done with it. I would call it petty vandalism at best, something the AFA could handle internally.

They will, of course, make a federal case out of it. Some Christians, of course, will claim persecuted status.

I love religion. It really brings out the best in people.

Colorado Springs, the location for the Air Force Academy, has some large Christian organizations in it, like Focus on the Family. Any visitor to the Academy can leave this marker. There will likely be no one come forward to claim their lumber, and no one to prosecute. It's just news. It isn't the first time that one religion has confronted another. As we focus on this, let us remember the 16 year old girl that was buried alive by her Muslim parents as an "honor killing" in Turkey.

In a relative sense, the cross at the pagan site is probably not even interesting news. Likely, the Academy grounds were dedicated to Christ by an Air Force or Army Chaplain at the opening ceremonies in the 50s.

Perhaps the Christians were just trying to "deny ignorance."

This is a disturbing article but I must point out that the DoD is a representation of the public mindset. Air Force policy is constantly changed in minor ways to accomidate the changing viewpoints and lifestyles of the Airmen entering the service. Do not think this is the view of all Airmen or the Air Force entirely, merely a quick snapshot of the current generation of 1%'ers in the military that make policy for the other 99%.

Originally posted by LibertyLover
Of course it was a hate crime.

Two things.

1) You are giving legitimacy to the notion that Hate Crime is an idea that is rational and somehow worse than normal crimes that should give additional penalty for. An unequal prospect to be kind.

2) This view puts the lie to your screen name.

Fundy Christians hate other religious groups, especially any that don't bow down to their particular version of God. They get particularly exercised about Pagans of any stripe. They really don't believe in freedom of religion or that people should be allowed to worship, or not, as they like.

That's a pretty broad brush to paint with, but I tend to think this is reasonably accurate of most religions that have god/gods.

Leaving a cross within the stone cirlce intended for pagan worshippers was a deliberate action and intended to cause offense and disquiet to the pagan community at the Air Force Academy. That's a hate crime.

How do you know this?

If the persons who carried out this act are cadets and/or Air Force personnel, they should be subject to whatever punishment is meted out to service members who transgress the honor code. If that is a court marshal offense, then ok. If the people were civilians in the employ of the Air Force or civilians from the community, then they should be prosecuted at the federal level for a hate crime.

That's pretty harsh for what amounts to petty vandalism don't you think?

I'm unpersuaded that it might be a witnessing attempt. Pagans know about Christianity for goodness sake and aren't interested in it.

If it was a "witnessing" attempt, it was a poor one. I'm more inclined to believe it was a petty joke.

[edit on 4-2-2010 by KrazyJethro]

Hate Crime? There is no such animal. Something is either a crime or it is not.

So what is the crime? Someone left something somewhere. It didn't damage anything, it didn't deprive anyone of the use of their facilities. It didn't incite acts of violence. So what is the crime? Someone's feelings got hurt because someone else expressed an opinion?

This is madness. What next? The hate crime of not converting to Islam because it might hurt their feelings if we are infidels? Where does it stop.

At worst it was a prank. Let it go and do something that matters, like catching real criminals.

Hate Crime? There is no such animal. Something is either a crime or it is not.

So what is the crime? Someone left something somewhere. It didn't damage anything, it didn't deprive anyone of the use of their facilities. It didn't incite acts of violence. So what is the crime? Someone's feelings got hurt because someone else expressed an opinion?

This is madness. What next? The hate crime of not converting to Islam because it might hurt their feelings if we are infidels? Where does it stop.

At worst it was a prank. Let it go and do something that matters, like catching real criminals.

Sadly, this is just a continuation of a long line of theft and suppression of other religions. Christianity's whole history is based on this. How do you think they choose the sites of their churches? They stole them from the pagan peoples and built their churches on the people's ritual sites. Many of their saints? Pagan gods. Their holidays? The same. Thou shall not steal or murder doesn't seem to have applied in relation to the church itself.

Nothing new here. Just rampant disrespect, theft, and a complete disregard of an other's freedom while they scream bloody murder when someone dares to not say Merry Christmas to them or refuses to nail the rules they stole from yet another people's religion (Judaism) on public, shared property.

And before I get the "you can't judge all Christians blah blah", obviously not all modern Christians would do such a thing. I personally know several devout Christians who truly try to live the good parts of their book, and I respect them. But the fact remains, this is the history of Christianity, and it isn't pretty. And this behavior is NOTHING new.

Originally posted by LordBucket
Even if it was, look at how it would be perceived in the reverse situation: Imagine a wooden pentagram constructed in a christian church. Even if it was built by non-pagan high school students purely as a joke...I seriously doubt christians would laugh it off as a joke. They would be calling it satan worshippers, and many of them would be very angry.

I couldn't care less how it would be perceived in reverse, my opinion would be the same. It is a petty and, basically, victimless "crime" that neither deprived anyone of their rights or damaged or deprived use of any property.

The last thing I concern myself with is what Christians get their panties in a bunch over.

I simply propose that we apply Matthew 7:1 here.

In the manner that christians would judge an act perpetrated upon them, let them be judged in the same manner when that act is perpetrated by them.

I am not Christian, so by that standard applied to me I would not make a federal case over something so petty and, ultimately, failing to do anything damaging to anyone.

At all.

That having been said...looking at the picture in the article...personally I'm not certain I'd even have recognized it as a cross if somebody hadn't told me it was one. Hard to say. It's angled in the picture. It might look a lot more like a cross standing upright. Difficult to see how long it is in the picture.

It's a cross, but again, I'm not sure why anyone would care. This is not a matter to be concerned with and is beyond a non-issue.

People just look for a reason to get angry these days dont they, ..... just pick up the freagin cross, throw it outside, and get on with your activities !!

no one ever really grows up, they just use bigger words, ...... people are still running around saying " Teacher, he called me stupid" .... or " your on the wrong page dumbazz"

Originally posted by brainwrek
You would feel the same way if someone "accidentally" left a bible that had been used as toilet paper on the front steps of a church too right?

I would. It would be, at best, littering.

What a terrible and supremely damaging act.

It's just a book, in the same way that the American flag is just cloth.

Anytime vandilism or any other "crime" is done with a prejudice against a religion, faith, sex, or race it IS a hate crime. I understand what you are saying in that to define what we can of a hate crime as with defining stereotypes. You are absolutley correct. However this falls squarely under the wrong column IMHO. This school intentionally set this worship spot and dedicated it to Wiccans to allow them to worship and be open about thier beliefs. A few bad apples decided to impose either thier warped views or this was just a simple act of "Break.com" vandalism. Either way this is crap. The Judeo-Christian religions and Islam are not the only ones in this world that deserve protection.

[edit on 4-2-2010 by djvexd]

[edit on 4-2-2010 by djvexd]